Easterner9504
SOC-13
The Scout Service uses AHL class Cruisers for cross border work. Also 2000t Quasar and Macchi class Scout Cruisers.
Scout vessels
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
Major B
SOC-14 1K
CT Supplement 7 supports your idea of type S riders (though the Donosev is not mentioned). It doesn't conflict with the Supplement 9 info supplied by Far Trader:
(page 15) "In some areas, an exploratory cruiser of perhaps 10,000 tons will carry a squadron of ten or more scout/couriers. As the cruiser passes through an area, individual scout/couriers will range ahead or to the flanks and perform actual data gathering missions."
IMTU the Scouts aren't so integrated with the Navy although they hold the rank of warrant officer during time of war. Most of their ships are Scout specific designs with little immediate military value.
Sulies - monitor jump routes and catalog hazards to navigation; personnel transport
200dT Scout leaders - support Sulies with more lab space, cargo, and weapons; longer on station time with more crew
Donosevs - chart new jump routes and routine system surveys, best sensors available
400dT Lab ships - long duration planetary surveys
1000dT Scout retriever - search and rescue, can lift a Sulie from a crash site; 1-2 per sector
1000dT Tender - on station fuel and provision support with limited repair capability
1200dT Deep space surveyor - long range surveys and first contact missions
Sulies - monitor jump routes and catalog hazards to navigation; personnel transport
200dT Scout leaders - support Sulies with more lab space, cargo, and weapons; longer on station time with more crew
Donosevs - chart new jump routes and routine system surveys, best sensors available
400dT Lab ships - long duration planetary surveys
1000dT Scout retriever - search and rescue, can lift a Sulie from a crash site; 1-2 per sector
1000dT Tender - on station fuel and provision support with limited repair capability
1200dT Deep space surveyor - long range surveys and first contact missions
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Canon uses warrants in the UK sense for the imperium - senior non-coms - see AHL.
I'll also note that field scouts are transfered to the bureaucracy at IS-x where x=terms, so field scouts are effectively enlisted personell.
Well they do "enlist" and there are no commissions in the Scouts. But I don't like the idea that some Navy non-com could conceivably out rank the master of his own ship and be authorized to direct his activities even in time of war. Having them Warrant Officers, they would fall under Navy officer command but with the "prestige" of a title that carries respect and instantaneous recognition of their skill and experience.
With rank comes authority and relegating Scouts, even junior ones, to a rank without some level of "prestige" would place them in an uncomfortable and sometimes detrimental position with the other services. Completion of Scout business and control over their own assets would be forfeit when even a mid-level enlisted man in any of the other services decided he knew best.
With rank comes authority and relegating Scouts, even junior ones, to a rank without some level of "prestige" would place them in an uncomfortable and sometimes detrimental position with the other services. Completion of Scout business and control over their own assets would be forfeit when even a mid-level enlisted man in any of the other services decided he knew best.
Easterner9504
SOC-13
My memory is Scouts get the rank of 01 in naval service. However they are enlisted in sense the Bureaucracy fulfills the officer function on the very large ships. (Technical Office/Scout Fleet Dept)
What they give the Navy is a pool of ready trained pilots with navigators and engineers too. Easily allowing the IN to get mothballed ships into service quickly. I see the Scouts as analogs of USCG as they somewhat fulfill this function in peacetime as well as CIA, USPS & USGS.
What they give the Navy is a pool of ready trained pilots with navigators and engineers too. Easily allowing the IN to get mothballed ships into service quickly. I see the Scouts as analogs of USCG as they somewhat fulfill this function in peacetime as well as CIA, USPS & USGS.
"Warrants" as seen in AHL are just E7-E9. CPO-MCPO.
Which, by the way, is pretty much the UK model.
You'd be far better off simply asserting O1, O3 if commanding a ship.
Respectfully, no. IMTU the Scouts retain the title of Warrant Officer into retirement (i.e. Detached duty). It's a badge of honor and allows him/her to still retain command of an Imperial asset (their Sulieman) and utilize military facilities. The title is special just like the job.
Say has any one tried to fully Cure a Type S for Survey or Exploration duty, they can't do a full job but make a good Advance Team or follow up vessel. from what I can figure their are 5 Cure Posts and 5 Science Posts on the ship
Cure Posts: Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic & Gunner, their Trav skills and jobs are self explanatory, the (primary) Pilot will likely double duty as the the Navagator
Science Posts: Astro-Sciences, Planetary Sciences, Life Sciences, Social Sciences/Contact Specialist & Tech-Sciences. now to work out the Skill sets for CT
Astro-Sciences, nothing in CT but Survey to run the sensors and Navigation as related skills, this guy is along to collect Stella Data and do the numbers on Planetary orbital data.
Planetary Sciences, Survey, this guy is along to take care of World Size, Hydrosphere and Atmosphere ratings and to map the land masses.
Life Sicences, no CT skills are applicable but Medic is related, more useful on a Exploration mission than a Survey (unless he's going to declare a Bio-hazard Amber or Red Zone) all he will do is conform a Ag trade code.
Social Sciences/Contact Specialist, Admin/Legal & Laision, on a Survey mission he's along to figure the difference between permanent and transient Siphonts so they get the Pop code right, also the determine Gov code and Law Level. On an Exploration Mission his job starts with "We Come in Peace, Take us to your Leader" and just gets bigger from there if the natives have a language more complex than "Oook!".
Tech-Sciences, Lots of Tech skills, for Survey missions he's there to get the Tech code (and Sub-code) right by making sure the locals aren't trying to inflate it by importing lots of tech and specialists.
obviously a lot of cross training will go on to make 4 people do 10 jobs and provide back ups for each job. the Navigator is kind of not required on a Type S so S/he will be the Astro-Sciences person and/or pilot, the Engineer is also a non-required post but good to have along on long missions and usually already has the Tech-Sciences skills, a good medic should have a good grounding in Life Sciences and the Gunner post is relativity non-demanding (compared to a Pilot/Astrophysicist or Medical Doctor/Xeno-biologist or Multi-Discipline Engineer) so expect him to fill multiple jobs outside his primary Crew Post or be the apprentice, the Pilot who also has one Science Qualification may be the apprentice if the crew already includes a Navagator/Astro-Sciences person.
Cure Posts: Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic & Gunner, their Trav skills and jobs are self explanatory, the (primary) Pilot will likely double duty as the the Navagator
Science Posts: Astro-Sciences, Planetary Sciences, Life Sciences, Social Sciences/Contact Specialist & Tech-Sciences. now to work out the Skill sets for CT
Astro-Sciences, nothing in CT but Survey to run the sensors and Navigation as related skills, this guy is along to collect Stella Data and do the numbers on Planetary orbital data.
Planetary Sciences, Survey, this guy is along to take care of World Size, Hydrosphere and Atmosphere ratings and to map the land masses.
Life Sicences, no CT skills are applicable but Medic is related, more useful on a Exploration mission than a Survey (unless he's going to declare a Bio-hazard Amber or Red Zone) all he will do is conform a Ag trade code.
Social Sciences/Contact Specialist, Admin/Legal & Laision, on a Survey mission he's along to figure the difference between permanent and transient Siphonts so they get the Pop code right, also the determine Gov code and Law Level. On an Exploration Mission his job starts with "We Come in Peace, Take us to your Leader" and just gets bigger from there if the natives have a language more complex than "Oook!".
Tech-Sciences, Lots of Tech skills, for Survey missions he's there to get the Tech code (and Sub-code) right by making sure the locals aren't trying to inflate it by importing lots of tech and specialists.
obviously a lot of cross training will go on to make 4 people do 10 jobs and provide back ups for each job. the Navigator is kind of not required on a Type S so S/he will be the Astro-Sciences person and/or pilot, the Engineer is also a non-required post but good to have along on long missions and usually already has the Tech-Sciences skills, a good medic should have a good grounding in Life Sciences and the Gunner post is relativity non-demanding (compared to a Pilot/Astrophysicist or Medical Doctor/Xeno-biologist or Multi-Discipline Engineer) so expect him to fill multiple jobs outside his primary Crew Post or be the apprentice, the Pilot who also has one Science Qualification may be the apprentice if the crew already includes a Navagator/Astro-Sciences person.
It also runs you into a term that is
(1) poorly implemented in real life
(2) has 4 distinct real world meanings, the least used of which you're mimicking
(3) puts the3m still below a rank 1 ensign who's usually going to be a term 1 wet-behind-the-ears incompetent.
You're far better off completely forgetting the term "warrant," avoiding pinning it down to any rank-equivalent, because the meaning of what you're proposing (even with US warrant style) means they are not only NOT going to be treated as officers by the navy, but the navy will send the most raw, inept, incompetent, and assinine ensigns to take command and the scouts will be unable to legally act against it.
Meanings of Warrant Officers
(1) UK Senior NCO grades - NOT officers except in pay.
(2) US "Enlisted man's specialization with officer-type supervision of enlisted men
(3) archaic use for any specialist - Doctor, Pilot, Cook - who were commissioned by the captain rather than the crown
(4) archaic use for acting-ensign passed midshipsmen -overlaps historically with meaning 3.
(5) misnomer for LDOs by ignorant press members.
Any of them except #5 is "Any ensign outranks him"
#5 to their face generally will testily correct you "I'm an (Ensign/Lieutenant/Commander) of (Engineering/Medical/Gunnery/Administration/etc)."
The term doesn't carry any meaning that puts them on par with real officers, and already has a canonical use (#1), and common connotation uses (#1, #2) that will prove confusion for many players.
The senior warrant officers of Napoleonic navies (Master, Doctor, Chaplain) messed with the lieutenants and gave orders to any non-officer. They were more the equivalent of staff officers than of NCOs. Master's Mates messed with the midshipmen and likewise gave orders to anyone the midshipmen gave orders to.
IMTU the Imperial Navy has a class of officers called Courtesy Officers: Chief <Specialist>, <Specialist>, and <Specialits>'s Mate. They rank (just under) Lt. Commanders, Liutenants, and Sublieutenants and can give orders to officers of the ranks below their own. They're always staff, neve line, of course.
Hans
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I served with a lot of warrant officers and no ensign was going to tell them to do anything. Full captains listened up when they spoke because everyone knew they were subject matter experts. A when a warrant was master of a vessel, he was its captain and no one gave orders onboard his boat regardless of rank.
As I stated earlier, scouts deserve a rank that denotes the years of service and expertise they have while not mixing them up with all the others, butter bars included.
As I stated earlier, scouts deserve a rank that denotes the years of service and expertise they have while not mixing them up with all the others, butter bars included.
You're conflating positional authority (Ship's master) with a misuse of understanding of rank. In the USN, ship command is NOT a function of rank. Command is a function of position, and while each position has a limited range of ranks allowed, the position is not itself a function of the rank, nor the rank a direct function of the position. (I know a rank-captain who's CO was a commander, for example. He was a staff officer (back in the days of staff/restricted-line/line, before the simplification to Line/LDO).
I Have seen warrants given orders by O1's... And those were followed. And I've seen CWO's listed as assistant engineers to O1's and O2's on WQSB's. But if you want to presume that a CWO, confronted with a formal order from a legitimate ranking officer, even an ensign, would ignore it, then we aren't in the same reality. Said CWO might ask for clarification, even explain why it's a bad idea, file a complaint with higher authority... but he will usually obey. And if he doesn't, he won't be a CWO for long. (And if the ensign's order was ill conceived but legal the ensign might not be an ensign for long, either.)
I've heard the same BS about Sergeants Major... and heard it flatly denounced by the several Sergeants Major I count amongst my friends. They will inform the ensign/2lt that the order is a bad idea, but will do so quietly.
For that matter, few O1's are stupid enough to issue questionable but valid orders.
The scouts should NOT be warrant-grade equivalent- it's the wrong term, the wrong mode, and the least believable of possible approaches.
Just make it positional authority, or make them commissioned officer equivalents, specific grade by position
I treat Scouts as Warrant Specialists, and Scouts in a Command position or those with enough seniority as Commissioned Specialists. scouts working solo (or in very limited numbers but dispersed in a larger command or project) as part of a joint forces assignment get made Commissioned Specialists for the duration with their "CS" grade dependant on qualifications and seniority
Any scout in command of a Hull massing less than 1Kt go by Skipper, command of a Hull over 1Kt or a squadron of hulls massing less than 2Kt Capitan and a squadron over 2Kt as Commodore.
Any scout in command of a Hull massing less than 1Kt go by Skipper, command of a Hull over 1Kt or a squadron of hulls massing less than 2Kt Capitan and a squadron over 2Kt as Commodore.
I'm almost certain that somewhere there is a canonical statement about how Scouts are treated when serving in/with the Imperial Navy, and I think that it's that they get treated as having the rank of an IN officer/crewman in the same job they're doing.
IMTU I simply give all Scouts IN reserve commisions/ratings commensurate with their seniority.
Hans
IMTU I simply give all Scouts IN reserve commisions/ratings commensurate with their seniority.
Hans
I'd be interested in seeing it. And Aramis, I'm not mistaking anything. The scouts are not the Coast Guard, they're not even like NOAA. But regardless of any RL comparison they are an independent Imperial service separate from the military and have no rank structure in the LBBs. Yet they command ships which somehow become IN assets during time of war.
So how does an IISS administrator ensure his top secret mission from X to Z doesn't get waylaid in route because of a brush war erupting in Y? Is there some sort of authorization that gives the scout passage without IN entanglements slowing him down?
Anyway, it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme; enjoy YTU and I'll enjoy mine. BTW, I recently cobbled together two lab ships to make an 800dT model; looks much more robust and space worthy than the OTU version. Have a nice day!
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
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