Running CT with just LBB 1-3

[creativehum]

By 1980, HG 2E, the Imperium is firmly a concept within the rules mechanics for character gen.

I'd love to hear more about this.

For me, the OTU is definitely creeping in... but not yet firmly a concept.

Page 1 in the General Background begins with this:

Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium) possessed of great industrial and technological might; but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the lmperium is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the lmperium allows a large degree of autonomy to i t s subject worlds, calling only for some respect for its overall policies, and for a united front against outside pressures.

The first sentence (as in Book 4) states clearly that the term Imperium is a generic term used for convenience. Outside of "this volume" the remote centralized government might be called something else entirely.

The next sentences do start nailing down assumptions about how the assumed, remote centralized government works in a manner exactly like GDW's Official Traveller Universe.

But, importantly, the book contains no specifics about the government in terms of dates, history, or geography. No proper nouns are given in the text. (At least as I have been able to find.) There is nothing in the book to suggest that the "the Imperium" as used in the volume is anything more than a generic notion for players to use to create characters mixing notions from a fantastic SF setting and ideas scooped up from real life military examples.

Compare this to the text of Background section on page one of the text of Book 6 Scouts:

BACKGROUND
In the last century before the end of The Long Night, the Sylean Federation began its coalescence into a powerful empire. A major force in this move into interstellar space was the Sylean Federation Scout Service. The SFSS was established with two main missions: first, the exploration of neighboring regions for the consequent contact or recontact of their inhabitants; and second, the use of advanced Sylean technology to lure these contacted planets into the growing Federation.

Largely due to the efforts of the Scouts, the Sylean Federation rapidly turned
into an empire - the Third Imperium. The Sylean Federation Scout Service became the lmperial Interstellar Scout Service: the IISS.

With the passage of time, however, the missions of the Scout Service have
evolved into different pursuits. The original assignment of recontact soon turned to one of actual discovery and exploration of new, unknown worlds. With the maturity of the Imperium, that mission lost importance, and newer ones have taken its place. In any analysis, the Scout Service is a survivor, changing its missions and evolving its structure in order to maintain its numbers and (some cynically say) its budget.

I am going to assume that the difference in the texts is stark enough that I don't have to explain the differences, yes?

Furthermore, the text of Book 6 uses dates from the Imperial calendar. It mentions the Spinward Marches. Regina, capital of the Regina subsector is described in detail.

Again, I don't think I need to point out how different this is in approach to the text of Book 5.

* * *

To put things plainly, I've come up with this notion:

Let's say someone wanting to play an SF RPG game picks up Traveller Books 1-5. He reads them. He now has more than enough information to create his own setting, utilizing the implied setting details from the text and rules, combined with his own reference of SF literature and movies and TV. (He must introduce that last clause of that sentence, as there are no concrete details of any sort about the setting of play in any of the books.)

In other words, the Referee assumes (correctly) that he has everything he needs to play and needs nothing else to play. The five books provide a toolkit for the Referee to go off an build whatever sort of environment he or she wants for the players. Even the bits of background introduces into Books 4 and 5 can be jettisoned without concern, since there is no real consequence to dumping said notions. (The core premise of all things Classic Traveller is that the speed of communication does not exceed the speed of travel. As long as this is held firm, then tweaks in the assumptions of the implied setting from text and rules will probably be fine.)

Now lets say the Referee picks up Book 6.

Please look at the quoted section above.

Again, I think we can see the stark difference.

As soon as the Referee reads those paragraphs, one thing becomes very clear to him or her:

"This is no longer complete."

There's a "Long Night." A "Sylean Federation." There is no longer a "generic" Imperium used as a convenience for text, but instead a specific Imperium -- that has matured. (Maybe I didn't want a mature Imperium? Well, too bad. Up until Book 5 you could have any kind of Imperium you wanted. But now... not so much.) You now know this specific, named Imperium is about 1,100 years old. There's a thing called the Spinward Marches... and so on.

Now, is the game set of six Books still complete? No. Because all these things you need to know about are not really defined. There are hints of things ("Matured" -- how much? What does that mean?) but not really any concrete details that will help a Referee in creating the setting that, by all accounts, now exists as it never existed before the Referee bought Book 6.

The key here is that of course LOTS of details were left undefined in Books 1-5. But that was fine because the details were his to define. There was nothing specific enough for him to not know enough about, because no concrete, specific setting details (history, names, geography, and so on...) showed up at all.


Now, for me, the difference is clear. I honestly don't see how one can look at the two books and not see the differences between them.

However, I'm willing to assume I might be missing something. I look forward to any specifics you provide.

 

[aramis]

I'd love to hear more about this.

For me, the OTU is definitely creeping in... but not yet firmly a concept.

Page 1 in the General Background begins with this:


The first sentence (as in Book 4) states clearly that the term Imperium is a generic term used for convenience. Outside of "this volume" the remote centralized government might be called something else entirely.

The next sentences do start nailing down assumptions about how the assumed, remote centralized government works in a manner exactly like GDW's Official Traveller Universe.

But, importantly, the book contains no specifics about the government in terms of dates, history, or geography. No proper nouns are given in the text. (At least as I have been able to find.) There is nothing in the book to suggest that the "the Imperium" as used in the volume is anything more than a generic notion for players to use to create characters mixing notions from a fantastic SF setting and ideas scooped up from real life military examples.

Compare this to the text of Background section on page one of the text of Book 6 Scouts:



I am going to assume that the difference in the texts is stark enough that I don't have to explain the differences, yes?

Furthermore, the text of Book 6 uses dates from the Imperial calendar. It mentions the Spinward Marches. Regina, capital of the Regina subsector is described in detail.

Again, I don't think I need to point out how different this is in approach to the text of Book 5.

lets look at the actual text in full quote:

Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium) possessed of great industrial and technological might; but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the lmperium is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the lmperium allows a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, calling only for some respect for its overall policies, and for a united front against outside pressures.

To monitor the space lanes, the lmperium maintains a Navy. Because these
forces can never be everywhere at once, local provinces (subsectors) also maintain navies, as do individual worlds. This three tiered structure of Imperial, subsector, and planetary navies produces a flexible system for patrolling space, while putting the limited resources of the lmperium to best use.

High Guard deals with the navies of the Imperium, of subsectors, and of worlds.​

It says there is an imperium. The Imperium has a navy. It's subsectors maintain their own navies. Its worlds may maintain their own Navies.

There are three different navies under one generation system, and differences in in the process for each. The rules presuppose some form of central academies for the Navy (by virtue of having an Academy option), and of dedicated naval flight schools (again, in CGen), and of medical schools (again, in CGen.)

There's actually a lot of nascent 3I creeping in via character gen in Bk 5. It's not the "3I" yet - but it's an imperium as the default rules assumption. Despite similar wording in the fluff text, it's mechaically MUCH stronger a brush-stroke towards the 3I than Bk 4 had.

(Book 6 explicitly goes into the IISS of the 3I.)

 

[creativehum]

Again, the text clearly states tats the term "Imperium" will be used in "this volume" for the assumed, remote centralized government of the game. The text then uses the term Imperium. No surprises there.

Again, while I did not quote the full passage, everything you quote falls under what I wrote about here: the next sentences "do start nailing down assumptions about how the assumed, remote centralized government works in a manner exactly like GDW's Official Traveller Universe. "

So I agree with you about that.

All I can say after that is that there is no mention of any proper nouns, names, dates, geography, or history.

Creeping in, yes.

I wrote that it was in 1983 in Book 6 that the OTU was firmly stapled into the Books of Traveller.

Looking at the text of Book 5 and Book 6, and the contrast between them, I'm still more than comfortable with that statement.

I'm more than willing to accept the fact that you see things differently.

 

[aramis]

Note that the first article specifically about the 3I predates the publication of Bk 5. It's the Emperor's list...

 

[creativehum]

Note that the first article specifically about the 3I predates the publication of Bk 5. It's the Emperor's list...

Yes. What you wrote is true.

I'm not sure how this pertains to the posts at hand.

Unless you are assuming that anyone who bought Book 5 was responsible for also having a subscription to JTAS so they could begin putting all the pieces together?

Honest question: Are you assuming this?

Because, again, anyone with Traveller Books 1-5 and nothing else could play the game just fine, without any Traveller materials... no Supplements, no Adventures, no JTAS, no need to read White Dwarf articles. As Miller has said in numerous articles, the game was designed without a setting attached and it was assumed that the players would make their own setting.

And since, in Book 5, there is no specific mention of a specific setting, this assumption still holds true for the first five Books. Anyone who had only those five books with no knowledge of other Traveller products would never know there was more to buy or more they had to learn about to play the game.

The fact that the house setting was underway at GDW does not change this fact.

In Book 6, as noted with quotes from the text above, this changes. At this point, playing Traveller is playing in GDW's Third Imperium. There are setting details mentioned -- names, dates, history, geography. Players who want to understand these references are sent scrambling to buy more products.

And the hobby of playing shifts... because it is one thing to have a set of rules and a house setting on the side (like Dungeons & Dragons did in its early years and through most editions), and another to say, "The Rules and the Setting are conflated," (like Shadowrun, for example.)

So, I ask again, are you saying anyone who picked up the early Traveller Books was obliged to go buy other material to know that the OTU was creeping into the game?

And I ask: Can you see at all the distinction between the text quoted above (by both myself and you) between what is found in Book 5 and Book 6. Because, again, the difference is stark and I'm honestly confused what you're arguing for or against.

 

[GypsyComet]

are you saying anyone who picked up the early Traveller Books was obliged to go buy other material to know that the OTU was creeping into the game?

Those were heady days in role playing. "Obliged" was not the feeling of the day among the fan base. Loren has said since that the fans and players were in fact clamoring for those bits and pieces of setting. There are solid reasons why Dragon, Different Worlds, and White Dwarf all had steady supplies of Traveller material, and why the game had active licensees. Baked in settings are blase' now, but that was not the case in 1980.

 

[creativehum]

Those were heady days in role playing. "Obliged" was not the feeling of the day among the fan base. Loren has said since that the fans and players were in fact clamoring for those bits and pieces of setting. There are solid reasons why Dragon, Different Worlds, and White Dwarf all had steady supplies of Traveller material, and why the game had active licensees. Baked in settings are blase' now, but that was not the case in 1980.

Without doubt. RPG publishers were publishing to fill consumer demand.

Nonetheless, this is neither here nor there for the particular topic at hand:
In Book 6 GDW stapled the OTU into the Rules (that is, the Traveller Books) for the first time.

My point is not about whether the consumers wanted more or not, but about how the text of the Books changed over time. Aramis, in his previous post, noted that the Emperors of the Imperium article came out before Book 5 (2nd). My question stands: how does that matter unless it is assumed everyone was buying and reading everything Traveller related?

Certainly it was assumed by GDW that everyone was reading all things Traveller related. That's why the nature of the text in the Traveller Books changed over time, culminating with the text of Book 6 which staples the OTU directly into a book for the first time.

And that's my only point: Things changed.

[Edited to Add: Many of the articles in the magazines were not tied to the OTU, but were expansions and ideas for the game itself. In the same way, may of the Amber Zone articles in the JTAS, as well as the Adventures and Double Adventures, could be plucked from the OTU and used by a Referee in any setting. In my view, this kind of material is very useful for a Referee.]

 

[GypsyComet]

[Edited to Add: Many of the articles in the magazines were not tied to the OTU, but were expansions and ideas for the game itself. In the same way, may of the Amber Zone articles in the JTAS, as well as the Adventures and Double Adventures, could be plucked from the OTU and used by a Referee in any setting. In my view, this kind of material is very useful for a Referee.]

Some of those older Amber Zones still don't have an OTU home. Some were written that way on purpose.

 

[creativehum]

Some of those older Amber Zones still don't have an OTU home. Some were written that way on purpose.

Without doubt.

 

[mike wightman]

The CT early adventures, even the Spinward Marches supplement, don't really fill in much about the detail of the 'distant Imperium'.

It could be argued that the third Imperium has never actually been described properly at all...

 

[Murph]

Excellent, I like to add Books 4-5-6, but have my own universe, where most of the action takes place in a sector far, far, away. Mostly because using books 1-6 really fills things out, and the world generation rules in book 6 are invaluable. I like your article very much though.

Hi,

I'm the guy who wrote the blog.

The core of the blog is posts I originally made on this thread here on CotI. I think my views are cleaned up and better organized at the blog.

I've reworked some of the posts for the blog. I've also added new posts. And links to other bloggers in the same spirit of what I'm writing about.

I'm currently running a weekly game of Lamentations of the Flame Princess for some friends. (A kind of dark, weird fantasy setting in 17th century Europe.)

But Classic Traveller is our backup game if we don't have a quorum. We are in the middle of playing the Chamex Plague right now. I'm looking forward to going deeper into building my own setting and having a blast prepping it.

 

[GypsyComet]

It could be argued that the third Imperium has never actually been described properly at all...

For certain values of "never" and "proper", I suppose.

 

[whartung]

In Book 6, as noted with quotes from the text above, this changes. At this point, playing Traveller is playing in GDW's Third Imperium. There are setting details mentioned -- names, dates, history, geography. Players who want to understand these references are sent scrambling to buy more products.

Wait a second. Let me just be real clear here.

All of this hub bub is focused on the 2 paragraphs of light (and I mean really light, downright faint, I wouldn't even call it tinted) color that they stuck in to Book 6?

That these 2 paragraphs, out of 56 pages, somehow dramatically change the usefulness of this book? That with these 2 paragraphs, players are off "sent scrambling to buy more products" because they mentioned something called the "Sylean Federation"?

In the last century before the end of The Long Night, the Sylean Federation began its coalescence into a powerful empire. A major force in this move into interstellar space was the Sylean Federation Scout Service. The SFSS was established with two main missions: first, the exploration of neighboring regions for the consequent contact or recontact of their inhabitants; and second, the use of advanced Sylean technology to lure these contacted planets into the growing Federation.

Largely due to the efforts of the Scouts, the Sylean Federation rapidly turned into an empire - the Third Imperium. The Sylean Federation Scout Service became the lmperial Interstellar Scout Service: the IISS.

That's what this boils down to? The insertion of "Sylean Federation" and "The Long Night" somehow contaminates this entire book? These passing references. They disqualify this book from "pure" Traveller or something.

Out of 56 pages, those two paragraphs are the cancer that ruined everything. Just want to be clear that's what you're talking about here.

 

[creativehum]

Just want to be clear that's what you're talking about here.

No. That isn't what I'm talking about.

I'll unpack that...

I have said nothing about those paragraphs rendering the book useless. Nothing about a "contamination." Nothing about them being a "cancer." Or "ruining" everything.

None of that is what I'm talking about.

All I am saying, as I have repeated I believe twice before now, is that Book 6 is the book that introduces details of the OTU into the Books series for the first time, in contrast to the earlier Books. This means that the Books 1-5 did not refer to anything outside of themselves, and anything that wasn't defined was up to the Referee to define. Beginning for the first time with Book 6, GDW began referring to items from the OTU in the Books. The Traveller rules and the OTU were now stapled to each other in ways they had not been before.

This point was specifically in regard to Aramis saying, "By 1980, HG 2E, the Imperium is firmly a concept within the rules mechanics for character gen."

I disagreed with his point and explained why.

So, to be clear about what I was saying, the things you wanted to check to see if I was saying... I wasn't saying.

But it's the Internet... so stuff like this happens.

 

[rhialto]

All I am saying, as I have repeated I believe twice before now, is that Book 6 is the book that introduces details of the OTU into the Books series for the first time, in contrast to the earlier Books. This means that the Books did not refer to anything outside of themselves, and anything that wasn't defined was up to the Referee to define. Beginning for the for the first time with Book 6, GDW began referring to items from the OTU in the Books. The Traveller rules and the OTU were now stapled to each other in ways they had not been before.

This point was specifically in regard to Aramis saying, "By 1980, HG 2E, the Imperium is firmly a concept within the rules mechanics for character gen."

I disagreed with his point and explained why.

So, to be clear about what I was saying, the answer is no, the things you wanted to check to see if I was saying... I wasn't saying.

But it's the Internet... so stuff like this happens.

I've read and enjoyed all your blog posts and posts here, and it is clear to me. The ideas have also resonated with me, a relative newcomer to Traveller, in ways that all the discussions about the OTU have not. So thanks!

 

[aramis]

No. That isn't what I'm talking about.

I'll unpack that...

I have said nothing about those paragraphs rendering the book useless. Nothing about a "contamination." Nothing about them being a "cancer." Or "ruining" everything.

None of that is what I'm talking about.

All I am saying, as I have repeated I believe twice before now, is that Book 6 is the book that introduces details of the OTU into the Books series for the first time, in contrast to the earlier Books. This means that the Books 1-5 did not refer to anything outside of themselves, and anything that wasn't defined was up to the Referee to define. Beginning for the first time with Book 6, GDW began referring to items from the OTU in the Books. The Traveller rules and the OTU were now stapled to each other in ways they had not been before.

This point was specifically in regard to Aramis saying, "By 1980, HG 2E, the Imperium is firmly a concept within the rules mechanics for character gen."

I disagreed with his point and explained why.

So, to be clear about what I was saying, the things you wanted to check to see if I was saying... I wasn't saying.

But it's the Internet... so stuff like this happens.

Bk 5's entry is the first time the nature of the intended setting is revealed clearly in words. And it's backed up with mechanics. It postdates the first actual 3I article (Emperor's List), changes the ship paradigms and size ranges... sure, it's a vague little bit... but it's the point where the nascent OTU first takes rules form. Being blind to it by your own desire for it not to be true doesn't make it untrue.

A TU built with no reference to Bk5 and its derived materials (Sup7, Sup9, Adv5) looks very little like the OTU, but one built with just Bks 1-5 will look a lot more like the OTU than a Bk 1-3 Sup1,2,4 A1-4 game does.

Book 5 is key to the OTU feel, and its use imposes a lot of that feel, desired or not. As my players and I found out the hard way several times.

So, while it's weakly worded, the OTU is strongly encoded into the mechanics within.

 

[creativehum]

A TU built with no reference to Bk5 and its derived materials (Sup7, Sup9, Adv5) looks very little like the OTU, but one built with just Bks 1-5 will look a lot more like the OTU than a Bk 1-3 Sup1,2,4 A1-4 game does.

Absolutely.

 

[creativehum]

I've read and enjoyed all your blog posts and posts here, and it is clear to me. The ideas have also resonated with me, a relative newcomer to Traveller, in ways that all the discussions about the OTU have not. So thanks!

You're welcome!
Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Frankymole]

What???

Sorry, that link is to the latest post at all times (so changes). I meant the December the 9th post, specifically the section that begins with "For example, the Traveller Main World creation system is often criticized for not being “realistic” in terms of its astrophysics and for the random nature of the worlds which rarely produce “logical” worlds that humans would settle. In other words, the lack of “realism” is seen as a bug in the design. Many people have spent a lot of time rebuilding the system to be “realistic”–to reflect astrophysics and to make the choice of human habitats for settlements more reasonable. The point is to create a collection of about 40 worlds in a subsector ranging from rather rational to the ridiculous. In this way, the Referee is invited to participate in acts of invention and the Players, trapped in such inventions, are invited to invent extraordinary means of dealing with extraordinary problems. Now, where on the dial between the rational and the ridiculous the Referee wants to set his dial is his business. My only point is that worlds in the unique and specific range of the one described above were the meat-and-potatoes of the SF writing that Miller drew from for Traveller. And this means there’s nothing “broken” about the Main World generation system. It is doing exactly what it is designed to do."

 

[creativehum]

To clarify:
My "What?" was about the thrill I felt having Miller link to my blog. I got all Fan Boy for a moment.