Rule: Items costs are lower at higher production tech: Feedback please

[Bishop Odo]

I would like some feedback on using a rule I found, in a T20 game. In GURPS Far trader there is a rule that states: Items that are produced at Tech levels higher than the item itself are cheaper. The first tier or level higher are 50% cheaper, and next tier higher are an additional 25% cheaper, because of the cost of production is cheaper at higher levels. I can only conclude that this includes all items and not services, so starships and weapons gain the price break. I have not been able to find a similar rule in other Traveller edition I have available.

Without doing a great deal amount of research or mock up, the cost of living or even the price of a starship appears to be prohibitive expensive. After all a ship is not a house that appreciates, yes it earns income, but it has tremendous risks and costs. Looking at my CT ship designs many have extreme monthly deficits. GT may have more detailed economic system of costs in the main rules, but I have neglected to purchase that product, as of yet. On the surface the above rule appears to help level out he cost of living or at least the cost of the ship.

As a Game Master I like to motivate the player trough character background and duty, not financial necessity. I hate Clichés, especially the broken ship one. I like to focus on the story, plots and try to build a trusting relationship with the players. Ideally I like to create primers, which describe the current situation of the gaming area and any changes I have made to the universe, include definitions and descriptions of technology, i.e. part of the fusion reactor and bits of the Starship manual. This gives the players a feeling participation and an interest beyond dice rolling. I can’t stand the “players” against DM attitude that some player’s have. Hey, I'm god right, so don’t fight me and trust me. After all, I’m not doing all this work for nothing. Keeping the tech genie in bottle is often not that much of a problem with my style. Sure you always have the PC that want a Battledress and Plasma cannon, but I can usually get around that one with availability and “your wearing what to town.” They soon learn that all the toys in the world won’t help you if they’re back on the ship.

 

[BigBadRon]

The nearest I've seen to that I think was in CT. Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker both had tables for exchange rates between Imperial Cr and local Cr based on TL and Starport. These showed that backwater worlds with lower tech paid more for goods.
I suppose the reverse would also be true.
It also seems logical to apply the price changes to all items, including ships. If you want to buy a TL10 ship at a TL15 shipyard, then it should be cheaper.
The way to stop players abusing the system would be to impose some sort of difficulty in locating a source of older models.
So if the character is on a TL15 world and wants to buy a TL10 weapon, because it'll be cheaper, make him search for it. And make it a second- or third-hand example when he does find it.
Look at this way, how many brand-new Commodore 64's are still sitting on the shelves of computer shops?

 

[themink]

TNE had a nice conversionfor high-low tech exchange rates.

Currently, everyone should be getting all their ships built at the highest tech level available. It is cheaper and better. Lower tech shipyards just can't compete and should all be out of business.

If you add a "produce lower TL products cheaper" rule as well (even though it is well justified) this is only exasperated(sp).

This strikes me as an unavoidable feature of the TL range in OTU.

 

[Bishop Odo]

The problem with building ships at the highest tech possible is parts and technical knowledge; of course I’m focusing on the TL16 worlds like Vincennes in the Deneb sector, and not TL15 like Glistern. But the cost and savings alone would justify buying a ship at a lesser tech level. So, a TL 14 ship built at TL15 Glistern would be cheaper by 50% and at TL16 Vincennes only an additional 25% of the TL15 price. The price break is only extend to the two level of lower tech, so a TL10 ship built at Glistern would not save you anything more than a TL 12 ship, beyond the original price difference. Referring to TL advances chart, many advances skip or are not really usefully or practical until a few TL have passed.

BigBadRon has a great point about availability, if not cost. I would be very careful about any rule that outdates or increase cost of lower tech items, because some items can never be improved upon, and yet might be a necessity items. A TL10 fusion reactor or weapon may take on the mantel of a quaint novelty or an antique. But, supply and demand should be considered when pricing these items.

I have something else to think about and develop.

 

[lightsenshi]

Originally posted by Bishop Odo:
I would like some feedback on using a rule I found, in a T20 game. In GURPS Far trader there is a rule that states: Items that are produced at Tech levels higher than the item itself are cheaper.

I'll agree with you about player attitude. Some people just can't get it into their heads that it's a game and no one really wins in the end.

Back to your question: The reason the cost goes down has to do with as tech level increases production of anything becomes more efficient. Relative cost may appear to change, but actual cost (time it takes to earn equivalent amount of money) decreases.

 

[Father Fletch]

TNE had a nice conversion for high-low tech exchange rates.

Currently, everyone should be getting all their ships built at the highest tech level available. It is cheaper and better. Lower tech shipyards just can't compete and should all be out of business.

If you add a "produce lower TL products cheaper" rule as well (even though it is well justified) this is only exasperated.

This strikes me as an unavoidable feature of the TL range in OTU.
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I have to disagree with the “Lower tech shipyards just can’t compete and should all be out of business.” statement.
There are lots of reasons for lower tech shipyards to be in business and still doing well.
1. Yes there lots of ships coming out of those yards, but many will likely be larger jobs, (5000 ton super carriers for Tukera, etc) since the overhead on ship construction is probably about the same once you get over about 2000 tons. This means that it is more profitable to build larger ships, cutting the free traders and tramps out of the market for new ships.
2. The local polities will have a vested interest in retaining some control over ship construction for local use. This aids them in both SDB and Customs duties, (buy local and support local) as well as in their contribution to the sub-sector, sector, and domain level navy staffing.
3. By having ships built at the local tech level they are relatively cheaper for local consumers in the long run because the materials needed to support them are available locally. They also are not as dependent on a long logistical tail when it comes to wartime.
4. There is a need, typified by the Subsidized Merchant, (Canonical) for small shipping lines to fill the gaps left by the big boys. This is an Imperially defined need, and supported at the highest level. Since the big, high tech yards are making good money on the big ships (bought by owners with big credit accounts) the small yards, with lower tech, and clients with smaller pocket books are able to stay in business and make a profit working on the smaller ships since that demand is still present.
***These are the kinds that Players Get To Own!***
5. Cannon again: TCS allows only so much money per system to build ships. This can be broken into, for example, 1 50,000-ton ship, 5 1000-ton ships, 50 100-ton ships, or 500 10-ton fighters. Depending on the need present and the amount of cargo going between systems, YMMV-IYTU, most of the 50,000 ton ships are going to be built at the high tech, hi pop industrial worlds with big yards. The rest of the competing yards will be able to pick up the slack and build 50 100-ton ships. While I know this example does break down, it also shows how there are variables already in the system. This is a very rough example of comparative advantage.
6. Since you only need TL 9 to build J1 M1, IIRC, then there are systems that can field a fleet of free traders and do so without outside help, and still be a mercantile force in their local cluster, where the bulk of their trade will be anyway.
7. There are really only a few advantages to high tech ships in Traveller, for the most part. Fusion drives do get smaller, weapons do get more powerful, higher jump numbers become available and armor gets lighter. These are all fields where given an equivalent tonnage and budget, the higher tech ship will win, but these are also fields that mostly concern navies and SD fleets. Merchants can make a profit using J1 M1 ships. Sure only in a cluster or on a main, but it is still a profit.
8. Having all kinds of different ships and ship yards out there makes for a FUN Traveller universe. (This is the most important point IMHO, the rest is just hand waving)
And remember folks, YMMV, especially depending on where you bought yer starship!