Royalty verse nobility

[Blue Ghost]

So, in the noble entry I see Emperor / Empress, archduke, prince etc. listed. But if I understand correctly (and I may not), royalty is apart from nobility, save where archdukes are concerned, because they're essentially imperial level "chamberlains" or candidates of a sort for royalty should something happen to the royal family.

Do I have that right? And if so, does the nobility entry need to be reworked a little?

 

[whulorigan]

So, in the noble entry I see Emperor / Empress, archduke, prince etc. listed. But if I understand correctly (and I may not), royalty is apart from nobility, save where archdukes are concerned, because they're essentially imperial level "chamberlains" or candidates of a sort for royalty should something happen to the royal family.

Do I have that right? And if so, does the nobility entry need to be reworked a little?

The nature of Imperial upper level "nobles" is detailed in the related Noble Title Articles.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Prince
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Archduke

While the titles are based partially on European titles and forms, they also derive in part from Vilani and Sylean norms. The Third Imperium is not Europe, despite the similarities of the Anglic Titles.

The articles above are drawn from the source material listed in the references section at the bottom of the respective article pages, especially T4: Milieu 0 (for the origins & early Imperium), as well as MT:IE and T5 Core / Imperiallines #7 (and CT-Sup 11: Library Data (N-Z), p. 34-37).


What in particular is it that you think needs to be reworked? What would be your suggestions?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I ask because the royal family of any nation is the governing familial pool. The Archduke comes in when one of the monarchs is in capacitated or out of range to govern, and there's no prince of age who can take stewardship of the throne. Ergo you then fall upon the nobility, and specifically the archduke or archduchess because he or she oversee or are the authority underneath the king to whom which all nobles adhere (again, when the monarch is present).

On an administrative level each noble serves the next higher up in the chain, but the royals, although they may have other noble ranks or titles, are not part of the nobility as such when in the royal role. At least that's my understanding, and I'm not sure I have that right. It seems like King / Queen and princes and princesses are not beholden to nobility, but nobility are beholden to the monarch or "royals", save for the archduke.

 

[aramis]

So, in the noble entry I see Emperor / Empress, archduke, prince etc. listed. But if I understand correctly (and I may not), royalty is apart from nobility, save where archdukes are concerned, because they're essentially imperial level "chamberlains" or candidates of a sort for royalty should something happen to the royal family.

Do I have that right? And if so, does the nobility entry need to be reworked a little?

Not really.

Royals are nobles.
Not all nobles are royals.
In several real world systems, knights aren't nobles, but Knights, nobles, and royals are all gentry.

Note also, in the real world systems, Great Barons refers to any noble non-royal above Baron, and Baronage refers to Barons simple and Great Barons. Certain Princes and Archdukes are ALSO great barons. Wales being the most evident. (If, for some crazy reason, Wales were to leave the UK, Charles P.A.G of Windsor would have to decide between Heir of England and Sovereign of Wales... but that's about as likely as a nuclear fuel dump on the moon going critical and blowing the moon out of orbit.)

Real world Archdukes are royalty. Most were hereditary sovereigns of lesser nations.

Grand ___ generally has a meaning of a non-primary heir to a non-heir royal. As in, when the king dies, and your princely parent isn't the inheritor, you cease being a princely royal, and acquire a grand ____ title. Exactly which varies between nations that used them. At least one sovereign duchy (that wasn't an archduchy) was known, and it was a "grand duchy"... Lithuania, Warsawa, and a few other.

Real world Baronets are commoners, not nobles nor gentles, but are entitled to the honorary prefix "Sir".

Real world knights are also not nobles.

There are some real world titles poorly understood; Traveller's use is off from real world in many ways:

• 8 ranks of nobles: Knight, Bannerette, Baron, Viscount, Marquis, Count, Duke, Archduke.
• a clear delineation of working, reward, and honorary titles.
• a lack of immediate relationship of the archdukes to the royals
• Knights and Bannerettes being nobles.
• Archdukes subinfeudating bannerettes

 

[vegas]

Aramis, in your post, you are conflating (or have an over active spellchecker) banneret and baronet.

A banneret is a greater knight the lead his own forces (carried his own banner).

A baronet is a sub-baron, a commoner entitled to "Sir".

Traveller has baronets not bannerets. (Though MTU has both!)

 

[whulorigan]

Well, I ask because the royal family of any nation is the governing familial pool. The Archduke comes in when one of the monarchs is incapacitated or out of range to govern, and there's no prince of age who can take stewardship of the throne. Ergo you then fall upon the nobility, and specifically the archduke or archduchess because he or she oversee or are the authority underneath the king to whom which all nobles adhere (again, when the monarch is present).

In one sense, Imperial Archdukes since the Lentuli Dynasty have served the Imperium when the Emperor is out of range to govern; that is why they were appointed to oversee and "pacify" the territories within their Domains in the Emperor's name. After the 1st Imperial Civil War and the Barracks Emperors, many of those Imperial Archducal titles were allowed to lapse when their holders lines ended, since Emperor's were rightfully fearful of Nobles with too much power and control over large regions. By the time of the 4th Frontier War, the Domains of Deneb, Ilelish, and Sol were all vacant Archducal Sees, and Sylea was held by the Emperor personally. Those Archdukes who remained held primarily ceremonial titles and sometimes acted as "stand-ins" for the Emperor; but their former official governmental positions at the Domain-level had been largely bypassed and eliminated in the Imperial governmental structure. Strephon began to change that in the late 1000's.

In the Imperium, if the Emperor were incapacitated and there was no immediately available or eligible Prince, most likely the Imperial Moot would step in to take appropriate action and/or appoint an appropriate Imperial Regent.

On an administrative level each noble serves the next higher up in the chain, but the royals, although they may have other noble ranks or titles, are not part of the nobility as such when in the royal role. At least that's my understanding, and I'm not sure I have that right. It seems like King / Queen and princes and princesses are not beholden to nobility, but nobility are beholden to the monarch or "royals", save for the archduke.

Note also that in the European systems of nobility, Archdukes and Grand Dukes are normally only found within nobility systems headed by an Emperor. Those headed by a King or Queen generally have Duke (or lower) as the highest rank. Archdukes can in some cases be sovereign in their own right, and in some cases Archduke or Grand Duke is the title of an Emperor's heir, such as in the Habsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire. When the Habsburgs controlled the Holy Roman Empire, the heir-apparent to the Imperial title was generally bestowed the title "King of the Romans" after election by the Prince-Electors, but prior to his ascension to the throne upon his predecessors death and subsequent coronation by the Pope.

In many ways, the system of the Third Imperium bears many similarities to the Nobility system of 16th-18th Century France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nobility

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the French system seems to turn things on it head. Suddenly a prince is below a count and duke, and they have that crazy "dauphine" or "dolfang" rank, which I don't understand. I also seem to recall that France had at least one impoverished king who rode to his castle and council on a hay wagon pulled by a old horse. I've often wondered how that happened.

I guess in the end I just really have a hard time wrapping my head around nobility and royalty. I understand the basic English system, which seems to mirror a lot of Europe, but then the middle east, India, Japan and even the south pacific all have their variations on a theme.

I guess my understanding is that whoever the archduke was, he was a key advisor to the sovereign, and stepped in when the sovereign was away or unavailable, and as such he could be made sovereign in the event of a familial catastrophe. But apparently that's not the case.

I guess I don't recall Strepheron having any children other than one daughter, and I'm curious if they're still around in T4 or T5, and what their status is in T5.

 

[aramis]

I guess my understanding is that whoever the archduke was, he was a key advisor to the sovereign, and stepped in when the sovereign was away or unavailable, and as such he could be made sovereign in the event of a familial catastrophe. But apparently that's not the case.

That's never been how it worked.

Historical Archdukes are hereditary sovereigns, or subject only to Emperors (not kings), and not of the Imperial lineage. Such as the Archduke assassinated in the triggering of WW I.

I guess I don't recall Strepheron having any children other than one daughter, and I'm curious if they're still around in T4 or T5, and what their status is in T5.

Strephon didn't, until Avery. He did make Lucan and Varian, his nephews, princes... Spares to Iolanthe... and that turned out to be a bad choice.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This resource seems to disagree;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke

I'll have to track down a book on the subject. There was a really good website out of either Washington or London by a duke who had a lot of information on the subject. If I track it down I'll post a link.

 

[whulorigan]

Well, the French system seems to turn things on it head. Suddenly a prince is below a count and duke, and they have that crazy "dauphine" or "dolfang" rank, which I don't understand . . .

One thing that often leads to confusion is that there is a significant difference between a Sovereign Prince, vs. a Prince of the Blood. Most Americans think of a Prince of the Blood when they hear the term Prince, which is an unfortunate consequence of the fact that the English language uses the same term for two different concepts (which isn't necessarily true in other languages such as German).

A Prince of the Blood (German "Prinz" - from Latin "Princeps" or "First Citizen") is a Royal Heir and/or member of a Royal Family.

A Sovereign Prince (German "Fürst" - from Germanic root meaning "First") is a proper title of Sovereign Nobility in its own right that has nothing to do with relationship to another sovereign. It typically ranks just above Marquis and just below Duke in the European systems of precedence (e.g. - The Prince of Monaco), and rules over a sovereign territory known as a Principality. So the heir of a Sovereign Prince (i.e. Fürst) could in fact be a Prince of the Blood (i.e. Prinz). See Fürst: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fürst

"Dauphin" is the proper title bestowed upon the heir-apparent to the King of France, just as Prince of Wales is typically conferred upon the heir to the British Throne when he comes of age.

. . . I understand the basic English system, which seems to mirror a lot of Europe. . . .

Actually the English system has some significant differences as compared to the rest of European nobility, particularly concerning who is considered "noble" and/or inherits a title, and who does not. European systems have many more nobles per capita because in general they consider all children of a noble to be noble (either with or without an inherited title - cf France vs Italy or Germany)^* , whereas in Britain, only the title-holder is noble, and also the heir to the title only when he inherits. The "titles" of the heir and/or junior family members of a British noble are mere "courtesy titles" for commoners directly related to a Noble. British Marquesses and Dukes are of sufficient prestige that their younger sons (though still considered commoners) are permitted to use the generic title "Lord" before their names (but not their descendants).

^* Note that in this sense nobility in the Third Imperium is more like some Continental European systems than the British system and that this is also great CharGen background material for Traveller characters with high Soc: The younger children of Nobles who have both title and connections, but no real power and no real chance to inherit (i.e.Honor/Legacy/Local Nobility). Great reasons to become a Traveller. ​

Also, in England all Nobles (i.e. "Peers" - Baron or higher) hold their titles directly from the sovereign, whereas in continental systems some noble titles are held thru an intermediary noble.

Every European country/region has its own noble traditions which vary from one system to another; it is not simply a single nobility system with titles translated from one language to another.

France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nobility

Germany:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nobility

Italy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility_of_Italy
http://www.regalis.com/nobletitles.htm

Russia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_nobility

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Royalty verse nobility: Do I have that right? And if so, does the nobility entry need to be reworked a little?

Imperial Lines Magazine issue #7 helped to clarify things. It's worth purchasing. If I recall correctly, Jim Kundert was a big part of that.

The associated wiki articles have been updated recently. I don't think that they are 100% in compliant with #7 yet.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Eh, I think it's actually one of those YTU things, and YMMV. That is after perusing the thread it strikes me as a "flavor to taste" thing. To me it's a universe detail I was curious about, but in terms of adventuring … unless you're a big super-serious space opera type whose PCs and NPCs hob nob with the ultra rich, powerful and famous … it really doesn't have w whole lot of bearing on any adventure.

I doubt the monarch or archduke is going to be interested in the arrest of any one pirate clan or cartel, or any interstellar level crime unless a loved one is involved.

John Mason, IISS pilot and team leader revisits the pyramids in shadows, he and his team find nothing, and so he transmits his findings directly to the archduke. The Archduke's chamberlain knows about a plot, screens it, and then pushes the info towards the Archduke and his staff.

but now I'm just rambling. I guess unless there's some real serious plot for the players to unthread and uncover, I guess it doesn't matter much.

But thanks for the replies. Especially since Strepheron never had any children.

 

[whartung]

I doubt the monarch or archduke is going to be interested in the arrest of any one pirate clan or cartel, or any interstellar level crime unless a loved one is involved.

It depends.

Even though Leadership is, perhaps, not directly involved with a manhunt, doesn't mean they're disinterested. Playing up the capture for political points alone is worthwhile. "See, Citizens, the Administration is Working(tm)."

Consider the movie "Clear and Present Danger" where the President authorizes national resources to, essentially, avenge the murder of a friend under the color of the "War on Drugs".

There have been many examples of recent history where leadership has leveraged small time affairs for national purposes.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I suppose.

I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved. Because of his presumed experience he holds rank above the sons and daughters of the monarchs, but apparently that's not the case with the 3I Imperial (royal) family, and supposedly never has been.

And I guess to me that's a quirk of Strepheron's Imperium, and it would seem to make things more complex than they need to be, because that means if anything happens to Strepheron, and it did, things get complicated. And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.

In retrospect, that was the whole premise behind Mega-Traveller which I didn't get until just now, in spite of reading all the source books.

Interesting.

It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.

 

[aramis]

Well, I suppose.

I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved. Because of his presumed experience he holds rank above the sons and daughters of the monarchs, but apparently that's not the case with the 3I Imperial (royal) family, and supposedly never has been.

And I guess to me that's a quirk of Strepheron's Imperium, and it would seem to make things more complex than they need to be, because that means if anything happens to Strepheron, and it did, things get complicated. And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.

In retrospect, that was the whole premise behind Mega-Traveller which I didn't get until just now, in spite of reading all the source books.

Interesting.

It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.

6 Archdukes are mentioned by name in MT sources that I recall

1. Norris - self promoted, but the promotion letter really was in the mail
2. Brzk - a Vargr, and an Archduke - Archduke of Antares
3. Dulinor of Illelish,
4. Tranian, Archduke of Gateway
5. Adair, Archduke of Sol
6. Ishuggi, Archduke of Vland

It's mentioned that there is no Archduke for Sylea - Strephon himself held Sylea's archduchy personally - but other Emperors might not have.
Norris is the first Deneb Archduke in some time.

Duke Craig of Diabei is the senior duke of the sector, and leads the sector into rebellion, along with part of Reaver's Deep.

Duchess Margaret is the great-granddaughter of Emperor Gavin. There are some references in other materials as Grand Duchess - which is an implication that she's a royal - but in the MT GDW materials, she's just listed as Duchess, with notation that she's a potential heir. (but not until Lucan is dead.)

The Archdukes are not part of the royal family, save Strephon.

All the above is found in Rebellion Sourcebook or Imperial Encyclopedia.

 

[Hyphen]

But thanks for the replies. Especially since Strepheron never had any children.

Strephon and Iolanthe had Ciencia Iphegenia Alkhalikoi (Grand Princess of the Imperium). in this title, "Grand" is the Imperial titular designation of the heir to the Iridium Throne.

After they both were assassinated, the TNE timeline tells us he had Avery via fertilisation of stored eggs from Iolanthe.

I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved.

Royalty means "in the line of succession" which is limited to the Imperial Family.

My understanding of Archdukes in Traveller is that they are not. Nor are any other nobility.

Historically, if a royal family is wiped out, the search begins for an obscure heir. If none is found, the senior nobles - dukes, usually - begin squabbling over the kingdom. Eventually one is chosen or more likely defeats all the others, and is declared (or declares themselves) to be king.

And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.

Hence the squabbling.

It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.

There was an Archduke for each of the seven Domains.

EDIT: Heh. Wil beat me to it by about 12 minutes. ;-)

 

[aramis]

There was an Archduke for each of the seven Domains.

EDIT: Heh. Wil beat me to it by about 12 minutes. ;-)

Only if you count Strephon.

And, in M1100, Deneb is vacant.

 

[whulorigan]

. . .
Norris is the first Deneb Archduke in some time.. . .

Unless there has been a retcon (or details in the intervening period of 650-1100 Imperial that have not been revealed previously), Norris is the first Archduke of Deneb ever. The Domain of Deneb was established by Empress Jacqueline in 589, the same year as the outbreak of the 1st Frontier War, which concluded with the assassination of Jacqueline by a Grand Admiral of Baronial rank from the Domain of Deneb (leading to the 1st Civil War & Barracks Emperors). After the 1st & 2nd Frontier Wars, and the Civil War were concluded, Emperors were reluctant to appoint new Archdukes with broad powers who might threaten the Imperial Throne, and existing Archducal lines were allowed to go vacant when their title-holders failed to produce an heir (or were otherwise removed from office).

. . .Duchess Margaret is the great-granddaughter of Emperor Gavin. There are some references in other materials as Grand Duchess - which is an implication that she's a royal - but in the MT GDW materials, she's just listed as Duchess, with notation that she's a potential heir. (but not until Lucan is dead.) . . .

I don't recall the term Grand Duchess having been mentioned in relation to her anywhere (if you have a reference, I would be interested in seeing it). However, I do recall that:

1. She was apparently the Sector Duchess
2. In TNE:1248 background material, she was referred to as an Archduchess (post-1130 Imperial) for the first time ever that I recall. Since Delphi is a part of the Domain of Sylea, it raises the question as to how she came by the title (other than by self-appointment, or as a part of her claim to the Imperial Title and associated archducal dignities).

 

[mike wightman]

Unless MWM has a retcon I am unaware of Norris was the first ever archduke of Deneb. When Arrival Vengeance made it to the real Strephon he found it amusing that Norris had promoted himself and then ratified it... oops, just read whulorigan's post, and he makes the same point

The chief difference between classical royalty and Imperial nobility is that royalty relied on divine authority whereas Imperial nobility is purely temporal. The Imperial Emperor doesn't seek divine recognition of his/her status, and the various nobles entitled by the Emperor similarly rely on Imperial authority rather than divine blessing.

Referring to the Imperial family as royalty isn't strictly speaking correct, but it certainly fits since they are the highest ranking noble family.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

6 Archdukes are mentioned by name in MT sources that I recall

1. Norris - self promoted, but the promotion letter really was in the mail
2. Brzk - a Vargr, and an Archduke - Archduke of Antares
3. Dulinor of Illelish,
4. Tranian, Archduke of Gateway
5. Adair, Archduke of Sol
6. Ishuggi, Archduke of Vland

There is a whole bushel load of other archdukes mentioned throughout literature of various canonicity. Including some archduke named Hostman.

It's all here:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Archduke

If you asked me how much of it was the alternate storyline "Imperium Eternal", from canon publications, from fanzines, and whatnot...

...I could not tell you.

I have been compiling these things so that we eventually could make something from it. Or that it would empower Marc to do with it what he would. Some of it was from the research that Hans did. RIP.

Each domain page has an archduke listing as well. The pacification campaigns aren't even close to being well documented.

And if Jim is reading this, we want the next nobility article in the future Imperial Lines #8 when you are ready to share it.

Hope that helps.

Shalom,
M.