Royalty verse nobility

[Blue Ghost]

Unless MWM has a retcon I am unaware of Norris was the first ever archduke of Deneb. When Arrival Vengeance made it to the real Strephon he found it amusing that Norris had promoted himself and then ratified it... oops, just read whulorigan's post, and he makes the same point

The chief difference between classical royalty and Imperial nobility is that royalty relied on divine authority whereas Imperial nobility is purely temporal. The Imperial Emperor doesn't seek divine recognition of his/her status, and the various nobles entitled by the Emperor similarly rely on Imperial authority rather than divine blessing.

Referring to the Imperial family as royalty isn't strictly speaking correct, but it certainly fits since they are the highest ranking noble family.

ISTR that he was the defacto "archduke" due to the fact that the Marches, in spite of being sandwiched between the Zhos, Vargr space and Swordys, was in essence one of the most stable regions of space during the rebellion. But no, I don't recall an official declaration of his ascension to being an archduke, he was just the one guy the Marches (and the larger Deneb area) could recognize. The Marches could rally about him, but the larger domain probably just nodded toward him because he had hard "rubber hits the road" military and administrative experience.

As for Margaret, to me she kind of came out of left field, and I never really understood the writeup for her history. When MT was published I was deep in finishing off my degree and going full boar in a career, so even though I was buying and perusing Traveller, a lot of what I read kind of got lost in my wet-ware's file system. Ergo when I read the Rebellion sourcebook … in spite of the setting established by all of the books, I just wasn't able to wrap my head around where she came from in a larger sense.

The Rebellion sourcebook felt like a post doctorate analysis for a game aimed at pre-teens and post college grads. Even though it was easy to read, I didn't get how the rebellion really stirred, and why if there were nobles, there wasn't more order. Hence the reason I was curious about archdukes (official or self declared) were slugging it out. But I guess it falls back on Lucan or Dulinor as the two usual suspects.

 

[whulorigan]

ISTR that [Norris] was the defacto "archduke" due to the fact that the Marches, in spite of being sandwiched between the Zhos, Vargr space and Swordys, was in essence one of the most stable regions of space during the rebellion. But no, I don't recall an official declaration of his ascension to being an archduke, he was just the one guy the Marches (and the larger Deneb area) could recognize. The Marches could rally about him, but the larger domain probably just nodded toward him because he had hard "rubber hits the road" military and administrative experience.

Basically, the back-story is that there had been long standing rivalry between Duchess Delphine of Mora and Duke Norris of Regina over the position of defacto Sector Duke of the Spinward Marches, which culminated during the 5th Frontier War in Norris's relief-from-command (via possession of an Imperial Warrant) for incompetence of Sector Admiral Santanocheev, one of Delphine's relatives.

When the assassination of Strephon occurred in 1116, Norris had received advanced notice of the event through the J-6 diplomatic courier network, and acting quickly, he forged an elevation to Archducal status for himself on some "blank" Imperial stationery, backdated to 1114 to account for bureaucracy and communication time-lag, and took control of the Marches as the new "Archduke" of the entire Domain of Deneb.

Later, when the Arrival Vengeance mission from Norris arrived in "Strephon's Imperium" at Usdikki in Gushemege, a somewhat bemused Strephon responded to "Archduke" Norris's embassy by commending him for his actions in securing the Domain of Deneb Sectors during the Rebellion crisis and giving a private gift to be taken back to Norris, which included an official patent as Archduke of Deneb.

As for Margaret, to me she kind of came out of left field, and I never really understood the writeup for her history. When MT was published I was deep in finishing off my degree and going full boar in a career, so even though I was buying and perusing Traveller, a lot of what I read kind of got lost in my wet-ware's file system. Ergo when I read the Rebellion sourcebook … in spite of the setting established by all of the books, I just wasn't able to wrap my head around where she came from in a larger sense.

Duchess Margaret was the "1st cousin-once-removed" of Strephon (they shared Emperor Gavin from the time of the Solomani Rim War as an ancestor), and her family was thus an extended branch (a "cadet line") of the Imperial Family. Her branch of the family had been elevated to the Dukedom of Anaxias in Delphi Sector, and she was also at the time of the Rebellion the Sector Duchess for Delphi. She was married to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera, of the Tukera family of Tukera Lines. After Lucan, she was the next closest surviving heir to the Imperial Throne, and considered to be the preferable choice to lead the Imperium over Lucan by many of the more moderate members of the Imperial Moot.

See: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Emperors_of_the_Third_Imperium#Alkhalikoi_Dynasty_Family_Tree

The Rebellion sourcebook felt like a post doctorate analysis for a game aimed at pre-teens and post college grads. Even though it was easy to read, I didn't get how the rebellion really stirred, and why if there were nobles, there wasn't more order. Hence the reason I was curious about archdukes (official or self declared) were slugging it out. But I guess it falls back on Lucan or Dulinor as the two usual suspects.

That's because the people at DGP who created the campaign background pretty much created it out of whole cloth toward the end of the Classic Traveller run as the backdrop for MegaTraveller. With the exception of one or two of the final CT-era Traveller Digest publications, there was no hint of the events that would become the Rebellion prior to their involvement in creating a setting with a number of factions explicitly set up to have no easy resolution - every side had its hang-ups and problems deliberately "baked-in" from the beginning, so that there was no easy resolution.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Basically, the back-story is that there had been long standing rivalry between Duchess Delphine of Mora and Duke Norris of Regina over the position of defacto Sector Duke of the Spinward Marches, which culminated during the 5th Frontier War in Norris's relief-from-command (via possession of an Imperial Warrant) for incompetence of Sector Admiral Santanocheev, one of Delphine's relatives.

When the assassination of Strephon occurred in 1116, Norris had received advanced notice of the event through the J-6 diplomatic courier network, and acting quickly, he forged an elevation to Archducal status for himself on some "blank" Imperial stationery, backdated to 1114 to account for bureaucracy and communication time-lag, and took control of the Marches as the new "Archduke" of the entire Domain of Deneb.

Later, when the Arrival Vengeance mission from Norris arrived in "Strephon's Imperium" at Usdikki in Gushemege, a somewhat bemused Strephon responded to "Archduke" Norris's embassy by commending him for his actions in securing the Domain of Deneb Sectors during the Rebellion crisis and giving a private gift to be taken back to Norris, which included an official patent as Archduke of Deneb.



Duchess Margaret was the "1st cousin-once-removed" of Strephon (they shared Emperor Gavin from the time of the Solomani Rim War as an ancestor), and her family was thus an extended branch of the Imperial Family. Her branch of the family had been elevated to the Dukedom of Anaxias in Delphi Sector, and she was also at the time of the Rebellion the Sector Duchess for Delphi. She was married to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera, of the Tukera family of Tukera Lines. After Lucan, she was the next closest surviving heir to the Imperial Throne, and considered to be the preferable choice to lead the Imperium over Lucan by many of the more moderate members of the Imperial Moot.



That's because the people at DGP who created the campaign background pretty much created it out of whole cloth toward the end of the Classic Traveller run as the backdrop for MegaTraveller. With the exception of one or two of the final CT-era Traveller Digest publications, there was no hint of the events that would become the Rebellion prior to their involvement in creating a setting with a number of factions set up to have no easy resolution - every side had its hang-ups and problems deliberately "baked-in" from the beginning, so that there was no easy resolution.

I have the campaign book for Norris, Santanochev and the frontier war (name escape me...Spinward Marches Campaign?), and I've read it cover to cover, but I don't recall Norris ever self-proclaiming himself to be the archduke. Was that written up in a T4 sourcebook or something? I mean, it's been over 20 years since I read the thing, so forgive my memory here.

I recall Margaret having some familial roots, but unlike Norris she never really made a move to consolidate her forces or mobilize her fleets much--or that I recall. So, again, she seemed like this background character that got notoriety like the rest of the archdukes on Aramis's list, and done so for the sake of forwarding the Rebellion plot.

And I guess that's kind of how I see nobility and the MT era; a formulated hodgepodge for the sake of creating a more dynamic Imperium. But to me, and for my group, I simply ran CT like adventures with little or some MT fuzz. I never really got a sense that political and military chaos was taking over, because you never got any real kind of TNA or TAS updates on what uprisings were happening where, why, who was involved, and the scale of the battles on land, sea, air, or space.

But, again, I guess the whole theory is that no one could step forward, ergo an implied rebellion, but it's like whether I was working a lot and didn't have time for MT, from what I recall, there seemed little evidence of an Empire in upheaval other than the sourcebook said it was happening.

But now I'm rambling on my soap box. Food and sleep are needed.

 

[whulorigan]

I have the campaign book for Norris, Santanochev and the frontier war (name escape me...Spinward Marches Campaign?), and I've read it cover to cover, but I don't recall Norris ever self-proclaiming himself to be the archduke. Was that written up in a T4 sourcebook or something? I mean, it's been over 20 years since I read the thing, so forgive my memory here.

• Spinward Marches Campaign was about the 5th Frontier War (1107-1110) and published during the Classic Traveller era.
• Norris making himself Archduke was in the MegaTraveller material, which initially covered the period 1116-1120.

. . . And I guess that's kind of how I see nobility and the MT era; a formulated hodgepodge for the sake of creating a more dynamic Imperium. But to me, and for my group, I simply ran CT like adventures with little or some MT fuzz. I never really got a sense that political and military chaos was taking over, because you never got any real kind of [TNS] or TAS updates on what uprisings were happening where, why, who was involved, and the scale of the battles on land, sea, air, or space.

But, again, I guess the whole theory is that no one could step forward, ergo an implied rebellion, but it's like whether I was working a lot and didn't have time for MT, from what I recall, there seemed little evidence of an Empire in upheaval other than the sourcebook said it was happening.

Your observation is valid. In fact, it is one of the reasons why GURPS Traveller set their Campaign Setting in an alternate timeline where the Rebellion never happened - because many people felt the same way - they liked the reasonably stable Imperium that they had grown up with (which had no hint of an impending unresolvable political situation) as a background or sandbox setting for their own campaigns.

(Side Note: In GURPS Traveller, Norris is legitimately promoted to Archduke of Deneb in 1116 by Emperor Strephon, the news reaching the Spinward Marches by 1117).

 

[mike wightman]

I think the seeds of the rebellion were there from the very first mention of the Imperium no longer having the strength it once had and the very dubious nature of politics and the nobility within the Spinward Marches as detailed in Kinunir...

 

[Blue Ghost]

• Spinward Marches Campaign was about the 5th Frontier War (1107-1110) and published during the Classic Traveller era.
• Norris making himself Archduke was in the MegaTraveller material, which initially covered the period 1116-1120.

Your observation is valid. In fact, it is one of the reasons why GURPS Traveller set their Campaign Setting in an alternate timeline where the Rebellion never happened - because many people felt the same way - they liked the reasonably stable Imperium that they had grown up with (which had no hint of an impending unresolvable political situation) as a background or sandbox setting for their own campaigns.

(Side Note: In GURPS Traveller, Norris is legitimately promoted to Archduke of Deneb in 1116 by Emperor Strephon, the news reaching the Spinward Marches by 1117).

Well, I think in spite of the quality of the DGP material, ultimately a lack of development of the Rebellion is what did in MT--at least in hindsight.

I don't want to get too off topic, but with a combination of school and career I dropped Traveller for a long time. I understood there was supposed to be massive political upheavals, but it's like "who's invading who?" time, and apparently no one was. The setup for the background sounded intriguing, and despite the Rebellion sourcebook cover art, most of what was inside was backstory and posturing by high ranking NPCs.

Timerover's observation on another thread (or perhaps my blog, I can't recall just now) is that scifi RPGs are about solving problems, where fantasy RPGs are about fantasy gratification. It almost strikes me that Traveller was taking a new avenue at the time, and there was a desire to inject excitement and perhaps a kind of fantasy gratification psychology with the new toys (vehicle guide as an example) and streamlined art.

But with all that, to me, the nobility thing was a layer of NPC detail that flew over my head because I didn't understand nobility all that well (we had nobles in our games, but they didn't carry much clout), and the detailing of fleet movements and tensions wasn't explored beyond Rebellion--or so I recall. So, noble ranks, in retrospect, I think could have been better spelled out as a kind of playguide for players.

Thanks for the replies. I guess in the end it never seemed like nobility had much to do with players unless your rolled one up, and even then the political weight they were supposed to carry in the game was never really made clear. If you rolled up a marquis or duke did people recognize that PC? How many shades away were they from local nobility and royals? Whatever. I got a better handle on ranks now as they pertain to Traveller.

I'll have to have a look at my T5 CD and see what it says.

 

[whulorigan]

Well, I think in spite of the quality of the DGP material, ultimately a lack of development of the Rebellion is what did in MT--at least in hindsight.

My personal opinion is that one of the primary problems was making the Rebellion the basis for MegaTraveller, instead of simply making MT an updated Traveller ruleset and running the "Rebellion" in TNS news articles in JTAS/Challenge (with a few supplementary sourcebooks) like they did for Classic Traveller and the 5th Frontier War. By tying the Rebellion to the ruleset itself, they forced themselves into a corner in which they had to continue publishing material for an ever-ongoing Rebellion without the possibility of a resolution, rather than allowing the Rebellion to run its course and move on to a new status quo.

Classic Traveller was just a ruleset; it was never billed as Traveller: The Fifth Frontier War. If it had been, it might have had similar problems as a war that never ends.

I'll have to have a look at my T5 CD and see what it says.

Be advised that T5 is mostly rule mechanics, and what it does say about Nobles (along with Imperiallines #7) is slightly different than the way in which certain specifics about Nobles were detailed in previous editions. Marc has a slightly different "take" on them as compared to their portrayal as published by the combined GDW staff back in the day.

 

[Condottiere]

It's probably a mistake to too closely tie the hierarchy of a fictional Imperium to that of the rather old European one, especially since in Traveller it's adjusted to suit the plot as it develops.

The Royal Family, or in this case, the Imperial Family, would be the descendants of a ruling Emperor or Empress to usually a specific generation, and children not in the direct line of succession, would be regarded as diplomatic pawns to be sold off in marriage to strengthen or create alliances between powerful Noble Houses within the Imperium, or client kingdoms; in theory, that could have included the Zhodani Consulate and Solomani Confederation, but neither would have by their nature a ruling house, or be persuaded to amend their policies reagrding the Imperium.

Again, in the English model, non successor sons are created Dukes to establish them as cadet houses, since Dukes outrank mere Princes, with the exception of that of Wales, who actually is the titular head of an actual principality; something similar to the Continental model. It's a question of precedence.

For the Imperium, assuming an Archduke is actually meant to at least govern his domain, it may be more of a super satrapy, considering the fact that a subsector Duke probably has more influence in actually running his territory, and a sector Duke is supposedly first amongst equals.

I don't know how the Imperium deals with a Regency, where either the Crown successor, a Shogun, or just a board of supervisors run the state until the Crown successor comes of majority, or a handicapped Emperor kicks the bucket.

A mentally competent Emperor who's off to the frontier to temporarily supervise operations only needs to leave behind a competent and trusted Chancellor, or let his heir experience the reins of power.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I never bought the supplement covering nobles, so from an LBB or BBB standpoint, nobles, for the basic game, have never been well defined. I always understood them to be flavor for the game; i.e. since "Princess Leia was in Star Wars", then maybe Traveller should have some royal / noble people. Something short of marketing, but not much beyond.

One of our players generated a Duke who was also a Brigadier General. I mean, what do you do with that? Does he have an armed escort and deep pockets with lots of connections? If so, then where's the challenge in any of the adventures?

 

[mike wightman]

LBB 1-3 were written before the folks at GDW had seen Star Wars, so Soc as a characteristic and noble titles for high Soc were part of the rules as written because those tropes exist in golden age sci fi.

If you are not playing some sort of active duty campaign then the default is that a Traveller character has left his/her prior career and is now an adventure seeker - a Traveller.


So an ex-brigadier general duke just means you have an interesting back story to work out for the character, the potential for lots of friends and enemies, and since the game defaults to a frontier region "Your rank and noble title may be a big deal in the core sectors, but out here you shovel shit like the rest of us... now get shovelling."

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess. He occasionally made a big deal out of it, and in hindsight didn't seem to really want to play.

Nobles just didn't seem to be laid out in the early days, much less royalty (imperial family stuff). I guess it's better laid out now, but still seems nebulous at points. Do you have a personal guard? Is there a "noble" version of TAS? What kind of etiquette should you expect on what kind of worlds? I mean I'm not much into it anymore, but it seemed like it wasn't addressed, and I'm still kind of clueless on it. I mean, if you're a Duke, then who's minding the store while your gallivanting out here in the Marches? That stuff. Like you say, it's just back story, so both player and Ref have to make it up I guess.

 

[whulorigan]

I never bought the supplement covering nobles, so from an LBB or BBB standpoint, nobles, for the basic game, have never been well defined. I always understood them to be flavor for the game . . .
.
.
.
One of our players generated a Duke who was also a Brigadier General. I mean, what do you do with that? Does he have an armed escort and deep pockets with lots of connections? If so, then where's the challenge in any of the adventures?

I guess. He occasionally made a big deal out of it, and in hindsight didn't seem to really want to play.

Nobles just didn't seem to be laid out in the early days, much less royalty (imperial family stuff). I guess it's better laid out now, but still seems nebulous at points. Do you have a personal guard? Is there a "noble" version of TAS? What kind of etiquette should you expect on what kind of worlds? I mean I'm not much into it anymore, but it seemed like it wasn't addressed, and I'm still kind of clueless on it. I mean, if you're a Duke, then who's minding the store while your gallivanting out here in the Marches? That stuff. Like you say, it's just back story, so both player and Ref have to make it up I guess.

Examples:

1. You have been relieved of your governmental responsibilities as Duke, willingly or otherwise (i.e. you no longer have a "See" such as Imperial Regional Governor or Finance Minister), and now only have your Social Position and a legacy, and a lot of free time on your hands. Presumably you have an estate somewhere with a trustworthy staff who mind the day-to-day running of the household, largely independent of your direct oversight. You have decided to "see the galaxy", or otherwise pursue your own goals with the free time and reputation that you have at your disposal.
2. Rivals have ousted you from power in the Moot or Senate or at Court (or other body of Nobility) and you are in disgrace, falsely accused, or otherwise in a situation where it is best that you be "elsewhere". You have fled to the frontier to escape your enemies and are "on your own", perhaps keeping a low profile, perhaps not, depending on the nature of your disfavor back at court.
3. Your nobility is merely an honor-title either for notable service, or (more likely at the ducal level), as a result of a familial relation to a serving High Noble (remember that Traveller LBBs imply that noble titles are used by all members of the family, similar to European Continental nobility, and unlike the British Peerage). Your "social-promotions" during character generation may be partly associated with your noble relative being elevated in his career, and you benefiting by the relationship. You do not hold a ducal See or otherwise command ducal-level responsibilities yourself. It is possible that you yourself are personally knighted and even might hold a Baronial honor-title in your own right, but that your high Soc derives primarily from your close relative. As a result (as a "cadet" member of a noble family) you have much free time just like any other Traveller who has just gone thru a "significant career change", and have a social-title and some family connections to call upon in Soc-based interpersonal tasks with NPCs, but otherwise must make your own way.
4. Similar to above, but you are a "remittance man" - someone who belongs to a Noble family but is being paid to stay away from home for some reason (embarrassing incident caused by either the character or the parent/sibling, safety of the character from political or other machinations, etc.) and is on his own and far away from home.
5. As a Duke and Brigadier General - Perhaps you have formed a well-known elite Mercenary Unit with your title and background after your mustering out from the Imperial Forces, or perhaps you are on retainer by the government to do special operations for them at need with such a unit.

Also, something to keep in mind: in LBB'77 Traveller, Noble titles were all Local Planetary Nobility, NOT Imperial/Interstellar Nobility, even up to Soc=15. So the High Soc in CharGen issue was less of a problem for explaining things at the Traveller/Interstellar level - you just weren't that significant on that scale.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Good back stories. Nice.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I get the nobility setup now more. Thanks for all the replies. And reflecting on my John Carter of Mars era, I get Traveller more now than ever. It only took me thirty years. Oh well.

Thanks for letting me post.

 

[Blue Ghost]

whulorigan; just a quick note here, I apologize for sounding dismissive to you and others. Your post really helped clear things up for me. I understand the game's intent a whole lot better, as well as some other issues outside the game.

As usual, you and the rest of the COTI crew were and are as always highly informative.

Thanks again.

 

[whulorigan]

whulorigan; just a quick note here, I apologize for sounding dismissive to you and others. Your post really helped clear things up for me. I understand the game's intent a whole lot better, as well as some other issues outside the game.

As usual, you and the rest of the COTI crew were and are as always highly informative.

Thanks again.

No need to apologize. I was not offended in any way.

 

[Condottiere]

Nobility gets mentioned in Space Viking, Mote In God's Eye and Dune, and the characters have actual functions and responsibilities, including secession, whereas Leia is the damsel in distress whose plight is elevated by having a title.