Really????

[pennshome723]

Hans,

I yield to your point. I guess I am a bad person to argue this case, because I have my own house rules that I have put together over the past 25 years of my 37 years of playing the game. I buy all products and take from them what I like and want to wrap into my own in-house system. So for me all versions of the game are nothing more than just a Tool-Box to enhance my own system.

 

[lspitz]

Everybody houserules RPG games. That's just a given. The real question is, when you look at a new gaming system (or a new edition of an old one), at what point do you shake your head and say "Hmmm, I'd have to houserule so much of this material to match my playing style/meet my standards that it's not worth buying"?

And the point at which you say this will probably be different than the point at which I would.

The smartest thing that any of us can do is to pick the version of the game that comes closest to our personal ideal of how the game should work, and then adjust whatever rules don't suit us in order to meet that ideal.

T5 is not the version for me.

 

[pennshome723]

With Traveller I have always just bought it all regardless and placed it on my shelves regardless what!

 

[lspitz]

With Traveller I have always just bought it all regardless and placed it on my shelves regardless what!

I stopped doing that when I reached TNE, and I only own the core rulebook from T4.

 

[pennshome723]

I stopped doing that when I reached TNE, and I only own the core rulebook from T4.

My one regret is I did not buy Gurps Traveller at all, but I have everything else!

 

[lspitz]

My one regret is I did not buy Gurps Traveller at all, but I have everything else!

You missed out. GURPS Traveller was decent. Good writing, high production values. I have a nearly complete set.

 

[pennshome723]

Years ago I lived in Philadelphia, PA and I use to go down town to Chestnut street and go to the Complete Strategist RPG store and then to Fat Jacks Comic Store on Sampson Street to buy all my gaming stuff for years. Years latter after Complete Strategist store closed, I use to go to a hobby store on South Street also in Philadelphia, PA and buy from there.

Now somewhere in that time frame I was buying so much gaming stuff and comics that I decided to draw a line. Also I think Mega Traveller was out at that time at the same time Gurps Traveller was being published. I did not like Gurps anything, so I never bothered to look at it until years later when it was no longer out there. Actually it came out durring the Rebellion/Hard Times era of Traveller and I should of bought it for references like the loads of other stuff I also own.

 

[thalassogen]

My one regret is I did not buy Gurps Traveller at all, but I have everything else!

If you don't mind PDF, try this: http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-6600
(Link is to the main GURPS Traveller SETTING book, from there you may click along.)

 

[cuTTer]

Also I think Mega Traveller was out at that time at the same time Gurps Traveller was being published.

I'll have a pint of whatever you're on Penny.

MegaTraveller, The New Era and T4 were all dead and buried by the time GURPS Traveller hit the shelves in 1998.

T4 may still have been warm, but dead.

 

[lspitz]

Yeah, GURPS Traveller postdates T4. When it came out, though, there was still a fair amount of earlier Traveller products floating around. I remember seeing lots of TNE sourcebooks in the used games bin around that time. Now I rarely see any old Traveller stuff for sale.

I did find a delightful exception about a year ago- a tiny, hole-in-the-wall gaming store that had a collection of JTAS issues, CT adventures and CT supplements- all of them in mint condition at insanely low prices. Needless to say, I snapped up anything that I didn't already have in my collection.

I'll readily admit that I've never played GURPS Traveller, per se. But there's lots of interesting stuff in there that can be worked into a campaign using the rules set of your choice.

So, does anybody out there have any plans to run a more or less by-the-book T5 campaign? There's lots of talk about pulling out the interesting bits for use with other rules sets, but I'm not hearing a lot of love for it as a whole.

 

[pennshome723]

I'll have a pint of whatever you're on Penny.

MegaTraveller, The New Era and T4 were all dead and buried by the time GURPS Traveller hit the shelves in 1998.

T4 may still have been warm, but dead.

Hey dude...something was out at that time....it all blends together and as I said I noticed it but didn't buy it at the time as I did not like Gurps system at all.

 

[HG_B]

I'll have a pint of whatever you're on Penny.

MegaTraveller, The New Era and T4 were all dead and buried by the time GURPS Traveller hit the shelves in 1998.

In the 3 game stores I frequented, All were front and center on sale in '98. Sounds like you did drink a pint, or two...

 

[arentol]

I know other people have pointed this out as well, about the NPC rule, but what you have to remember is that it is an optional rule, you don't have to use it. There are cases where it is useful (such as a dozen enemy soldiers advancing on your well-armed party), and times when it is more useful to do it the other way (like sneaking up behind the guard and trying to knock him out with the butt of your gun). And you don't spread all your damage out between your stats, you do it by groups of hits, each die goes to a characteristic, and the first wound a character takes all goes into one characteristic. Meanwhile that certainly does affect your rolls having your characteristics go down. And once one of them reaches 0, you're out. While it's true that I prefer other systems of combat to this, it is not as broken as you make it sound.

I think you, and many others here, are missing the forest for the trees.

My problem with T5 is that the book was not finished before it was published. Many of the most important systems in the game are under-documented, it needs tons of errata, and it lacks examples that would lead to understanding of how even the simple stuff that is poorly stated works, let alone the complex stuff. The game wasn't done, and it shouldn't have been published. Marc should have waited 6 months, finished the game properly (with playtesting by people who weren't already hard-core Traveller players, because I think the testers must have just "assumed things" in the book that weren't actually there because of their background knowledge), and then done a Kickstarter.

So I am annoyed that I have received a book that I can't really use. I HAVE to use my manually updated PDF copy and the book is now just bookshelf-candy, and that is disappointing and upsetting.

 

[Supplement Four]

I know other people have pointed this out as well, about the NPC rule, but what you have to remember is that it is an optional rule, you don't have to use it.

No where does it say "optional".

The only way the rule is optional is the way every rule in every rpg is optional: The GM Can Do As He Pleases.

But, it's not really an optional rule.

Are there two different combat resolution procedures? If so, there's obviously a choice of which one to use unless there is a rigid spelled out way to determine which one to use when.

It's spelled out. One is for hordes of NPCs. The other, more detailed method is for PCs.

Assume a standard pistol, since they're semi-automatic. Use your tactics pool to guarantee a first-blood hit, and use AutoFire to boost damage by +2D, and you'll drop your target, right?

Rob, an automatic pistol does not qualify for the Autofire rule unless the weapon is fully automatic--meaning, that you pull the trigger down and the weapon keeps firing until you release.

AutoPistols are semi-automatic and fire single shots.

 

[KDLadage]

A meaningless question, since it was released in that state. It could, conceivably, become meaningful when Marc starts talking about T6, I suppose, since how T5 was done will affect people's perceptions of the inevitable Kickstarter for T6, but until that time, what do you imagine will be accomplished by harping on that question? Will find the answer somehow magically reprint the books with errata in place?

I disagree. Knowing why something happened -- taking the time to learn the underpinnings of the events that lead to a sub-par release -- is a necessary first step in ensuring that if/when T6, T5 Revised, or whatever it may be called at that point is released, the same circumstances do not prevail and result in the same level of document.

Granted, it is perhaps more of a thought experiment for us. But one would hope -- even insist in some circumstances -- that Mr. Miller would say something (here or on the Kickstarter page) that indicates that {a} he is aware of the flaws, {b} understands why those flaws exist, and {c} is working towards a solution.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[mechascorpio]

(deleting simply because it was in reply to a post now gone, and out of context looks like an attempt to stir trouble)

 

[atpollard]

Thread cleaned up to improve the signal to noise ratio.

[m;]Let's try to continue without the personal attacks.[/m;]


PM me if you think something was removed that belongs.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I kickstartered this a year ago.... I was so looking forward to T5.

But really? This thing is a dog. My book keeps me up at night with the howling from my book shelf. According to the rules, an unarmored npc can't even be hurt by me and my pistol. And I have three stats to spread out damage to before I pass out so an npc can shoot me three times and I suffer no ill effects? But stab me with a sword and I will bleed out very quick.

The personal combat is garbage. Classic T is better than this... I do have to say the space combat looks better... But damn, you need a math degree to do anything.

I understand some people will love it. More power to them. I for one, am disappointed.

Well, in CT you almost had kind of the same thing. The first group I ever played with chalked it up to cinematic "hit in the shoulder" kind of rules; i.e. "flesh wound"....turnicut and dig out the bullet later, in the meantime pass me a magazine!

And it did seem odd to us that as pistol did less damage than a broadsword, but, if you look at what a broadsword can do to a slab of beef, then it makes more sense.

 

[Murdoc]

I think you, and many others here, are missing the forest for the trees.

My problem with T5 is that the book was not finished before it was published. Many of the most important systems in the game are under-documented, it needs tons of errata, and it lacks examples that would lead to understanding of how even the simple stuff that is poorly stated works, let alone the complex stuff. The game wasn't done, and it shouldn't have been published. Marc should have waited 6 months, finished the game properly (with playtesting by people who weren't already hard-core Traveller players, because I think the testers must have just "assumed things" in the book that weren't actually there because of their background knowledge), and then done a Kickstarter.

So I am annoyed that I have received a book that I can't really use. I HAVE to use my manually updated PDF copy and the book is now just bookshelf-candy, and that is disappointing and upsetting.

Oh I agree that more work should have been done, and could have been done better, for sure. I have plenty of complaints about it myself. I just don't think that the example you gave was a good example of it being unplayable, although I can see how one could interpret it that way. Since it appears that you missed my response to you before, check out my response below:

No where does it say "optional".

The only way the rule is optional is the way every rule in every rpg is optional: The GM Can Do As He Pleases.

But, it's not really an optional rule.

I guess you missed my second post too, lookee here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=444771&postcount=8

Rob, an automatic pistol does not qualify for the Autofire rule unless the weapon is fully automatic--meaning, that you pull the trigger down and the weapon keeps firing until you release.

AutoPistols are semi-automatic and fire single shots.

Yeah, I spotted that problem too. At least SnapFire still adds 1D though. Not perfect, but at least makes it possible. Still, I'd use V0/2 for these cases.

I think the main reason some people are going around in circles in some of these arguments is that they are not properly defining the parameters of the discussion. This is seldom necessary, but in this case it is. We are conflating two different topics here: 1) How well do the T5 rules work as written? (and subsequently, how can they be improved?), and 2) Is the game so broken that it is not worth bothering with? This is why someone will point out that some rule is broken, and makes it impossible (or at least highly undesirable) to play (discussion 1), and then someone else points out that you can still play it if you house rule it/ignore it/interpret it a certain way/etc. (discussion 2). Then the first person says that's just an excuse and it should have been made better (discussion 1), and so on. So in order to make any progress, lets just be clear which discussion we are having so others know how to respond, instead of going in circles, like has happened so many times on here I've noticed. Some people seem to get this already, so good for them. Me, yes I acknowledge that the game is practically unplayable strictly as written (or at least enough highly undesirable to do so given its problems) (discussion 1). Does this mean I throw it out? Not at all (discussion 2). I already have a hefty house-rule file, and it continues to grow, but I know as I do I am building (at least for myself and my players) the best Traveller yet, taking advantage of all the really cool innovations T5 has to offer, while leaving the junk behind. I share and discuss these (and other) house rules with others so that they can do the same if they wish. But I will also discuss T5's inherent problems and how they should be fixed, in errata, in some next version, whatever. That is a different discussion.

 

[Shonner]

Can you point out where in the rules that it says this is optional? That section on page 214 is very specific. Interestingly, it's also the only place in the entire book where the word NPC shows up. The table on page 222 is very specific. Neither the word "option" or "optional" shows up on those pages. No mention of such a rule in the errata.

Or do you mean "you can house rule it and ignore it"?

A lot of people are just ignoring huge junks of the book, if not the entire book. Their favorite version of Traveller still, even though they plan to house-rule 95% of it. When someone says they will be playing a T5 game, it's probably not the case.