Ransoms

[Icosahedron]

Reading about boarding actions, piracy, prize ships, etc, in the CT section got me thinking:

Historically or Travelleresque, how are ransoms calculated? How do you determine what is a reasonable amount to ask for the return of a person? (or a ship) I dunno how such things were figured in mediaeval times, or by today's criminals, or how they would be figured in the far future. Any ideas?

 

[Icosahedron]

Nobody had any thoughts on this, then?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Well...

My first thought will be "do I have to worry about Imperial Drop Marines or the MegaCorp equivalent?"

If this is a negative we now move to the do we know what this one is worth to somebody?

Local Star Trader and I probably go for some tech and some of them there Credits Imperial. A Baron, a couple mil, maybe some weapons, like ACRs. A small time employee of some MegaCorp, depends on their perceived or better yet known response to hostage taking, and ask maybe some product, if it is like robots or mining stuff, or about KCr 50.

Just off the top of my head.

 

[Madarin Dude]

I would guess by just how much they think they would get. I would guess you could figure out a ransom table based on Social Status that would make sense. Provided your pirates are privy to this information.

Social status 7 is 1 million credits every point over add a million ever point under divide by 2 then three etc. Just taking a swag at it.

 

[Lycanorukke]

I would go with 'whatever you can get for of him' - if you are in a war situation you could have several 'bidding' for him as each side wants them. The catch is though the 'high value' targets (corp execs, higher nobles, etc) while having great potential for a windfall, they also tend to have an entourage of armed ships. And grabbing a noble is a sure way to get the Imperial military involved. And as most 'cash' is electronic you would have to get the ransom in either valuable materials (which could be traced by a radioactive marker), equipment (traceable again), or a crapload of credits you can launder.

As for values - these are from around the 1300-1400's. There wasn't any 'fixed' value IIRC, other than plebs (footmen, archers, etc) weren't worth anything.

King John was ransomed for 3 million pounds
14 lesser nobles at the same battle (Poitiers) went for 66,000 pounds
Charles De Blois - 25000 gold ecus (about 300,000 pounds)
The Count of En was sold for 80,000 Florins

It might not seem like much now - but 3 million then was very serious money then. (IIRC They pawned Englands crown jewels to raise it, so it would be like the Imperium selling the Irridum throne)

 

[rancke]

Social status 7 is 1 million credits every point over add a million ever point under divide by 2 then three etc. Just taking a swag at it.

Assuming SL 7 equals the middle middle class, you're talking about a ransom of around 100 years' income.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

Any answer given will be torn to shreds by other people because there are too many variables.

Who is taken and what is their 'worth' and to whom
Was this a random person or was the target planned
What type of response can be expected depending on where you are and the law level, who was taken and their connections
What is the skill/experience of the hostage takers? Will they ask for too much. too little?

and so on

Maybe ships might be held 'hostage' instead of being 'pirated'. How much would the owner or the bank be willing to pay...?

 

[Gadrin]

Reading about boarding actions, piracy, prize
ships, etc, in the CT section got me thinking:

Historically or Travelleresque, how are ransoms calculated? How do you
determine what is a reasonable amount to ask for the return of a person? (or
a ship) I dunno how such things were figured in mediaeval times, or by
today's criminals, or how they would be figured in the far future. Any
ideas?

Well you have to be reasonable and it has to fit the situation.

Ever seen the crime shows where the two-bit thief holds up a gas station and
asks for 100 million dollars and a jet plane after taking hostages ? Ain't
gonna happen. I mean can your PD raise that much ? How about a fraction of
that ?

Are they really gonna do it ? Of course not.

So if you're in that business, say you're a pirate and you take hostages
after capturing a vessel. More than likely you'd have to be able to identify
people to see who they are and how much they're worth. No sense in asking for
a million credits if there's not a chance of that happening.

So you probably find out the planet they're from, whether it's rich or poor
and act accordingly. Usually, rich people will inform you of what they have
(or are worth) in exchange for considerations. That's not always a hard and
fast rule.

So if you're sophisticated enough as a criminal, you'll probably do better
than the guys who shoot for the moon (gamble).

Be prepared for things not always working like clockwork (ie, cha-ching).

Next Chapter: How to release a captive and get paid without getting caught.

>

 

[ThunderChilde]

Talking the Medieval Ages, the ransom was frequently not ruinous to the average Knight(peer of the realm), something on the order of 3 months, to 6 months of his income. Barons and higher, depended on income, size of holdings, and family connections. It could be comparable to the Knight's, or more. As I recall, King John was ransomed for 1 years income as Head of State, being in essence, the State Personified.

I really cannot remeber what any ships were ransomed for. The muslims in North Africa were ransoming Christian sailors and whole crews for centuries.
The ransoms seemed to have started out at around 2-3 years wages for the crew, ships were never returned. Overtime as the ransoms were paid either by charities, or by nations, the ransoms went up, eventually to astronomical levels.

The somalis are ransoming ships, crews and thier cargoes for a small fraction of thier worth, 2-5%.

 

[boomslang]

Historically or Travelleresque, how are ransoms calculated? How do you determine what is a reasonable amount to ask for the return of a person? (or a ship) I dunno how such things were figured in mediaeval times, or by today's criminals, or how they would be figured in the far future. Any ideas?

There is an excellent article in WIRED magazine this month that is an economic analysis of the present-day Somali pirate business model.

It is pretty thorough, and can provide food for thought when performing a similar analysis in a TU...

 

[rancke]

Many years ago, I analysed various data from the Late Roman Republic and Early Roman Empire and figured out that an ordinary business slave cost two years salary to a freeman with the same skills (i.e. doing the same job). I've long ago lost the calculations, and I won't guarantee that I didn't get them wrong, but if I was right, a routine ransom would be somewhere in that neighborhood. Possibly a bit more, to prevent the captors from just selling the captives as slaves. Say, three years' salary? Or 2.5 years'?


Hans

 

[Ptah]

Whatever the going rate is, I imagine the JTAS would publish a yearly issue on it. If piracy is common, this something I'm sure you would get insurance for.

This then opens up the whole area of insurance fraud and the possibility of the insurance investigator as adventurer.


I like the SS based idea as a rough guide, but I'd make it non-linear, for example:

SS Pirate Asking Price

1 Your more scum than us, can we follow you?
2 Your scum like us, want to join?
3 What's in your pockets?
4 5,000
5 10,000
6 50,000
7 100,000
8 200,000
9 400,000
10 1,000,000
11 2,000,000
12 4,000,000
13 8,000,000
14 16,000,000
15 Man, we really shouldn't be doing this.


For ships you can easily get insured for 1% to 5% of value.

 

[Gaming Glen]

I like the SS based idea as a rough guide, but I'd make it non-linear, for example:

SS Pirate Asking Price

1 Your more scum than us, want to join?
2 Your scum like us, want to join?
...

You mean [1] isn't "You're more scum than us, can we follow you?"?

 

[Ptah]

You mean [1] isn't "You're more scum than us, can we follow you?"?

But of course, edit made.

 

[Icosahedron]

Thanks guys, there's a couple of rules of thumb I can use there. I particularly like the link to salary, I think that might make ransoms substantial but affordable.

I think the million credits for Soc 7 Mr Average is maybe a bit off, though. I reckon if everyone I know sold everything they own, I'd be lucky to raise a million to ransom myself! Realistically, I doubt if I could raise a tenth of that. Maybe I'm not as average as I thought I was?? o:

Thinking about it that way, perhaps 2-3 years salary is about right. You wouldn't be worth the effort and risk for much less than twice the kidnapper's salary, and you'd be hard-pressed to raise more than 3 times your own salary unless you had some very rich and generous friends!

Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[Madarin Dude]

I agree it was a ballpark assessment. I base a credit on being worth one half dollar and got the figure I think from a movie. I still like the idea of having an average rate and dividing it or doubling it. Maybe 100k as the base figure might make it work out better.

 

[aramis]

the credit corresponds to between $3 and $5. Most ransoms that get paid are well under a year's income for the ransomee's family... the rest tend to get law enforcement involved. The money in somalia is for getting the ship and cargo back under way; the crew are almost expendable, save for the fact that replacing them mid cruise is problematic.

 

[Major B]

Maybe ships might be held 'hostage' instead of being 'pirated'. How much would the owner or the bank be willing to pay...?

Maybe it would be more important to consider how much the insurance company would be willing to pay.

Just a thought.

 

[CosmicGamer]

the credit corresponds to between $3 and $5. Most ransoms that get paid are well under a year's income for the ransomee's family... the rest tend to get law enforcement involved. The money in somalia is for getting the ship and cargo back under way; the crew are almost expendable, save for the fact that replacing them mid cruise is problematic.

Wonder who pays out to families when they sue because the company didn't properly protect their employees? In the one source, Piracy occurs in less than one percent of the ship traffic. Let a few crews 'expend' and you could see all crew on every ship requiring a larger amount of $ to work in those areas.

 

[aramis]

Already do, for that gulf...

Rescue of the crew isn't the insurer's priority. It's the vessel. Even the crews life insurance payout will be dwarfed by the ship losing a cargo, let alone the ship.