Question(s) about Battledress

[apoc527]

Ok, so I know that Battledress is designed as a vehicle. How does it *play?* I mean, do you simply treat people in battledress as normal armored characters, or do you need to use the vehicle combat rules?

Also, I know that BD has an effective AR of 15 versus personal weapons, but what happens when something penetrates? Does it go to the pilot or to the BD's SI? This is a fairly important question, and I'm really not sure what the answer is.

Finally, let's say I want to create Battledress at TL14 with a built in grav engine (like some of the models in GURPS: Traveller Ground Forces). How would I do that? I've yet to actually (ever) design a ship using T20 or HG rules, but it looks to me that I'd simply want to add a unit or two of Grav propulsion and I'd be set. Can someone with more experience in this help me out? Thanks!

 

[themink]

It plays as a normal infantry (well a massively up armed/armoured infantry)

If you give them a powerplant/battery plus a grav unit (or portions thereof) then the infantryman can fold his legs up and start zipping arround the battlefield like a vehicle (ditto if you put jets/track/wheels on them)

Morally a Grav Battledress trooper is a tiny vehicle that can turn into an infantry man if it is more conveniant.

(PS Remember to supply power to the grav unit)

 

[LtHavoc]

Also, I know that BD has an effective AR of 15 versus personal weapons, but what happens when something penetrates? Does it go to the pilot or to the BD's SI?

IMTU you apply it to the pilot. At least as long as the BD is basically just an armourplated exoskeleton. If not I we are talking about Mechwarrior: T20 edition...... Now, thats an idea....hmmm.....PPC anyone?

 

[LtHavoc]

While on BDs I have a follow-up question...admittedly a Gearhead one.

When a shell does not penetrate, what happens to the guy in the suit? Talking about tank-size shells here, not small arms.

I am pretty sure a WWII German Tiger E would not be able to penetrate a battledress with it's main gun. Mostly due to the solid 88mm iron core shot would break up on impact, which would happen if it fired at any modern tank. Huge dent, but no penetration.

But still, penetration of not, it delivers over 5MJ of energy to the BD at ranges under 500m and it sort of feels strange that a TL15 BD guy just walks away after getting a 8kg projectile @ 800m/s in the stomach.

Or is the magic all in gravitics?

--
Lt

 

[bryan gibson]

admittedly, this is in no way an official answer... bit in my traveller universe....

doesn't penetrate, but still we are talking a HUGE amount of energy, so i have always handled thusly....
tank hits armor, and assuming no penetration the guy gets knocked on his ass bigtime, put back likely several meters, and unless he saves, well, when the medic opens him up about all that's left to be done is hosing the pilot out of the armor with disinfectant

conversly, also from handling it in game.. a guy in the much vaunted BD gets run down by a tank (dont ask... long story)then strictly speaking he might not suffer a penetration hit but as a rule his companions will hear a sound much like stomping a lobster. feel free to use your imagination on the results, but they ain't pretty.

Bryan

 

[GypsyComet]

Under normal circumstances, damage that gets past the AR of Battledress is simply doing damage to the SI of the suit, which has an SI of 25. Since even a Gauss Rifle on full auto can do this, BD isn't quite as proof against damage as you might like...

In the case of critical hits, the AR is ignored (though the scale adjustment isn't) so damage goes much more directly to the SI of the suit, AND you roll on the chart on page 164, which could ruin the BD wearers day. There are a fair number of results on that table that will lead straight to wearer damage...

 

[Commonman]

Well I dont think of battle dress being like a mech nor do I see it as the BD shown in the art work, I see as being more like the armor worn by Terran forces in starcraft. The size of BD is large so it is bigger than a normal 'umie but not by much. Also, using the vehicle damage rules is what I do IMTU if BD was like regular armor were the damage goes straight to the user than it would have been designed like all other armour. I like the vehicle design aspect to BD it is a good starting point for alot of modification. Also, I like to have more of a cinamatic feel to my game so even if the BD gets hit by a hvy weapon they still stand there with the cool smokey look.

 

[LtHavoc]

Since even a Gauss Rifle on full auto can do this[snip]

IMTU I do not allow the increased damage thing of full auto on vehicles or full body armour unless the weapon have a chance to penetrate with a single shot.

On armours that do not have full coverage it is ok, since the hits may be on the exposed areas (like a flak jacket).

But then, I'm a uncurable Gearhead

 

[Simon Jester]

My take on things:

BD Trooper gets hit with 88mm solid shot, he's going to wind up on his butt and probably hurting. He would probably take a number of Stamina points equal to the damage of the round (remember this is vehicle/vehicle combat so no scale adjustment for damage, as in vehicle/crunchie combat) and a number of LifeBlood points equal to the number of the rounds damage DICE. Give him a Reflex save to reduce damage by half (he saw it coming and was able to "go with the blow"). He would also have to make a Fortitude save to remain conscious (I may not require this roll if he makes the Reflex save).

As for getting run over: This would be considered a "Touch" attack, and would bypass AC/AR, making it deadly indeed. To actually crush a BD trooper like a cockroach, however, the damage inflicted would have to be applied to Structural Integrity first, full rating on hard ground, and only half on soft ground (since the tracks on a tank are designed to lower it's ground pressure, it's more likely to just shove the BD trooper butt-first into the dirt. Hope his buddies have some shovels handy ). Should any damage, even one point, go beyond the SI rating, it gets applied straight to the pilot's Lifeblood, and I would probably require the character to make a Fortitude save to remain alive, him having been so damn stupid and slow enough to let a 30 mph tank run him over.

Just my Cr 0.02.

Simon Jester

 

[Scarlett]

From an old ct player's perspective ....

I have a hard time accepting an armored suit (any tech level - powered or otherwise) as capable of withstanding a direct hit from a tank round (even with kinetic energy causing the wearer to "slide on his butt several meters"). To me TL15 Battledress isn't equivalent to a mech ... or even a WWII tank or anything or such mass (no matter what the tables and charts portray).

As a matter of physics .... mass itself plays a very important part. Even if a tank round at close range is unable to penetrate Battledress (which I find unrealistic), the kinetic energy wouldn't just knock the target on it's butt and make it slide. It'd more likely would result in a much more violent tumble, spin or sudden jolt that would overtax even the most advanced inertial dampner, leaving broken bones and internal injuries to deal with. (Or my grittier version ... if it penetrates ... the torso for instance ... head and limbs pop off rather nicely. Chances are ... it will at least crack up the armor, send the wearer flying/tumbling like a rag doll thrown across the room by an angry child and in the process, instantly turn the wearer into a former vertibrate. But .. hehe ... that's me.)

I picture the armor of "Starship Troopers" fable and reputation capable of alot of fantastic feats. Re-entry, speed, surveillence, stealth, withstanding damage from all sorts of weapons up to (but probably not including) autocannons, withstanding (for the most point) damage from mines and small explosives (kinetic transference still applicable).

But taking an 88 in the gut ... sliding on his butt a short distance ... having to take a few seconds `cause he was winded and his ears are ringing ... nope - can't picture that one.

Like I said, earlier .... that's me.

 

[themink]

I'm with FLS here (and directly against Simon Jester)

If the Battledress is run over, unless you have a REALLY high ground pressure (ie railway wheels) then they should be fine - a little ticked off, some ports full of sand, but fundamentally OK.

If you hit one with an 88mm (Field Artillary) it does 6d12. Assuming TL10 Heavy Battledress maxed out in armour (10) then the damage coverts to 6d12. pick the high number and subtract 4. Any damage that penetrates is converted back to personal scale and your subject may not feel very religious, but will be very "holey".

Result -
i) if the 88 was a very glancing shot (all 6 dice under 5), the BD trooper will be spun arround and landed on his butt a long way away.

ii) The victim is very dead and needs to be dropped into a high tech autodoc otherwise you can pull out your d6 and start again.

The above follows my interpretation of the rules. If the armour is beefed enough that the shot is unlikely to penetrate (ie TL15 Heavy Battledress) then the kinetic Energy still has to go somewhere. Even TL7 artillary has a lot of KE and the suit is not going to be able to damn the effect. If it were able to, then you could run the thing in reverse and you can fly with a huge Accel.

If the Round is a armour piercing one of some sort (HEAT, APFSDSDU etc) rather than a lump of lead, then it will be worse again as the modifiers start eating into your armour.

Fundamentally, the reason you have DB troopers is that they can hide like infantry - otherwise you would put all your troops in vehicles. They are just VERY tough infantry. If you want something that can take a direct hit from artillary, use a spaceship (Even a TL7 ship can be made immune to anything but a crit from an 88mm)

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by LtHavoc:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Since even a Gauss Rifle on full auto can do this[snip]

IMTU I do not allow the increased damage thing of full auto on vehicles or full body armour unless the weapon have a chance to penetrate with a single shot.

On armours that do not have full coverage it is ok, since the hits may be on the exposed areas (like a flak jacket).

But then, I'm a uncurable Gearhead </font>[/QUOTE]And one that apparently never ran the numbers in Book 4. Under Book 1 rules with the Book 4 Gauss Rifle, Battle Dress is no panacea, as anyone with a little skill and choice of engagement range can damage the BD wearer reasonably often.

Given that default (as opposed to the steady increase in protection granted by BD in each later edition), I'm reasonably happy with the T20 rule as it stands.

 

[Bruce]

One other factor you are all not considering...
That 88MM tank ran is, in most cases, AP ammo.

So, with AP ammo, let's ay it's +3 AP, then you'd take off 3 AR's from the Battledress to make it a 7...Your 6d12 round will take the highest of a d12 roll and apply it to the SI of the suit.

AP ammo is the great equilizer...watch it carefully in your games.

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Bruce:
One other factor you are all not considering...
That 88MM tank ran is, in most cases, AP ammo.

So, with AP ammo, let's ay it's +3 AP, then you'd take off 3 AR's from the Battledress to make it a 7...Your 6d12 round will take the highest of a d12 roll and apply it to the SI of the suit.

AP ammo is the great equilizer...watch it carefully in your games.

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

________________________________________________
I had an ugly thought of MT-COACC 10, 20, and 30cm Autocannon AAA fire from a moderate (TL6-8) world getting the HEAP Flak out for a Drop capsule aslt just then...
And for all the decoys they miss/ or chaff drops that foil their fairly simple radars...have em turned against the BD Grav Troops as they swoop up from the Drop Zone to seize a starport...targeting then, on LOS...Fugly

 

[justacaveman]

I'm using these revised scale reduction rules for personal weapons vs vehicles/ships.

Vehicle Size Damage Reduction
Medium -0
Large -2
Huge -4
Gargantuan -6
Colossal -8

Ship Size Damage Reduction
Tiny -4
Small -6
Medium -8
Large -10
Huge -12
Gargantuan -14
Colossal -16

Also I'm adding a damage bonus for vehicle/ship weapons vs small vehicles (not ships). This bonus is equal to +1 die of damage per size category smaller than huge.

Also I've put an upper limit to AR's equal to the TL - Size Factor. The Size Factor = Max Size Category - Actual Size Category (i.e. Colossal - Huge = Size Factor 2). Thus a TL12 Large vehicle would have a Max AR of 9.

Critical hits are multiplied after scale reduction, and work just like a reversed form of scale reduction. Extra dice from critical hits remove negative points first. Thus a Gauss Rifle that does 2d12 vs personnel, will do 1d12-3 vs a Huge vehicle. If a critical hit is scored, the Gauss Rifle will do 1d12-2 to the vehicle. If the same Gauss Rifle fired a 4-round burst instead, the damage would be 4d12 vs personnel, 1d12-1 vs the Huge vehicle, and 1d12 to the vehicle on a critical hit.

I'm using these rules because the description of Battle Dress on page 285 of the THB states "However' even the heaviest Battle Dress does not turn the wearer into an invulnerable tank.", yet the standard rules do just that. I have a problem with a guy in an "advanced and powered version of combat armor" (page 209) being able to take the same hit as a main battle tank.

I think these modifications address the issue without being overly complicated. I am definitely open to suggestions on how to work these things out in actual practice.

 

[apoc527]

Originally posted by Bruce:


AP ammo is the great equilizer...watch it carefully in your games.

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

Heh. That's one way of putting it. I actually take the stance that AP ammo is what makes T20 combat and weapon technology make sense. Otherwise, armor is way too effective against most small arms. I'm considering giving energy (laser and plasma/fusion) guns their own "Natural AP" bonus and assuming that most newish rifles fire some kind of SLAP round (Standard Light Armor Piercing).

Example- the Gauss Rifle at TL13 (IIRC), IMTU will fire a standard 4mm AP dart. It will probably have an AP rating of 4 or so. To me, this just makes sense. To others, it might be sickeningly "broken."

 

[themink]

Rather than give everyone AP rounds, just increase the "base cost" for armour by that amount - and reduce personal armour by the same amount.

Unless you prefer having the occassional soph using "non-AP" rounds. (ie all those civilians and players who don't have access to military hardware)

 

[apoc527]

I like it the way it is actually. It makes sense to me that AP ammo will be a common thing in the future. Armor materials are likely to get light and strong enough to make today's standard "hunting round" completely ineffective. Hell, even in today's military, light AP rounds with steel caps or cores are common as dirt.

I just think it's the logical way to go. In Aliens, Hicks says they fire a "standard light armor piercing explosive" round. That thing must cost a bundle per round, but it's the most effective way to kill an enemy soldier when he's got that high tech armor on.

In fact, how about this-

APEX rounds- These rounds incorporate both a small explosive charge and an armor piercing tip. They can have a maximum AP value of (TL-2)/2. Furthermore, they deal an extra 1d4 of damage that armor does not affect (ie, straight to Lifeblood).

If d4 seems a bit low, I might consider a d6. However, it starts to get really messed up, since you have to then start to account for armor designed to defeat these things (ie, personal "reactive armor").

 

[themink]

I'm not sure why you need AP ammo for normal combat - ACR/SMG vs Cloth - the weapons fire bursts that mean the hit is about as deadly as a single round vs no armour (ie very deadly)

Very occassionally, a crit will be rolled and the victim goes down (regardless of armour or size - crits really hurt)

If your "normal" combat is between people in Combat armour then you can expect them to be using burst fire and possible AP ammo. Just like we do today. (the 5.56 NATO and 5.45 Bloc rounds both have a penetrator - I'd probably give them +1 or +2) - ACR on single shot d12-7 vs Combat armour - damage still gets through

If you are shooting at light vehicles - (AR1-3) the armour just makes the damage less effective - but even a body pistol can hurt it.

If you are shooting at Heavy Vehicles (TL10 ish) then you will still sometimes penetrate with an SCR on full auto - and do a little tiny bit of damage

If you are shooting at Heavy high tech vehicles either get a tank buster weapon, or use a fusion/plasma gun.

Personal weapons can penetrate the "equivalent tech" armoured vehicle. If anything I would say that vehicle armour is under-rated. Notice that Combat armour is as "tough" as modern light armoured vehicles (ie AR2) very impressive

 

[apoc527]

Also, I'm slightly confused, as I've found some contradictory answers-

In battledress (the original point of this thread...heh, ain't topic drift great?), does damage have to get through SI BEFORE affecting the pilot or does any damage through AR affect the SI & pilot (like half and half) or does it all just affect the pilot. Also, if you have a vehicle weapon hitting a guy in BD, in simple T20 terms, does any excess damage "scale up" when it begins to affect the character?