• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Question about minor races

Snowed in, got bored.
Decided to print a paper map of the Imperium and place known minor races. Little red dots all over map, names printed beside them. Expanded spinward, more red dots. Notice some clusters, Spinward Marches, Far Frontiers. Some sectors not so much so.

Here's my question: According to one source there are 439 known minor races. The Minor Race list in Tiffany Star isn't any where near 400+ minor races.

Is there an updated Minor Race List?
Has anyone placed Minor Races in this manner before?

Another Question:
The Last issue of The Travellers Digest interior cover illo shows a four armed bipedal fur covered alien on a table. At first I thought it was a Salika, but they don't have four arms and have only two digits on their arms.
Any Idea what race this is?

More Questions:
The Cover Illo of Megatraveller Journal 1 shows a Khethis, homeworld Giranami/Deneb, was this race ever developed?
 
Another Question: The Last issue of The Travellers Digest interior cover illo shows a four armed bipedal fur covered alien on a table. At first I thought it was a Salika, but they don't have four arms and have only two digits on their arms. Any Idea what race this is?


Theophilus,

If memory serves that race is a "relic" of sorts recovered from an Ancient stasis "loop". The loop resembles an Ancient teleportation disc. While objects passed through it "disappear", they don't show up at another disc or inside a pocket universe. Instead, they're held in some sort of statis. The aliens figure in the adventure published in the issue.

The incident resembles an aside in one of Niven's Known Space stories in which a living sophont is recovered from a Slaver Statis Box.


Regards,
Bill
 
Theophilus,

If memory serves that race is a "relic" of sorts recovered from an Ancient stasis "loop". The loop resembles an Ancient teleportation disc. While objects passed through it "disappear", they don't show up at another disc or inside a pocket universe. Instead, they're held in some sort of statis. The aliens figure in the adventure published in the issue.

The incident resembles an aside in one of Niven's Known Space stories in which a living sophont is recovered from a Slaver Statis Box.


Regards,
Bill

Not even an aside, it's the starting point of <i>World of Ptavvs</i>, which is a damn good first novel.
 
Not even an aside, it's the starting point of <i>World of Ptavvs</i>, which is a damn good first novel.


Starviking,

Yes, there's the Thrint in it's stasis suit, the so-called "Sea Statue". There's also another brief mention too.

It's in one of the short stories IIRC. Niven is explaining why everyone scans systems with deep radar and why Slaver stasis boxes are so fantastically valuable and fantastically dangerous. He goes on to mention some of the things found in them, a widget that revolutionized a certain industry, the "soft weapon", and a small sophont who was "the last of her kind" or something like that.


Regards,
Bill
 
Here's my question: According to one source there are 439 known minor races.
What's the source? The reference I know of is not an exact number (About 100 in the Imperium, about 400 in the entire Charted Space, and I can't recall exactly where I got that, but it was a canon source).

The Minor Race list in Tiffany Star isn't any where near 400+ minor races.
It's one of the perennial problems of settings with advanced information processing. Strictly speaking any character within reach of a data terminal should be able to procure a complete and (more or less) exact list of known minor races. In practice, no game company can provide even a fraction of all the knowledge that ought to be available. Not even if it worked for thirty years and hundreds of fans labored to write additional stuff. Just imagine the amount of wordage you'd need to provide a single page of basic information for every system in Charted Space. Now add a decent writeup for every interesting world. It just can't be done. So we have a complete list of known major races, a fairly filled-out (about 3/4) list of known minor human races (not counting variant human races), a decent fraction (1/4? 1/3?) of known minor non-humans of the Imperium, and a very incomplete list of known minor non-humans in all of Charted Space.

That's just the way it has to be.

Has anyone placed Minor Races in this manner before?
What manner? Making a map with them? I haven't heard about any before. It's a good idea for an author's tool, but I don't think I'd care to provide my players with one. It would prevent[*] me from introducing a new minor race if I needed one for an adventure.

[*] Well, not actually prevent. At a pinch I can always ask my players to accept a retcon of previously supplied material. But I prefer to avoid retcons as much as possible.​


Is there an updated Minor Race List?
We're trying to build one over on the Traveller Wiki (http/traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page).

More Questions:
The Cover Illo of Megatraveller Journal 1 shows a Khethis, homeworld Giranami/Deneb, was this race ever developed?
Not to my knowledge.


Hans
 
Starviking,

Yes, there's the Thrint in it's stasis suit, the so-called "Sea Statue". There's also another brief mention too.

It's in one of the short stories IIRC. Niven is explaining why everyone scans systems with deep radar and why Slaver stasis boxes are so fantastically valuable and fantastically dangerous. He goes on to mention some of the things found in them, a widget that revolutionized a certain industry, the "soft weapon", and a small sophont who was "the last of her kind" or something like that.


Regards,
Bill

That rings a bell - maybe that reference is in the short story "The Soft Weapon"?

I shall have to dig out some of my Niven books on my next trip home.
 
Sounds like a cross between Soft Weapon, an ancient artifact weapon story, and World of Paatavs (sp?), where a Thrint, last of a race of telepathic slavers is resurrected from emergency stasis after millions of years.
 
What's the source? The reference I know of is not an exact number (About 100 in the Imperium, about 400 in the entire Charted Space, and I can't recall exactly where I got that, but it was a canon source).

My mistake, The reference is:
Megatraveller Journal #1, Page 16, A Concise History of the Rebellion. Under the paragraph titles The Third Imperium.

"...11,000 solar systems. Roughly forty-five hundred high ranking nobles, and an elite group of dukes and duchesses, served as a manifestaion of the Imperium to their worlds. The Third Imperium included 429 distinct, intelligent races,but as a majority humans dominate the political power base...."

My bad, it's 429 distinct intelligent races, in the Imperium.

Now assuming that the 429 number is a "misquote" I'd still need a source for about 100. And races seemed to get added in at random. For instance in Solomani and Aslan, under the Bootean section it says that "they gave citizenship/rights to the "Aliens from Labrys"" (my words), Now I know Labrys was listed at a TL6? Red Zone in the LBB Solomani Rim, but this is the first reference to an alien race. As well the Khethss pictured on MTJ 1 cover, Page one About the Cover gives the race name, "Khethss and "from Giranima" which is Deneb 1334. That's it, that's all we know, never mentioned in any other Deneb reference. They just Magically appear.

Here's what interest's me, I've place races as follows:
Far Frontiers-4, Eshaar Ashah, Jessa, Raynirjik, Satha
Spinward Marches-5 Three occur in one subsector
Deneb-6 again three in one subsector sized area
Corridor-4
Vland-5 again with three in one subsector sized area
Lishun-3
Antares-1
Empty Quarter-1
Reavers Deep-6 five occur within a 16 parsec area

I notice that most of the races I've got info on occur in or near the Great Reft, at least 19 appear to be within jump six of the Reft.

Interesting oddity or grandfathers manipulation, you decide.
 
Interesting oddity or grandfathers manipulation, you decide.


Theophilus,

It's neither actually.

We all know why Minor Races seem to be concentrated in certain regions. It's that those regions have had the most material published for them and nothing more.

We don't need to create some twee, suspender-snapping in-game reason for the those concentrations either. Grandfather and the Ancients already are the explanation or excuse for far too many things in canon so we needn't heap anything more on the broken back of that particular camel.

Also, while I applaud the effort to catalog the many Minor Races already mentioned in canon, I would be very hesitant to add to that number. Far too many of Minor Races, including the Human Minor Races, are nothing more than crap. Their creation shows a distinct lack of creativity and their publication more than a little egotism; they exist not because they're good but because someone wanted to be published.

Let's show the restraint that was lacking in the past and catalog, not add, the Minor Races of Charted Space.


Regards,
Bill
 
Bill,

I know.

I was rushed to leave and added the last part tongue in cheek as they say.
And I fully agree that the reason minor races are concentrated is because those were the published sectors, etc.

Also, I have not advocated adding any new minor races, I'm just looking for canon sources that place minor races in the OTU.

And as to showing restraint, well, that's kinda my point with some of this, I mean when an Illo and single line of text on page one give us a new minor race, or three word's in a paragraph in Sol/Aslan place aliens on Labrys it can quickly roll out of control, as it were. It seems like everyone who publishes something new want's to add their own mark on the OTU, which I understand, but it does get kinda silly sometimes. But I digress.

So, I'll continue to page through old magazines and dusty tomes looking for references to obscure alien races. And while most of it is crap, as Whipsnade has said, I occasionally find a gold nugget in there.
 


Theophilus,

I know you know. I also know you've always known.

I was hijacking your thread as a soapbox to make a general statement.

And I fully agree that the reason minor races are concentrated is because those were the published sectors, etc.

Exactly, and we don't need to fashion some in-game reason for that.

It seems like everyone who publishes something new want's to add their own mark on the OTU, which I understand, but it does get kinda silly sometimes.

Yup. Sadly egotism often trumps common sense.

Look at BtC for example. It not only added several marginal Minor Races in the 429 total, races that were "described" in those single sentence you mention, it also used up two of the much more limited number of Human Minor Races again "describing" them with a sentence or two.

The "explanation" for BtC's Minor Races was that The Traveller Adventure crammed three Minor Races into the Aramis Subsector and so each of the other subsectors in the Marches should have as many as three Minor Races too. Of course that's nothing more than an excuse, most definitely not an explanation, and the number of Minor Races in TTA has always been acknowledged as too much.

An "explanation" for the additional Human Minor Races BtC wasn't even attempted. Furthermore, questions about why those races were added were "answered" by comments which essentially were "I'm an author, I can do whatever the f*ck I want, and I don't need to answer to anyone".


Regards,
Bill
 
So, the CrapPeople of the Far Foodles Subsector aren't Canon?


Beowulf,

No, but the Repetitive-Trope-ians(1) of Bargleargle-XI most certainly are. ;)


Regards,
Bill

1 - Naturally, they are - all together everyone - a honorable warrior race.
 
Last edited:
But what about the "sneaky, thieving, lying, cowardly, scumbag race" that believes only its members are "real people" and all others are "targets"?

They protect each other, and act in their race's interest... and no one else's.

Who's gonna write up that one?
 
My mistake, The reference is:
Megatraveller Journal #1, Page 16, A Concise History of the Rebellion. Under the paragraph titles The Third Imperium.

"...11,000 solar systems. Roughly forty-five hundred high ranking nobles, and an elite group of dukes and duchesses, served as a manifestaion of the Imperium to their worlds. The Third Imperium included 429 distinct, intelligent races,but as a majority humans dominate the political power base...."
Thanks a lot. That's a very interesting reference. Not so much the number of distinct races as the number of high ranking nobles, which is a reference everyone who was involved with writing and playtesting GT:Nobles (me included) had missed. Of course, there's a weasel clause in the term 'high-ranking'. Just what does that cover? High Nobles only? All nobles except barons? All peers? The last possibility would be awfully tight since it amounts to only half the number of inhabited worlds. Too tight IMO. But in any case it demonstrates that any Traveller author who uses the player character generation system to generate NPCs indiscriminately was/is making a silly mistake, since doing so results in one out of 36 NPCs being an Imperial noble baron or better.

My bad, it's 429 distinct intelligent races, in the Imperium.
Let's see, there are roughly 400 minor non-human races, 46 minor, and three major human races, for a total of 450. About 120-130 of those have homeworlds inside the Imperium. Other races would have immigrated to worlds inside the Imperium over the years, though it seems unlikely that it would amount to another 300 in all. But the 429 presumably include variant human races, the number of which we don't know, and surely humans are not the only race in Charted Space that has ever tinkered with its genome, so there'd be some variant non-human races too. Finally, the 'Concise History' is viewpoint writing and the author may have had a very liberal concept of what constitutes a race.

Now assuming that the 429 number is a "misquote" I'd still need a source for about 100.
I'm sorry if you really need a quote, because I can't track it down right now, but I assure you that it's genuine. My memory is sometimes unreliable, but this particular one I'm sure of, having had similar discussions on a number of occasions.

And races seemed to get added in at random. For instance in Solomani and Aslan, under the Bootean section it says that "they gave citizenship/rights to the "Aliens from Labrys"" (my words), Now I know Labrys was listed at a TL6? Red Zone in the LBB Solomani Rim, but this is the first reference to an alien race. As well the Khethss pictured on MTJ 1 cover, Page one About the Cover gives the race name, "Khethss and "from Giranima" which is Deneb 1334. That's it, that's all we know, never mentioned in any other Deneb reference. They just Magically appear.
Indeed. It's particularily problematic when it comes to minor human races, as Traveller authors will add another one at the drop of a hat. The canonical figure averages out at roughly one per sector. Of course, that's an average, and there are sectors that don't have any, but places like Reaver's Deep and Trojan Reach are definitely over their quota with three each. ;)

I've place races as follows:

[...]
Far Frontiers-4, Eshaar Ashah, Jessa, Raynirjik, Satha
Spinward Marches-5 Three occur in one subsector
Oh, there are more than five even if you ignore the six that BtC added. The three in Aramis subsector, the natives of Craw, the Larianz of Byret, the Shriekers , the unnamed natives of Tionale, and the unnamed[*] natives of 457-973. And that doesn't actually preclude more cropping up, since there has been no canonical statement that these are the only ones.

[*] Called the Pelouse in BtC.​

Deneb-6 again three in one subsector sized area
Corridor-4
Vland-5 again with three in one subsector sized area
Lishun-3
Antares-1
Empty Quarter-1
Reavers Deep-6 five occur within a 16 parsec area
The canonical number comes to an average of three minor non-human races per sector, but there's really nothing implausible about random chance placing clusters of homeworlds. In fact, an even distribution would be much more implausible. I've forgotten most of the statistics I leared 30 years ago, but I believe one concentration like the eight in the Spinward Marches is not really unlikely. Even 14 (as keeping the six BtC added) wouldn't be wildly unlikely, although it would be pushing it. (I understand that TPTB are planning to retcon the BtC races away, but I would actually favor keeping the ones that got a decent writeup and only dropping the ones that were just a one-line reference. But that's by the way.)

Interesting oddity or grandfathers manipulation, you decide.
Perfectly plausible result of random distribution.


Hans
 
Last edited:
We all know why Minor Races seem to be concentrated in certain regions. It's that those regions have had the most material published for them and nothing more.
That's true, but it's a meta-explanation and thus useless as an in-universe explanation.

We don't need to create some twee, suspender-snapping in-game reason for the those concentrations either. Grandfather and the Ancients already are the explanation or excuse for far too many things in canon so we needn't heap anything more on the broken back of that particular camel.
Fortunately that's true too. Random chance is a perfectly adequate explanation for the various clusters of homeworlds we've seen so far, with the arguable exception of 8 or 14 races in one single sector.

Also, while I applaud the effort to catalog the many Minor Races already mentioned in canon, I would be very hesitant to add to that number. Far too many of Minor Races, including the Human Minor Races, are nothing more than crap. Their creation shows a distinct lack of creativity and their publication more than a little egotism; they exist not because they're good but because someone wanted to be published.
Again, I agree. Minor non-humans are less of a problem, since there is a greater number of unfilled 'slots', but still, if you (as an official Traveller author) decide to add another one, I do hope you'll make sure you really need one, make it a good one, and do a proper writeup. For minor humans, every sector doesn't absolutely need one, and if you do introduce one, make sure you really need one, make it something other than a proud warrior race, and do a proper writeup.


Hans
 
Last edited:
Back
Top