Problems with system data

[mike wightman]

On a subsector capital? Does not make sense.

I never claimed it did.

This is an exercise in using imagination to explain an oddity - try it rather than being dismissive of everything I write.

Irrelevant. The duke would have to actively prevent anyone from establsihing any ship services, and where's the sense in that?


Hans

He want s to maintain his monopoly; or the local population is very insular and wants minimum off world contact but the world's location is of strategic importance to the Imperium...

 

[rancke]

I never claimed it did.

Then why propose it? An explanation that does not make sense is no explanation at all.

This is an exercise in using imagination to explain an oddity - try it rather than being dismissive of everything I write.

I'm not being dismissive of everything YOU write specifically. I'm dismissing (after careful consideration) expanations that do not make sense.

He wants to maintain his monopoly;

What monopoly?

...or the local population is very insular and wants minimum off world contact but the world's location is of strategic importance to the Imperium...

I haven't addressed the traffic generated by the local population at all, just the traffic generated by the governmental functions of an interstellar capital. Which would, as I argued earlier, by quite enough to generate the economic basis for at least the facilities of a class C starport.

(Incidentally, if a local population is above a certain size it would have to actively discourage interstallar trade in order to prevent the starport from needing to be better than Class E just to service the traffic the population itself generates.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

The other thing to remember here is that the map, like the Travellermap site is a snapshot not a dynamic thing. It shows the Traveller universe at a particular time. Earlier or later than the date of the map things could have or are radically different than what is shown.

It is like digging in the glove box of the car and pulling out your 1974 copy of a Michelin map to determine what's where......

Unless your Michelin map is one of those Classic Era electronic ones that updates automatically every time an X-boat comes in.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Example: Montpelier Vermont is not the most populous city in Vermont nor is it anywhere near a port. Why was it chosen? Montpelier was located near the center of the state, it had only a few settlers, and it was neutral politically. You'd think a capital city would warrant an airport but I believe the closest commercial airport is in another county.

Politics of some kind or another is an excellent explanation for why a subsector capital is located on a world with a lowish population (I'd still be unhappy with a really low population -- you need some level of support), but it does nothing whatsoever to explain a capital without the facilities to function as a capital.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

Unless your Michelin map is one of those Classic Era electronic ones that updates automatically every time an X-boat comes in.


Hans

Those are wrong too... A I bet a friend that driving from a couple of lots I own to my house was shorter than the route her nav system gave here in Arizona. Her nav system was unfamiliar with a couple of paved, but tiny back roads between the two points I knew about. Turns out my route was 9 miles shorter than the nav one.....

That aside, one can always chalk it up to the Scout(s) who did the survey being lazy, stupid, or drunk...... "Ah! This place is dry! To hell with them! Class E starport it is!"

 

[Gray Pennell]

Thats why I said a good scout adventure would be correcting parts of the grand survey. When you are talking tens of thousands of systems with tens of entries even a 1 precent error ration can create some great typos. (I should know we all know I am famous for those.) Or even intentional errors from the scout who was bribed to one who just had a rotten time in the system. Human error will occur.

 

[far-trader]

It's not the IISS or any Scout's fault. The UWP you're referring to is a service of the Traveller's Aid Society and is a very abbreviated and poorly researched Traveller's Guide Lite Edition of the extensive background data collected and available to personnel with proper clearances. The official data is always being updated, while you're lucky if the TAS bothers to update every year. Even then it takes years for the update to be distributed across all of the Imperium. And if your Captain hasn't bothered to update the ship's Library program you're not using even that. Oh, the ship doesn't even have a Library program? Well if you're a TAS member you can get the same data at any TAS Hostel for free in your room or at the front desk. Not a member? Yes, there are free versions, hacked and copied from even older TAS collections, have fun with that...

 

[BytePro]

Or, they used Google Maps...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...arks-invasion-of-Costa-Rica-by-Nicaragua.html

 

[Gray Pennell]

great answer Far-Trader I ll have to use that on players.

 

[Enoki]

It's not the IISS or any Scout's fault. The UWP you're referring to is a service of the Traveller's Aid Society and is a very abbreviated and poorly researched Traveller's Guide Lite Edition of the extensive background data collected and available to personnel with proper clearances. The official data is always being updated, while you're lucky if the TAS bothers to update every year. Even then it takes years for the update to be distributed across all of the Imperium. And if your Captain hasn't bothered to update the ship's Library program you're not using even that. Oh, the ship doesn't even have a Library program? Well if you're a TAS member you can get the same data at any TAS Hostel for free in your room or at the front desk. Not a member? Yes, there are free versions, hacked and copied from even older TAS collections, have fun with that...

I have something like that occur in a novel I'm doing. The ship's Captain has a TAS data base but one of the crew has a set of holocrystals specific to the subsectors they are in that is far more accurate.....

This both pleases and frustrates the Captain to no end....

 

[Hyphen]

That aside, one can always chalk it up to the Scout(s) who did the survey being lazy, stupid, or drunk...... "Ah! This place is dry! To hell with them! Class E starport it is!"

Must be those same PC's^k^k^k _Scouts_ who named the outer planets in the Tavonni system...

 

[rancke]

That aside, one can always chalk it up to the Scout(s) who did the survey being lazy, stupid, or drunk...... "Ah! This place is dry! To hell with them! Class E starport it is!"

That explanation boils down to the same (lack of) solution, though: 'There is no explanation; the UWP is wrong'. Which is fine by me. That's what I always argue (once I've spent a reasonable amount of time trying to come up with an explanation that works, that is). In this case: "The starport is not class E, it's actually Class C+ (C with refined fuel); the Scouts got it wrong".


Hans

 

[rancke]

It's not the IISS or any Scout's fault. The UWP you're referring to is a service of the Traveller's Aid Society...

Is this IYTU? I've always thought the UWPs were the province of the Scouts.

...and is a very abbreviated and poorly researched Traveller's Guide Lite Edition of the extensive background data collected and available to personnel with proper clearances.

You mean, like the extensive, highly pertinent, and up-to-date data contained in the Pilot's Guide to the <Local> Subsector (most recent edition) that is available for purchase at any manned starport?

[Note: Pilot's guides is an assumption on my part, not a canon fact. However, I can't imagine any organized society not having something like that.]

The official data is always being updated, while you're lucky if the TAS bothers to update every year. Even then it takes years for the update to be distributed across all of the Imperium. And if your Captain hasn't bothered to update the ship's Library program you're not using even that. Oh, the ship doesn't even have a Library program?

Well, if the PCs haven't bothered to get the information they need then it's their own fault. I don't count that as denying them access to bog-standard common information. I can't imagine any of my players (or myself) failing to take such an obvious precaution, though.

Well if you're a TAS member you can get the same data at any TAS Hostel for free in your room or at the front desk. Not a member? Yes, there are free versions, hacked and copied from even older TAS collections, have fun with that...

You could visit the local library and peruse their copy of the Pilot's Guide if you're too cheap to buy your own. That requires the existence of a local library, of course, so you might be out of luck om worlds with low populations and/or strange cultures.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

You mean, like the extensive, highly pertinent, and up-to-date data contained in the Pilot's Guide to the <Local> Subsector (most recent edition) that is available for purchase at any manned starport?

[Note: Pilot's guides is an assumption on my part, not a canon fact. However, I can't imagine any organized society not having something like that.]

Even if only to be more coherent to the published MT material, will not be better to say the Astrogator's Guide to the <local> Subsector/Sector ?

 

[77topaz]

Even if only to be more coherent to the published MT material, will not be better to say the Astrogator's Guide to the <local> Subsector/Sector ?

Hmm... has anyone ever thought of actually making one of those?

 

[rancke]

Even if only to be more coherent to the published MT material, will not be better to say the Astrogator's Guide to the <local> Subsector/Sector ?

I was riffing on the two Pilot's Guides published by Gamelords:

Pilot's Guide to the Caledon Subsector
Pilot's Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector

And before someone points out that the Gamelords pilot's guides do not mention the availability of refined fuel at any Class C starport, note that in-setting pilot's guides would be considerably more informative than game books can possibly be.

Astrogator's guides would be fine too. Presumably there could be competing rival publications or the company that covers Reaver's Deep may not cover all of Charted Space.

Just no Navigator's guides, please? Pretty please? As far as I'm concerned and any Traveller rules to the contrary notwithstanding, navigators guide surface ships across puddles; those who guide ships among the stars are astrogators.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

It's not the IISS or any Scout's fault. The UWP you're referring to is a service of the Traveller's Aid Society...

Is this IYTU? I've always thought the UWPs were the province of the Scouts.

It might be MTU? I thought it had at least a grain of canon and was based on some notation to that effect in ancient CT but I can't recall where. If no one else remembers it then maybe it was just a house rule.

But I mean come on, just look at the face of it

A369143-9

That can't possibly be the total information the Grand Survey produces for a star system

Not forgetting GG and such nor the "enhanced" generation of other planets, the star(s) and such of course. It is still self evidently a very abbreviated and incomplete picture.

You mean, like the extensive, highly pertinent, and up-to-date data contained in the Pilot's Guide to the <Local> Subsector (most recent edition) that is available for purchase at any manned starport?

You mean the Navigation (yeah, sorry about the terminology) program of course

That doesn't concern itself with matters below that required for the Pilot/Astrogator to navigate a proper course through normal and jump space.

Well, if the PCs haven't bothered to get the information they need then it's their own fault. I don't count that as denying them access to bog-standard common information. I can't imagine any of my players (or myself) failing to take such an obvious precaution, though.

When taking a summer holiday do you:

Talk to a travel agent and hear about the features of the resort you're staying at? (equal to booking passage on a liner imo)

OR

Check out the website provided by the local chamber of commerce or various AutoClub brochures? (equal to checking the Library program very briefly and superficially or using the services of the TAS)

OR

Study the CIA Fact page for the country? (equal to checking the Library program thoroughly)

OR...

...well, unless you're a diplomat or something the last is generally unavailable. (equivalent to being active duty or hooked up with contacts in the IN or IISS for current full data).

I know where I and most people fall in the above "research" of our casual destinations. And of course most PCs are exceedingly paranoid and Players will claim they have pulled out all the stops and gone to the other extreme, though they will balk at having to pay for it in Cr and time. And then complain when the Ref springs a surprise on them that they feel must have been known to somebody and therefore should be known to them

 

[Dragoner]

I just throw in the caveat that the information may be totally wrong, the only way to know is being there.

 

[Whipsnade]

I just throw in the caveat that the information may be totally wrong, the only way to know is being there.

Very wisely put, and the need to "Be There" or "Send Someone There" is the very conceit behind Traveller the roleplaying game.

 

[rancke]

But I mean come on, just look at the face of it

A369143-9

That can't possibly be the total information the Grand Survey produces for a star system

Not forgetting GG and such nor the "enhanced" generation of other planets, the star(s) and such of course. It is still self evidently a very abbreviated and incomplete picture.

I don't see the problem here. Of course the Scouts produce reams of information from routine updates to grand surveys. That don't mean they can't produce summaries of various lengths too, does it?

You mean, like the extensive, highly pertinent, and up-to-date data contained in the Pilot's Guide to the <Local> Subsector (most recent edition) that is available for purchase at any manned starport?

You mean the Navigation (yeah, sorry about the terminology) program of course

No, I don't mean the Astrogation program.

That doesn't concern itself with matters below that required for the Pilot/Astrogator to navigate a proper course through normal and jump space.

And that's why I didn't mean that program. I meant the handy-dandy 'handbook' program that any prudent merchant skipper consults before he decides on his next destination, long before he starts shopping around for freight, cargo, and passengers, and days before he instructs his astrogator to plot a course.

Call it what you like, but don't tell me no one publishes such a handbook, because I won't believe you.

When taking a summer holiday do you:

Talk to a travel agent and hear about the features of the resort you're staying at? (equal to booking passage on a liner imo)

OR

Check out the website provided by the local chamber of commerce or various AutoClub brochures? (equal to checking the Library program very briefly and superficially or using the services of the TAS)

OR

Study the CIA Fact page for the country? (equal to checking the Library program thoroughly)

OR...

...well, unless you're a diplomat or something the last is generally unavailable. (equivalent to being active duty or hooked up with contacts in the IN or IISS for current full data).

I do make sure I know how to get to my next destination and that I can afford the ticket (Equivalent to checking if fuel is available).


Hans