Pondering starship evolution

[Spinward Flow]

So you would open the door to building at TL=G?

I would do the converse.
I would stop denying that TL=G is possible ... or exists at all ...

But hey, that's just me.

This is CT '81 and CT tech tables

LBB2 (77 and 81) both stop the progression of computer models with 7 (at TL=D) ... and don't include fib options either (which makes sense in a small ship universe that doesn't have to worry about Radiation Hits to craft).

Hence why the (supposedly) TL=F Kinunir class of 1200 ton starships has only a model/7 (+model/3 backup) computer installed in it, rather than a "proper" model/9fib computer. You can't build (yourself) what the rules don't include ... and the Kinunir class of LBB A1 was very obviously designed using LBB2 as the foundation (with bits of LBB5 "pirated" into the design specs as a patch update), rather than being a "clean sheet" LBB5.80 design spec sheet (which then later cause "version problems" with the LBB S9 data entry that required LBB5.80 paradigm changes).



At most I'm saying that there was "a better way" to handle some of the details provided in LBB2, thanks to the benefits of hindsight.
I'm NOT saying that LBB2-3 (as is) ought to be chucked in the bin because they aren't "perfect enough" to play with.

 

[Rupert]

This is CT '81 and CT tech tables, not MT. The dead give away are the letter drives and letter drive TLs.

In CT TL charts disintegrators are TL16, as they are in LBB:4, and matter transport is also available.

MT changed a lot of the technology, maneuver drives being a prime example, then there was jump fuel requirements and then...

My mistake - I didn't recall the CT tables mentioning them, so I didn't check them.

And yes, MT did some very strange things that resulted in a whole bunch of designs having to be done at TL15 for them to work.

 

[aramis]

My mistake - I didn't recall the CT tables mentioning them, so I didn't check them.

And yes, MT did some very strange things that resulted in a whole bunch of designs having to be done at TL15 for them to work.

Most of MT's weirdness on ships is replacing bridges with control panels and porting HG-80 over to Striker... Most.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Most of MT's weirdness on ships is replacing bridges with control panels and porting HG-80 over to Striker... Most.

This was almost 40 years ago, but ...

I remember our Referee trying to work up a "not OTU" setting where the highest TL was B ... and used MT rules to spec out a J2 starship.
It needed over 200 control panels and was something of a conceptual nightmare to keep track of.
We joked that the Engineering skill did nothing more than "inform" crew which control panel out of hundreds did what.

Ironically, that ship didn't last very long in that campaign ...

 

[whartung]

Task: To find the correct control panel
Difficult, Engineering, End, 10 min (hazardous)

Referee: Keep rolling as if the player make succeed until they give up in frustration then say "oh, here it is."

 

[Spinward Flow]

So I was toying around with the idea of sticking with the TL=9 J2+2/2G merchant objective, but wondering if I could (somehow) "downgrade" the drives from D/D/D down to C/C/C drives ... and all of the downstream effects that flow from that decision.

The trick is that as stuff gets "shrunk" ... not everything "shrinks" as drives and hull displacements get smaller.

So in the interest of "keep checking your assumptions" ... I tried asking a not entirely tangential question.

What if I modulated the 24 ton Box "foundation" back into being a 20 ton Box "foundation" for the modular system?
What kind of cascading reshuffle effects might result from that decision?
Break out the calculator ... and ... ... suddenly, the C/C/C drives option becomes more plausible.

Which then brings up the all important question ... okay ... what happened?

---

Well, long and short of it is that I started with the (24 ton) Fighter Decoy-9.

I had been relying on a 24 ton small craft in order to be able to make everything "fit" while also being able to afford the EP required to power up a laser turret AND have a top of the line computer model installed + bridge, combined with 6G/Agility=6 combat performance. At TL=9, that meant a model/3 computer (EP=1) and a triple beam laser turret (code: 3, battery: 1, EP=3) and a 24 ton form factor requires 24/100*6=1.44 EP to produce Agility=6.

• 1+3+1.44 = 5.44 EP demand = Power Plant-C standard drive which can produce up to EP=6

If I was going to "shrink" the Fighter, the only real option ... was to notch down from Power Plant-C (EP=6) to a Power Plant-B (EP=4) ... which would save 3 tons right there, right off the top.

Additionally, reducing tonnage from 24 to 20 would also involve "shrinking" the bridge from 4.8 to 4 tons, which would also mean dropping the 0.2 tons of Jump Capacitors I'd installed into the 24 ton version (for lack of anything better to do with the tonnage) as an emergency reserve in the event of a Empty Fuel condition.

• -(3+0.8+0.2) = -4 tons = 24 --> 20

At TL=9 a model/3 computer would still be demanding EP=1 ... and at 20 tons, Agility=6 requires 20/100*6=1.2 EP.

• Power Plant-B produces EP=4 ... -1 for model/3 computer ... -1 for Agility=6 ... leaves 1.8 EP available for weaponry (basically lasers)
• 1.8 EP is sufficient for 1 laser (pulse or beam)

So, bare minimum, I'd be dropping from a triple laser (EP=3) down to a single laser (EP=1) ... in which case (in a LBB5.80 code/battery context) there was no "advantage" to be had by choosing a beam laser over a pulse laser. A code: 1, battery: 1 (pulse) laser isn't going to be a massive "threat" in space combat ... but for a "You Shall Not Pass!" type of screening partner for a parent (carrier) craft, it gets the job done, because unless the fuel+power plant+laser combo is disrupted the "magazine is bottomless" and the Fighter can endure for an extended duration with offensive capability.

However, if a triple turret is installed and one of the weapons is a (single) pulse laser, that leaves the remaining weapon loadout "slots" with the options of either missile or sandcaster (at TL=9), because they're both EP=0, but have limited magazine capacity (I know that LBB5.80 doesn't pay attention to this, but *I* do for reasons of Intellectual Honesty). Thing is, any combination of code+relative computer size that can achieve a to hit roll of 12+ after subtracting -6DM for Agility=6 and -2DM for Hull: 0 Size is just going to blow right through any kind of (single) sandcaster code: 2 (because TL=9) without even trying ... so a sandcaster is basically a "waste" of a weapon slot.

What I came up with then for the 20 ton Fighter Decoy-9 mounting a Power Plant-B (EP=4 max output) with model/3 computer (EP=1) and Agility=6 (EP=1.2) was a triple turret mounting a missile/pulse laser/missile combination.
This weapon mix enables "offensive threat" (from the laser) without requiring the launching of missiles, in order to "save ordnance" when circumstances are more of a "keep away while breaking off by acceleration" (while screening parent craft in the reserve) condition holds true ... in which the order of the day is to escape rather than cause (crippling) damage to a persistent adversary.

---

If the Fighter was moving from 24 tons to 20 tons (by reducing offensive capability), that would then mean that the Boxes should also shift from 24 tons to 20 tons.

Thing is, the 24 ton Boxes had a really "sweet" set of volumetric dimensions.

• 15m x 7.5m x 3m = 337.5m³ / 14 = 24.10714286 tons ≈ 24 tons (10:5:2 dimensions ratio)
• 10 x 5 deck squares area, 1 deck

Shifting to 20 ton Boxes would require shifting that balance.

• 12m x 7.8m x 3m = 280.8m³ / 14 = 20.05714286 tons ≈ 20 tons (60:39:15 dimensions ratio)
• 8 x 5.2 deck squares area, 1 deck

Okay, that works!

That 8x5.2 deck squares formulation lets me divide up the interior into either 6 or 8 compartments on either side of a central access corridor (single axis) running through the spine of the 20 ton Box.

• 3+3=6 compartments ... 5 staterooms + 1 common area
• 4+4=8 compartments ... 5 staterooms + 3 common areas

Can then reuse the 12m x 7.8m x 3m = 20 tons form factor for the Fighter Decoy-9, so the form factor is interchangeable with the 20 ton Box.

---

But then, where this gets REALLY interesting is what happens when "downshifting" into a starship equipped with C/C/C drives.
Because of the 20 ton form factor, rather than a 24 ton form factor, certain things start "stacking more neatly" overall in the final design calculus. However, rather than just continue to describe things in the abstract, it's probably best to start posting the Naval Architect's Office spec sheet.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Rule of Man Long Trader (Type-AP, TL=9)
220 tons starship hull, configuration: 1 (MCr26.4)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
35 tons for LBB2.81 standard C/C/C drives (codes: 2/2/2, TL=9, EP=6) (MCr66)
64.4 tons of total fuel: 220 tons @ J2 = 44 tons jump fuel + 20 tons power plant fuel

• Basic Power (280 combined tons) + 0 EP = 0.14 tons of fuel consumption per 7d
• Basic Power (280 combined tons) + 6 EP = 2.24 tons of fuel consumption per 7d
• Basic Power (580 combined tons) + 0 EP = 0.29 tons of fuel consumption per 7d
• Basic Power (580 combined tons) + 6 EP = 2.39 tons of fuel consumption per 7d

0 tons for fuel scoops (MCr0.22)
9 tons for TL=9 fuel purification plant (200 ton capacity is minimum) (MCr0.038)
20 tons for bridge (600 ton rating, MCr3)
2 ton for model/2 computer (EP=0, TL=7) (MCr9)
80.6 tons for hangar capacity (MCr0.161.2)

1. Fighter Decoy-9 (Type-FQ, TL=9) = 20 tons
2. 20Sta Box = 20 tons (pilot/gunner, pilot/gunner, navigator, engineer, medic) (5x single occupancy staterooms)
3. 20Lab Box = 20 tons (laboratory: regenerative biome life support V-c for 12)
4. 20Sta Box = 20 tons (steward/steward, ship's troop, 3x high passengers) (3x single occupancy staterooms)

• 0.6 tons for 60 ton capacity collapsible fuel tank storage (MCr0.03)

* External Docking: 380 tons capacity (MCr0.76)

1. 20Env Box = 20 tons (environmentally controlled cargo hold)
2. 20Env Box = 20 tons (environmentally controlled cargo hold)
3. 20Car Box = 20 tons (cargo hold)
4. 20Car Box = 20 tons (cargo hold)

4 tons for vehicle berth: Air/Raft (TL=9) (MCr0.6)
5 tons for cargo hold (Mail Vault conversion ready)

= 0+35+64.4+9+20+2+80.6+4+5 = 220 tons
= 26.4+66+0.22+0.038+3+9+0.1612+0.03+0.76+0.6 = MCr106.2092

= MCr106.2092+(45.71)+(3.86*1.8)+(5.36)+(3.36*1.8)+(1.36*1.8) = MCr172.7232 single production
= MCr106.2092+(45.71)+(3.86*2)+(5.36)+(3.36*2)+(1.36*2) = MCr174.4392 * 0.8 = MCr139.55136 volume production

Crew = 7 (Cr33,255 per 4 weeks crew salaries)

1. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 (chief) = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1/2)*1.1 = Cr7805
2. Pilot-3/Gunnery-2 = (6000*1.2)+(1000*1.1/2) = Cr7750
3. Navigator-1 = (5000*1.0) = Cr5000
4. Engineering-1 = (4000*1.0) = Cr4000
5. Steward-1/Steward-1 = (3000*1.1)+(3000*1.1/2) = Cr4950
6. Medical-3 = (2000*1.2) = Cr2400
7. Ship's Troop (corporal) = (450*3) = Cr1350 (LBB4, p19)

• J2, 2G, Agility=2: 220 + 80 = 300 combined tons (4x 20 ton Boxes)
• J1, 1G, Agility=1: 220 + 380 = 600 combined tons (19x 24 ton Boxes)

---

Revenue Tonnage @ J2/2G = 300 combined tons

• Fighter Decoy-9 docked internally
• 3x high passengers
• 0x low passengers
• 5 tons internal cargo capacity (mail vault ready)
• 40 tons owned environmentally controlled cargo capacity (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, external)
• 40 tons owned cargo capacity (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, external)
• 0 tons collapsible fuel tank in internal hangar
  • Jump Fuel Consumption: 64.4-300*0.2 = 4.4 tons remaining

Revenue Tonnage @ J1/1G = 600 combined tons

• Fighter Decoy-9 docked internally
• 3x high passengers
• 0x low passengers
• 5 tons internal cargo capacity (mail vault ready)
• 40 tons owned environmentally controlled cargo capacity (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, external)
• 40 tons owned cargo capacity (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, external)
• 300 tons chartered third party external cargo capacity (15x 20 ton Boxes)
  • Jump Fuel Consumption: 64.4-600*0.1 = 4.4 tons remaining

Revenue Tonnage @ J2+2/2+2G = 300 combined tons/300 combined tons

• Fighter Decoy-9 docked externally/Fighter Decoy-9 docked externally
• 2x 20Sta, 1x Lab Boxes docked externally/2x 20Sta, 1x Lab Boxes docked externally
• 3x high passengers
• 0x low passengers
• 5 tons internal cargo capacity (mail vault ready)
• 20 tons owned environmentally controlled cargo capacity (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, internal)
• 0 tons owned cargo capacity loaded internally (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, internal)
• 60 tons collapsible fuel tank in internal hangar (occupies 3 of 4x Boxes loaded internal)
  • Jump Fuel Consumption: 64.4+60-300*0.2-300*0.2 = 4.4 tons remaining

Revenue Tonnage @ J1+1/1+1G = 600 combined tons/600 combined tons

• Fighter Decoy-9 docked externally/Fighter Decoy-9 docked externally
• 2x 20Sta, 1x Lab Boxes docked externally/2x 20Sta, 1x Lab Boxes docked externally
• 3x high passengers
• 0x low passengers
• 5 tons internal cargo capacity (mail vault ready)
• 20 tons owned environmentally controlled cargo capacity loaded internally (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, internal)
• 0 tons owned cargo capacity loaded internally (2x 20 ton Boxes, owned, internal)
• 60 tons collapsible fuel tank in internal hangar (occupies 3 of 4x Boxes loaded internal)
• 300 tons chartered third party external cargo capacity (15x 20 ton Boxes)
  • Jump Fuel Consumption: 64.4+60-600*0.1-600*0.1 = 4.4 tons remaining

---

Fighter Decoy-9 (Type-FQ, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1 (MCr2.4, integral fuel scoops)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
1 ton for LBB2.81 standard Maneuver-A (Agility=6 requires 1.2 EP) (MCr4)
7 tons for LBB2.81 standard Power Plant-C (EP=6) (MCr16)
1 ton for fuel

• Basic Power + 0.00 EP= 0.01 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (700d 00h 00m endurance)
• Basic Power + 1.2 EP = 0.43 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (16d 06h 41m endurance)
• Basic Power + 2.2 EP = 0.78 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (8d 23h 23m endurance)
• Basic Power + 3.2 EP = 1.13 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (6d 04h 40m endurance)

4 tons for bridge (2 crew acceleration couches, life support endurance: 12-24 hours) (MCr0.1)
3 tons for model/3 computer (EP: 1) (MCr18)
2 tons for 1x hardpoint + pop up triple turret: missile, pulse laser, missle (laser code: 1, laser batteries: 1, EP: 1) (missile code: 1, missile batteries: 2, EP: 0) (MCr3.2) (LBB2.81, p23) (JTAS #25, p15)
* External Docking: 980 tons capacity (MCr1.96)
2 tons for 1x Small Craft Cabin (MCr0.05, 2 person/weeks life support endurance)
0 tons for cargo hold (MCr0)

= 0+1+7+1+4+3+2+2+0 = 20 tons
= 2.4+0+4+16+0.1+18+3.2+1.96+0.05+0 = MCr45.71 single production

• 0.20G, Agility=0: 1000 - 20 = 980 tons external load (880 tons Big Craft * 1.1 = 968 tons)
• 0.33G, Agility=0: 600 - 20 = 580 tons external load (220 ton Big Craft + 15x 20 ton Boxes = 520*1.1 = 572 tons)
• 0.57G, Agility=0: 350 - 20 = 330 tons external load (220 ton Big Craft + 4x 20 ton Boxes = 300*1.1 = 330 tons)
• 1G, Agility=1: 200 - 20 = 180 tons external load (9x 20 ton Boxes)
• 2G, Agility=2: 100 - 20 = 80 tons external load (4x 20 ton Boxes)
• 3G, Agility=3: 66 - 20 = 46 tons external load (2x 20 ton Box)
• 4G, Agility=4: 50 - 20 = 30 tons external load
• 5G, Agility=5: 40 - 20 = 20 tons external load (1x 20 ton Box)
• 6G, Agility=6: 33 - 20 = 13 tons external load

---

12m x 7.8m x 3m = 280.8m³ / 14 = 20.05714286 tons ≈ 20 tons (60:39:15 dimensions ratio)
8 x 5.2 deck squares area, 1 deck

---

20Lab Box (Type-LU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft custom hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
20 tons for laboratory (MCr4)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+4+0.16 = MCr5.36 single production

---

20Sta Box (Type-RU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft custom hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
20 tons for 5x single occupancy starship staterooms (MCr2.5)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+2.5+0.16 = MCr3.86 single production

---

20Env Box (Type-LU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft custom hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
20 tons for environment tank (MCr2)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
0 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+2+0.16 = MCr3.36 single production

---

20Car Box (Type-AU, TL=9)
20 ton small craft custom hull, configuration: 4 (MCr1.2)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=20cm)
* External Docking: 4x 20 = 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
20 tons for cargo hold

= 0+20+0 = 20 tons
= 1.2+0.16 = MCr1.36 single production

 

[Spinward Flow]

As you can see from the above, this is functionally a 300 ton J2+2/2G starship (220+4*20=300) using C/C/C drives, but which is capable of "swapping around" up to 80 tons of displacement (inside to outside) via use of the 20 ton Box form factor + hangar support (internal and external) in order to modulate its transport capacity depending on the range that needs to be jumped.

• J2 = 3x high passengers + 85 tons cargo capacity (owned)
• J1 = 3x high passengers + 85 tons cargo capacity (owned) + 300 tons cargo capacity (external charter)
• J2+2 = 3x high passengers + 25 tons cargo capacity (owned)
• J1+1 = 3x high passengers + 25 tons cargo capacity (owned) + 300 tons cargo capacity (external charter)

The starship also has an Air/Raft to make marshaling of cargoes+passengers practical at austere locations with minimal (to no) shore support services available, such as wilderness landing zones away from downports. I consider the inclusion of a (grav) vehicle berth in the design spec sheet to be a mark of a "frontier" starship class intended to be capable of operating on the fringes of civilization without needing to be overly concerned with logistical challenges that could otherwise be potentially problematic (in the day to day sense).

The Fighter Decoy-9 (Type-FQ, TL=9) has a (hidden) pop up turret installed in it (costing an additional +1 ton and MCr0.1), so that to most (long range) sensor scans it will appear to be unarmed (before revealing otherwise if forced to fight). This is basically a system defense redesign of the 20 ton Jolly Boat small craft, an interplanetary light runabout/transport class that can be repurposed for a wide variety of assignments.

---

Jolly Boat (Type-QT, TL=9)
20 ton small craft hull, configuration: 1 (MCr2.4, integral fuel scoops)
0 tons for Armor: 0 (TL=9, Composite Laminates, bulkhead thickness=18cm)
1 ton for LBB2.81 standard Maneuver-A (Agility=6 requires 1.2 EP) (MCr4)
4 tons for LBB2.81 standard Power Plant-A (EP=2) (MCr8)
1 ton for fuel

• Basic Power + 0.00 EP= 0.01 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (700d 00h 00m endurance)
• Basic Power + 1.2 EP = 0.43 tons of fuel consumption per 7d (16d 06h 41m endurance)

4 tons for bridge (2 crew acceleration couches, life support endurance: 12-24 hours) (MCr0.1)
0 tons for no computer (MCr0)
0 tons for 1x hardpoint: no fire control reserved, no turret, no weapons (MCr0.1) (LBB2.81, p23)
* External Docking: 80 tons capacity (MCr0.16)
2 tons for 1x Small Craft Cabin (MCr0.05, 2 person/weeks life support endurance)
8 tons for cargo hold: multi-purpose refit ready (MCr0)

= 0+1+4+1+4+0+0+2+8 = 20 tons
= 2.4+0+4+8+0.1+0.1+0.16+0.05+0 = MCr14.81 single production

• 2G, Agility=2: 100 - 20 = 80 tons external load (4x 20 ton Boxes)
• 3G, Agility=3: 66 - 20 = 46 tons external load (2x 20 ton Boxes)
• 4G, Agility=4: 50 - 20 = 30 tons external load
• 5G, Agility=5: 40 - 20 = 20 tons external load (1x 20 ton Box)
• 6G, Agility=6: 33 - 20 = 13 tons external load

12m x 7.8m x 3m = 280.8m³ / 14 = 20.05714286 tons ≈ 20 tons (60:39:15 dimensions ratio)
8 x 5.2 deck squares area, 1 deck

---

The way I see it, the RoM Long Trader is intended to operate with a Fighter Decoy-9 ... but when "your reputation precedes you Mr. Bond" there is the opportunity to skimp on costs by substituting a Jolly Boat instead as the small craft. Although less capable, a Jolly Boat can "suffice" in a lot of circumstances (so long an no one pays too much attention ) ... at least until a combat situation happens.

Warning: Shave credits at own risk!

However, this is also what makes the Fighter Decoy-9 a "viable option" for system defense forces looking to add "under cover patrols" of interplanetary routes to their jurisdiction. So the Fighter Decoy-9 isn't just a "nice to have" for interstellar merchant starships, but also a useful asset for policing of (normal) space lanes without necessarily tipping off the criminal element about what resources are deployed where (barring intel leaks).

As technology advances beyond TL=9, this kind of solution gets rapidly outclassed in the 20 ton form factor ... pushing things closer to the 30 ton form factor in order to accommodate the EP demand of model/4-5 computers (EP=2-3). So the development of this particular "solution" definitely has a "shelf life" to it in the face of technological advancements. However, in terms of a civilian/paramilitary option, it hits something of a "sweet spot" on its own.



This particular iteration of the concept has definitely settled into a highly agreeable "sweet spot" for my design and economic potential sensibilities. Although 3x high passengers capacity seems like a case of "what's your point?" ... it's not an amount that will be hard to fill outside of highly populated origin star systems. In this case, the low capacity for high passengers makes the design better suited for operating as a tramp free trader along the fringes of civilization (which competitors would tend to avoid due to mismatch of supply to demand). Conversely, the 3x high passengers capacity is enough for clients who need to accompany important cargoes to destinations to be able to book passage.

At the same time, I was able to reserve 5 tons for an internal cargo hold, which can be converted into a Mail Vault (generating Cr25,000 upon delivery to final destinations), which can be used to generate a RELIABLE "baseline revenue" stream that can make it reasonable to travel to "economic basket case" mainworlds which would otherwise be avoided by competitors (as profit margin destroyers). Simply delivering Mail 2x per month will cover operational overhead expenses (crew salaries, berthing fees, annual overhaul expense share), leaving any cargo+passengers tickets in the "profit/bonus" category. At the same time, speculative goods arbitrage remains an option on a catch as catch can basis.