PDF

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertFisher:
How many people do you know who play D&D3e, but just printed out the d20 SRD instead of buying the books? Would they have bought the books if the SRD wasn't available? How many people do you know who photocopied a RPG book bought by someone else and played that game for a significant amount of time without buying their own copy? Would they have bought the books if they couldn't get a photocopy?

(My own answers to those questions are: zero, n/a, one, and no.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My answers are: quite a few SRD, some printouts of illegally posted pdf files of original games and very few photocopies (although they were popular when I was in high school). According to WotC, most of the current gamers are in high school or early in colleges courses and, therefore, have limited resources to buy those games. I got ADnD 1st edition in 1982 while I was in high school. Several of my friends made photocopies of those books and use it for years. As far as I remember, TSR made no money from them (at least for the core books) until the 2nd edition was finally published.

It is too easy to copy a pdf file and print the document. There are some servers in the net full of illegal files (not hard to find). Although I have no data evaluating the impact of those files in sales, I guess that they might be much more nocive to small business like FFE than to WotC.

Considering our different experiences with eletronic documents, I can only say that I am sure that works for some, but not for everybody.

 

[Shadow Bear]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
My answers are: quite a few SRD, some printouts of illegally posted pdf files of original games and very few photocopies (although they were popular when I was in high school). According to WotC, most of the current gamers are in high school or early in colleges courses and, therefore, have limited resources to buy those games. I got ADnD 1st edition in 1982 while I was in high school. Several of my friends made photocopies of those books and use it for years. As far as I remember, TSR made no money from them (at least for the core books) until the 2nd edition was finally published.

It is too easy to copy a pdf file and print the document. There are some servers in the net full of illegal files (not hard to find). Although I have no data evaluating the impact of those files in sales, I guess that they might be much more nocive to small business like FFE than to WotC.

Considering our different experiences with eletronic documents, I can only say that I am sure that works for some, but not for everybody.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To try a set of game rule a PDF copy is okay but if I am going to play the game for any length of time I want a real hard copy. Yes you can get by with a printer version but it lacks the feel of the real item.

 

[WendellM]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>if I am going to play the game for any length of time I want a real hard copy. Yes you can get by with a printer version but it lacks the feel of the real item.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. I find this true for non-game books as well. While I like the few electronic versions of books I have (searching for a given phrase is so much easier - Project Gutenberg is great for this for the classic works they cover), for actual reading I much prefer a professionally printed copy. One reason I went for the 12-issue subscription of Traveller's Aide is the expected "Best Of" printed compilation.

As for a PDF version of T5 being supplied with the printed one, I'd love it! Imagine being able to just search for "stateroom" or "gauss rifle" instead of having to hope for a comprehensive index or flip through pages. The Babylon 5 Wars "Ships of the Fleet" books already come with PDF CDs (admittedly these are ship charts intended to be copied for play).

I'd find it rather difficult to accept an RPG published purely in PDF format (my upcoming experience with Traveller's Aide will be something of a field test of this). But, I think that PDF versions make excellent additions to printed rule books.

------------------
Wendell (IMTU tc++ tm !tn t4 !tg !t20 ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt- au ls+ he) - http://www.downport.com/eaglestone/imtuF.html

 

[aramis]

I like PDF versions being available, for a number of reasons.

1) Searchable (usually). Better than an index! (Although I still want to see inices in printables!)

2) I can print out sections (like CG tables) in multiples so as to streamline group play.

3) I don't mind reading at the computer; save a tree or three.

4) I can repair/replace damaged printout copies

5) I can copy paragraphs when commenting in on-line fora.

The best approach I've dealth with is the plainlabel RPG. You get two PDF's; one is landscape, designed for the screen. The other is portrait, and 8.5x11" paper targeted.

I did, however, invest in a comb bindery setup ($60); it really makes the smaller PDF's (150pp or less) into nice, useable books.

Comb binding also is nice for making "GM's Screens" that fold nicely, but there are a few tricks to it: shave half an inch on the outter two panels (of 4) and use 3 combs. Use laminated light card for the base. Lasts nigh on forever, and looks sharp; just don't leave is in the stack!

 

[MT++]

For those of us who do not have access to high volume printers (or a printer at all at the moment), a PDF would be a major PITA

I also prefer the stock of paper used in most publications to one sided print-outs.

If it is PDF, then I imagine that some people will be happy and some RRPO. If it is hard copy, the cost will go up, which will PO the PDF fans.

I might buy T5 if it was a hardcopy (AND proof read). But I would NEVER buy a PDF

 

[cmcknight]

Originally posted by lucasdigital:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RobertFisher:
I love the idea of T5 using the LBB size.

But, I also think it'd be cool if the T5 rules were available in PDF as well as printed. If that were the case, I'd prefer that a copy I print from PDF be as similar to the preprinted copy. So, letter size would be preferable.

Anyway, just a thought...

Count me in Robert.

Unlike some people here you seem to have grasped that we are living in the 21st Century now.

A PDF version would be excellent, it would also allow for negligable production costs.

However nothing beats the real thing so this would be strictly an offshoot. There is also the problem of piracy. Five minutes after MWM sells his first copy of digital media T5 it will be available illegally for free from Usenet binary newsgroups.

Steven King tried to champion the e-format and got completely ripped off in this manner.

</font>[/QUOTE]Other posters have made this point, but I'll chime in as well. As soon as any print publication appears, somebody will scan it and publish it to the web. Thinking that this will not occur is just living in denial.

Copy protection is an effort to hold back the tide because what one person can secure another determined individual can steal. It's a real issue that doesn't have any easy answers.

Having said this, I'd still like some way to legally carry the information on a CD (or set of CDs) or store them on my laptop.

 

[tim_manley]

I have some very interesting points here to make.

First -- I've read MSReader format books on my palm-top and, to be honest, actucally find it easier to read than a book while sitting on the toilet (too much info?)

As for printing up the D&D3E SRD I can tell you from personal experience that 1) I and at least 20 other folks that I know have done that and that 2) each of one of has bought no less than 5 books from WoTC. I know or know of no one that ONLY plays from the Open Source D&D 3E rule-set.

My personal experience with classic traveller is similiar. I joined the game when the only books out were the 3 books. Being high school kids we couldn't afford it; but we had access to our folks offices and photocopy machines. Even though we photocopied all the rules, we ended up bying the books. In fact, I perosonally, have a siginficant number of copies of some of the books that I've bought over time. In this area, I've known many that have photo-copied the rules to play the game but all of the ones that I know either own or have bouth the books.

In fact, some folks were 'turned onto' Traveller by playing or looking at someone's photocopied rule-set.

I also photocopied Champions in order to play the game (early on). Again, photocopies were free for me and I had no money for the books. However, because I was able to play the game I stuck with it and bought not only the books I copied, but others as well.

This is the same argument as the free music thing. I ask all of you: how many of you have bought an album because you hear 1 song on the radio you liked? I know I have most of my album collection that way. Same goes for downloading mp3's. I am far more willing to explore new music, and in fact it seems to be almost the only place to explore new music, by d/l'ing mp3s. And, I've gone and bought the album because of that.

I think that there is really enough evidence, anecdotal or not, to support that having access to free material does not mean you won't buy the original. The issue is the fear of lost revenue; and that fear colors many people's judgements.

or, at least that's what I think

--
Tim

 

[hunter]

Folks,

T5 is being developed by Marc, although at a slow pace. It will eventually make its appearance within the scheme of things, but I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing it anytime within the next couple of years. Three (well four if you count the reprints) versions of Traveller in active print at the same time would hurt sales for everyone involved.

Hunter

 

[DaveShayne]

Originally posted by hunter:
Folks,

T5 is being developed by Marc, although at a slow pace. It will eventually make its appearance within the scheme of things, but I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing it anytime within the next couple of years. Three (well four if you count the reprints) versions of Traveller in active print at the same time would hurt sales for everyone involved.

Hunter

While not entirely unexpected this news is still very depressing.

Please excuse me while I get blind drunk and cry.

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by hunter:
Folks,

T5 is being developed by Marc, although at a slow pace. It will eventually make its appearance within the scheme of things, but I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing it anytime within the next couple of years. Three (well four if you count the reprints) versions of Traveller in active print at the same time would hurt sales for everyone involved.

Hunter

And yet when it was suggested a while back that 5 was unlikely forthis very reason, people said otherwise, oh well. Prudence is a far more admirable qulaity IMO and I'd rather MWM saved his effort for the projects at hand in some ways. I still think (see posst elsewhere) that as a genuinely niche offereing T5 could be done now, but it would almost be a collectors edition purely for die hard fans. If the current GT/CT(reprints)T20 wave turns into a sustainable phenomenon then it might be more plausible.

Otherwsie I suppose we will all have to go back to arguing over which bits of CT/MT/T4/T4.1/T20 ( did I miss anything )we would put in OUR T5....

 

[doomhunk]

Hmm, I imagine that putting anything out for free is going to be limited by the amount of investment put into creating the product that Marc has to make back. In an ideal world he would put out a loss-leader rule book available cheaply/for free to the masses, and once that established itself as the rule system of the masses, he could leverage huge sales of supplements and scenarios and make his money and more that way. But I doubt that a smallish company could afford to do that with its initial product.

I think T20 is the most sensible step financially; I think T5 should be matured over a few years and not rushed out. When there is a new generation of Traveller players ushered in by the T20 system and imminent supplements, then see if there is a big enough market for new rules.

So, PDF? No. Charts, tables, forms, handouts, library data, a few freebie adventures, fine for PDF.

By the way, does anybody else having a gaming group that dissolves into laughter anytime someone says 'PDF file' because it sounds a bit like 'paedeophile'?

Paul

 

[wrandrews]

I like the idea of PDFs. Like TSR's old modules, they can be sold off the web. This would allow me to put my books and CD (I tend to play at a friends, and I have a lot of material to move). Naturally, I expect others to pay for them as well, but it is much easier to pirate PDFs.