PC Death?

[Loki]

Does it happen in your TU? I imagine that the Referee could use it to penalize that one player who is always flying in the face of the odds (“1-in-20,” you say? “I’ll go for it!") to teach them that there are consequences to every action. But, the PC’s are such a part of their soul after creating them and guiding their development that it could sour the faint-of-heart if the Referee were to kill their PC off. No matter that the PC’s owner was being stupid, it could still be a group breaker. So, what to do?

My poorly conceived (read half-baked) idea would be to have that “daring-do” PC be declared seriously injured. Using an auto-doc on one’s vessel will not resolve the injury. The injured party member must be transported to a medical facility at least one (or more) tech levels above that of the planet the near-death injury occurred on. Local medical facilities “might” be able to deal with the injury (throw in a unique disease to exacerbate the situation and take it out of the “broken appendage” category) but it’s another close dice toss. It would increase the odds favorably if the injured party is transported off-planet and taken elsewhere to resolve the issue.

Of course, during the sequence of taking the injured member to the advanced medical facility, the PC’s owner cannot communicate with the other players. His or her lack of participation for the next several hours just might teach the lesson to everyone that risks are a part of life but not to be entered into foolishly without facing possible dire consequences.

How do you deal with the concept of possible PC death in your game?

 

[grendelttroll]

Your idea isn't as "half-baked" as you think.

Traveller games are dangerous. They have always been, no matter WHAT game version you play (as for me, I was worried that, because of the nature of the D20 system, that wouldn't be the case. After reading the T20-lite book, I am no longer worried). This concept was one of the things that really separated Traveller from D&D in the old days.

I don't like killing players myself, but sometimes, especially in Traveller, it's inevitable. In one of my old magazines for MegaTraveller, there were a few medical articles that dealt with what you are trying to implement. They had various methoods, depending upon the Tech Level, how to treat a mortally wounded character. It ranged from cybernetic parts, to transplants via cloning.

Believe me, my players did NOT want cyberparts. They were crude at low tech levels, most societies on planets looked down on them, and by the time the tech rises enough to make cyberparts look "real" (called pseudo-bio's), cloning was availible, and that is what that society performed on you.

Keep in mind, this kind of treatment can be very expensive - which is how you can "stick it to the player!" Yeah, you live, but it's gonna COST ya, a little!

 

[horatio_hex]

I find that death in RPGs is somewhat problematic : without the risk of death the game have no meaning but too much PCs bitting the dust can spell disaster for the game (unless you play a game of "Call of Cthulhu in Space" ).

I guess the auto-doc scheme is good : While the PC is in real danger, there is a chance he might survive the whole thing. And yes, it can give the player some food for thought... or not. It depends if the player likes to roleplay out his PC like he imagined. If so, don't sugarcoat it, or he'll think is invincible : there's a PC in one of our Mage game who thought that because the GM didn't want the character (ANY character) to die...

 

[Maspy]

I liked the Fate Point system from Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. PC's were awarded fate Poits for good roleplaying. They were used to save your life. The mortal blow would be deflected at the last second. Instead of death the PC would be knocked out, left for dead, fall through to the basemment where his is trapped for days... Something that removes him from the fight without being too nice... and not too easy to recover from.
Again, they are earned through good roleplaying. The good roleplayer is less likely to do silly things...

 

[Liam Devlin]

Loki-good post!
Maspy-yes, the GM's should reward good roleplaying somehow. the exact technique varies from Gm to GM.
This is not to say "I'm gonna jump out the airlock!" and think the GM isnae gonnae kill ya cuz ye dinnae have a suit on...Or if ye bark up the wrong tree, ye can wind up in the brig (like some of us on Ursula have done (Baron/ Mike/ Vekstriin).
Of course, IIRC, if a certain PC hadn't had his medkit with him, with the atropine injector, a certain terrorist's sarin gas grenade woulda made short work of him. Still, he wasn't his chipper self for a few days detoxing afterwards..

 

[Hendel]

Good topic Loki,

PC death is a hard one to come to terms with. However I do agree that without that possible fate things can get out of hand quickly. If the pc's learn over time that the Grim Reaper will never visit the game, the game becomes too easy and boring.

Players never like to loose a character, but it IS part of the game. Dying while accomplishing the mission or goal can be part of the role-playing experience. Defending the hatch, delaying the enemy, while the rest of the group escapes/disables the bomb/sends the distress signal etc. can be very exciting and fun. If you get the mind set that you are going to die as a character, many options that you would not have considered before become available. (What the hell!! I am going to die anyway might as well push the little red button!)

Yes this can seem very “Hollywood”, but it does make for some satisfying gaming sessions. (As well as being a hell of a lot of fun to play in and GM!)

As an alternative to fate chips our group uses “GM Option Land”. If a PC. gets blasted, blown up and so forth and they would normally be dead, they go into GM Option Land. The PC may still end up dieing but there is still a chance that they can be saved through some action by the group or plain blind stinkin’ luck.

 

[Loki]

I must admit to reading the KODT cartoon strip for several years and in them I see the personification of so many stereo-type character styles encountered in D&D. Does this carry over to Traveller? They certainly push the envelope with their Spacehack games.

How many rules-lawyers (Brian) do you see at your table? The best of the role-players (Sara) are fun to play with because they really get into character and run with it (always within the rules of course). Bob and Dave are all too often the cannon fodder for Brian's plans and what about poor B.A. the DM? Can you not have sympathy for his trials trying to spin a great game when all oppose his efforts?

Or, how about Lord British in his on-line game of UO when he was assassinated by another player due to a loop-hole in the computer program? The perp was banned from the game for a bit as punishment (so I hear) but I'm sure the DM was mortified. Are there PC-killer in your game? I would think that in the Traveller Universe any player that showed a tendency to be a PC-killers would quickly find themselves banished as well. Regardless of the loophole that allowed the killing to take place, this would quickly destroy the fabric of the game and ruin the enjoyment of the other players. The TU is SOOOO huge there is bound to be many loopholes out there just waiting to trip the unwary GM.

I'm done rambling now.

 

[trader jim]

Very informative posts. Now my two credits worth. To have an exciting Traveller Adventure the GM MUST generate excitment and danger. to be on the cutting edge of danger and excitement, some time a PC got to die, or a NPC, any way every one who has played KNOWS that this will happen sooner or later. Problems arise when it YOUR little guy whos next to get "it". You Must remember its just a piece of paper with some generated numbers on it. You CANNOT get emotionaly involved with a piece of paper!!!...BUT i have seen it happen a lot. Belive it or not. Has any one seen a player get "carried away" when his or hers charecture gets done in???

 

[grendelttroll]

Originally posted by trader jim:
Very informative posts. Now my two credits worth. To have an exciting Traveller Adventure the GM MUST generate excitment and danger. to be on the cutting edge of danger and excitement, some time a PC got to die, or a NPC, any way every one who has played KNOWS that this will happen sooner or later. Problems arise when it YOUR little guy whos next to get "it". You Must remember its just a piece of paper with some generated numbers on it. You CANNOT get emotionaly involved with a piece of paper!!!...BUT i have seen it happen a lot. Belive it or not. Has any one seen a player get "carried away" when his or hers charecture gets done in???

I have had some great Traveller adventures without anyone even coming close to using a weapon.

Yes, violence happens quite frequently, but it shouldn't be the primary theme in a Traveller game or your players' characters will end up very dead -- and your players very pissed off at you.

No matter what, all good players have some ties to their characters, no matter how little. The ones who don't have any at all tend to be apethetic about everything in the game -- which is just as bad a problem for a DM as much as a player who buries himself in his character and has a nervous breakdown if anything happens to it.

Traveller is different from a lot of RPG's in the sense that the weapons in the game are actually designed to hurt or kill you. Other games dilute weapons so badly that players don't get a sense of actual danger a lot of the time.

Yeah, I had a couple of players who got too upset when their Captain Ego got wasted. I also had players who went through a character per session because they didn't care at all. Neither are welcome at my gaming table as they do nothing but disrupt everyone else trying to have a good time -- which is exactly WHAT any game is for.

You can't please everyone all of the time, but if someone is not having fun, you're doing it wrong, no matter how great you think you are in your mind.

 

[trader jim]

hey Troll, why do I get the impression you just chewed me out? I agree with you 100%, i think we or I just didnt say enought to put it more clearly...

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

I've never been of the mind set that PCs shouldn't die unless it's "dramatically appropiate". As a player I hate it when a character of mine dies fair and square only to have the referee tell me my character isn't actually dead but only seriously injured but alive. The moment that players realize that the referee is afraid of killing characters the campaign is ruined because all sense of risk and reward for daring plans goes out the window.

Is it fun to lose a favorite character, especially one you've spent months or even years playing and developing? No, of course not. But the bottom line is that it's just a game and part of this game is that characters sometimes die. The good news is that since it is a game, all you have to do is roll up a new character and get back into the fun. Who knows, maybe your new character will be more fun to play than your previous one. If nothing else, it allows you a chance to try out other character ideas.

 

[grendelttroll]

Originally posted by trader jim:
hey Troll, why do I get the impression you just chewed me out? I agree with you 100%, i think we or I just didnt say enought to put it more clearly...

Sorry, dude. That wasn't my intention. As with I, I follow your statments. I just wanted to display a different angle.

Once again, sincere apologies for giving you the wrong impression.

 

[Jame]

PC death is certainly possible in the game I'm in, but it hasn't happened yet. My Referee hasn't had much combat so far.

 

[sandman]

In our gaming group (which Horatio Hex is also a member), we have some loose rules for DM's:

Don't Kill Players for Fun
(Whoa, that was a cool Demon, Dude, getting your ass whooped like that was awesome!)

Don't Kill them in a cheap way
(Ok, so you're raising your head out of that manhole in that deserted alley, just in time to see an iron bar comming in and crushing your skull. BTW, you're dead)

Don't Kill players as a revenge from Real Life(TM)
(BANG, you're dead. You just had to get the Pizza YOURSELF tonight.)

Leave some (at least one) chances for players to realize theyr stupidity
(So lemme get this straight. You want to Jump from the third story, down to the ground, in front of the incomming car, unsheath your sword, do a back-flip summersault over the car as it's going to crush you, land on the top of the car, plunge your sword right through the roof, through the heart of the driver, drop back from the car as it's going into the wall because the driver's dead. And that's for round One.)


We have some rules for the player too:

Don't do Stoooooooooopid things, unless it's REALLY in character.

Explain what you're doing in terms of the story, not only in terms of statistics.

Guns/Grenade/Fireball/Plasma/etc Hurts. Running toward someone with a machine gun Hurtz a LOT. Botching your Fireball while having 10 success Hurtz a Lot. Expect weeks if not months of recovery. If you repeat it, expect to be killed.

Don't p***-off the GM/Players because of Real Life (TM) grudge.

If you kill/steal from/annoy another players for FUN (ie, Dillema: Save the NPC that's been part of the group for 2 years or the newby PC that arrived last week) then expect that the rest of the group will stay in character and make your life miserable if not impossible.

NB: Repeat offender or to blantantly Munchining from last rule will result in expulsion from the group.

This applies to GM also (yes, we threw out a GM who insisted he was master/ruler of everything and picked rules at his liking. 2h later we had pcs for another game made up.)

We're players (even the GM) We get together to play and have fun. Not to Munchkin around or be told we're not experienced enough to help out with rules interpretation (average RPG exp in our group is +- 15y)


Those are the simple rules we have. Playing with them has made many character memorable, even if they're dead. They didn't die Cheaply. They either got out in a blaze of glory or saved many bystanders while doing so. Hell, even some players are starting Family Lines when we changes eras, playing their old pc's grand-grand daddy.

 

[horatio_hex]

Originally posted by Sandman:

(So lemme get this straight. You want to Jump from the third story, down to the ground, in front of the incomming car, unsheath your sword, do a back-flip summersault over the car as it's going to crush you, land on the top of the car, plunge your sword right through the roof, through the heart of the driver, drop back from the car as it's going into the wall because the driver's dead. And that's for round One.)

Hey, Sandman, I guess we're lucky Grizz is not a member here !

On a more serious note, the death rate in RPGs is also a matter of genre. Games like D&D, pulp-inspired settings and other settings were heroes are supposed to fly in the face in danger are, in my opinion, supposed to make the PCs more resistant to danger.

 

[grendelttroll]

Originally posted by Sandman:
In our gaming group (which Horatio Hex is also a member), we have some loose rules for DM's:

Rest of message snipped for sanity

Great rules! Most of the good GM's have those kind of rules running.

You forgot the most important rule, however:

When you meet an opponent wearing TL15 battle dress, weilding a FGMP-14, and all you have is a body pistol, it isn't the wisest thing in the universe to heckle his mother.

Hope this helps.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Grendel T. Troll:
[QBYou forgot the most important rule, however:

When you meet an opponent wearing TL15 battle dress, weilding a FGMP-14, and all you have is a body pistol, it isn't the wisest thing in the universe to heckle his mother.
[/QB]

That would be akind to wrestling an enraged Kodiak bear without even the benifit of clothes

 

[Rover]

I must admit I am guilty of getting too attached to my characters. I clearly remember throwing a full-blown fit when my cherished 7th level cleric, whom I played for over a year died. Not from anything dungeon related, it was from an inter-party squabble caused by two players who only showed up for a few sessions.

Granted, this was over 20 yeas ago, and I was only 15, but I still leaned a lesson. Don't get too attached to the character. Today my problem is that I don't always heed that lesson.

As a player, I think for an RPG to be entertaining there has to be some emotional investment in the character. If I didn't care about the characters I would play a strategy game or plain old chess.

I also think there has to be some element of risk, otherwise the character's achievements are pointless and unrewarding.

For a GM (which I do on occasion, but I usually play) the real challenge is to present an interactive story that the players find both challenging and rewarding.

When I GM I tell the players that if their characters do anything stupid they'll pay the price. But, if in the middle of a combat it looks like the characters are going to buy it, I'll fudge the situation. I know it's hard to balance sometimes.

The ref in my usual game has no qualms about killing PC's, and won't fudge a situation in a PC's favor if things head south. This too, can get to be a drag real quick. It can lead to an unexciting game where the PC's are afraid to leave their house.

It's hard to strike a balance, but I think that GM's should adapt the situation so that PC's don't die all the time. The other side of the coin is that things should get beefed up if life is too easy for the PC's.

Should a PC die? I say hell yes! But only rarely, and only if the pc's do something really dumb, or if the situation really calls for it.

Rover

PS. While we're on the subject of doing stupid things. A player in an AD&D game a long time ago got really upset at the other players and the GM after his character lit a wagon of oil on fire and rode it passed a falling portcullis towards a horde of angry orcs. He seemed to think we should have followed him into battle and not beat a hasty retreat.

Edited for Spelling and Grammar.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

as i usually play in a small group , i let players have two characters each . if one dies , which would be due to stupidity , desparation or extreme bad luck , the player has a shock , realises the value of his remaining character , but is still in the game . incidentally , i find that having two ( no more ) characters helps players to role play , as they must be different from each other . this avoids " my character is me " syndrome .
hey , i think there may be a thread in that ...

 

[vegascat]

PC death has it's place in the game. There are several generic types;
The heroic death - Blasting the power regulator of the fusion poewr plant on the 10Mton battle ship about to bomb your home planet.
The stupid death - Firing a hand held missile into a gas tanker from a range of 10 feet while standing in a ditch.
The meaningful death - The evil count executed the PC baron to keep him from reporting the nasty plans for taking over the sector, generating the nest half year worth of play.
The overconfident death - He is so good, he can take out that marine in BD with the FGMP-15, using a body pistol.
The random death - Taking on a TL 8 battalion ahile wearing TL 12 combat armor using a laser rifle. If he stands up in front of enough bullets, he will die.

The worst thing a DM can do is allow a character to survive a truly brain dead stunt. He looses credibility.