Passengers, Freight, Cargo

[Hal]

I feel stupid for asking this, but...

Aside from the table that details how to generate how many passengers, tons of freight, tons of cargo etc - where are the rules specific to this economic activity?

For instance, I'm looking to clarify finding passengers/freight/cargo for the ship as it prepares to take off for its next destination. Per Page 490, it seems that I would follow the procedure as below:

Once for ALL passengers:

Roll 2d6-7+Pop (which in this example = 7) plus Steward skill (let's assume that the skill is 2). Rolling a 3 (darn it!), the steward finds a total of 3-7+7+2 or 5 High Passengers. Rolling a 6, our Captain with admin of 2, can find a total of 8 potential middle passage customers.

Then we come to Freight. Per page 490, the quote of "FREIGHT
Roll once for each type each day until the ship has enough freight and cargo."

How many "types" of freight are there? If we have someone with Liason of 3, and the roll is one of Flux + Pop x (TC+1) where the world is a Hi In (for example), would we roll on day one of looking for freight a roll of a (7(2d6) - 7 (flux) +7 (pop) x 3) plus 3 for a total of 21+3 or 24 dtons of freight that day?

Or are we supposed to do something different?

What about those worlds that don't have any trade classification? Does this mean in the example above, that the world only had 10 dtons of freight available for that day?

I'm hoping I'm missing something here, because this is going to be THE first thing that gets tested by the players who want to run a free trader!

 

[Original_Carl]

Aside from the table that details how to generate how many passengers, tons of freight, tons of cargo etc - where are the rules specific to this economic activity?

Check out pages 48 through 53 (the Benchmarks section).

Then we come to Freight. Per page 490, the quote of "FREIGHT
Roll once for each type each day until the ship has enough freight and cargo."

How many "types" of freight are there?

One.

"Freight" is basically a shipping container full of something that you're being paid to haul somewhere. It's a delivery job, and the rates for freight (or bulk freight, as I like to call it) are just above break-even, but there's almost no financial risk since you're not putting up your own capital.

"Cargo" is when you buy goods to sell elsewhere. You're assuming the full financial risk. You can make a lot of money on cargo, but the risk is a lot higher.

"Passengers" are very similar to freight. You're paid a fixed amount to haul someone somewhere. Obviously, high passage passengers are the most profitable, but your costs to accommodate them are higher (nicer staterooms, stewards, etc.).

You will roll once for Freight, Cargo, and Passengers each day hence, "Roll once for each type each day until the ship has enough freight and cargo," and passengers, of course.

What about those worlds that don't have any trade classification? Does this mean in the example above, that the world only had 10 dtons of freight available for that day?

If a world has no trade classification, I would modify the freight formula to:

 Freight (in tons) = (Flux + Pop) x 1 + Liaison

I'm hoping I'm missing something here, because this is going to be THE first thing that gets tested by the players who want to run a free trader!

You're not missing much, Hal. You and I appear to have very similar players. The first thing mine do is scour the sector maps for anything resembling a golden pair and then set about making their first MCr. After that they start building "Planet Express" fleets. Most of the adventure takes place with them trying to get enough money together to get to the golden pair.

I've been promising myself to write a Passengers and Trade app to make this process a simple click. Maybe I should get on that.

The criticism I've heard about the T5 trade rules on this forum is that "cargo" is basically freight with a purchase and sale flux roll modified by player skills (Broker and Trader). I'm going to need to spend more time with the system before I level my own criticisms. I will say that this simple system is consistent with the principles of the game as I understand them. T5 is envisioned as a space adventure game. To me, that means laser blasts, bumpy-headed aliens, sleazy starport bars, and zero-G pirates. There's supposed to be a "hard" sci-fi focus with a few conceits (jump drive, the Ancients, etc.) and while some speculative trade is intended as part of play, it's not intended as the only type of play.

With that said, the trade system does work. It's just not going to be as complex as say, EVE Online or even Gazillionaire.

Personally, I'm going to start with a spreadsheet that generates Passengers, Freight and Cargo for a UPP, Trade Codes and player skill. Then, I'll build a spreadsheet that handles the sale of Cargo using UPP, Trade Codes and player skill. Once I've worked with that with actual players, I'll have a good idea of how to introduce more depth to the system. Once I have the spreadsheets working, I'll consider a Windows app.

 

[Major B]

Personally, I'm going to start with a spreadsheet that generates Passengers, Freight and Cargo for a UPP, Trade Codes and player skill. Then, I'll build a spreadsheet that handles the sale of Cargo using UPP, Trade Codes and player skill. Once I've worked with that with actual players, I'll have a good idea of how to introduce more depth to the system. Once I have the spreadsheets working, I'll consider a Windows app.

I would be interested in seeing that spreadsheet when you make it. Will you post it in the file library?

 

[Original_Carl]

Will you post it in the file library?

I will.

 

[Hal]

Hi Original_Carl,
The primary reason I made the reference to "once" for determining passengers, is because it specifies that on page 490 as:

"PASSENGERS
Roll once for each type on the day
the ship leaves port."

Now, in re-reading the bit on freight and cargo, I see where the reference to "each type" might refer to both Cargo as one roll, and Freight as another roll - both using the same formula.

As for reading pages 48 through 53 - I'm hoping that you don't mean those disjointed comments regarding various things such as Cost of things, noble land grants, cost of living, etc.

In any event, I don't think the pages you referenced actually explain the process outlined on page 490. It is one thing to have a checklist, which is really a glorifed outline. It is another to have an actual set of paragraphs that explain or flesh out the actual outline from start to finish.

Just as Merchant Prince had a chapter devoted to the rules, or a section of a chapter to be more precise, it looks as though that kind of explanation is absent from T5. I'm hoping that those rules are expected to come out in a further book published some time into the future.

 

[rancke]

In the CT rules there are three types of freight: Major, minor, and incidental. The difference is the size of each lot. See if that's still the case in T5.


Hans

 

[aramis]

In the CT rules there are three types of freight: Major, minor, and incidental. The difference is the size of each lot. See if that's still the case in T5.


Hans

No.

Freight = (Flux + Pop) x (total TCs +1)
Mod= +Liaison
Use total TCs from this list (only):
Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo
Na Ni Po Ri Va Wa​

 

[SpaceBadger]

"PASSENGERS
Roll once for each type on the day
the ship leaves port."

Dunno bout Cargo and Freight as I don't have the book, but as for Passengers, prior versions of Traveller have three types: High, Middle, and Low, so I suspect that is the meaning of the quoted text.

 

[Hal]

Dunno bout Cargo and Freight as I don't have the book, but as for Passengers, prior versions of Traveller have three types: High, Middle, and Low, so I suspect that is the meaning of the quoted text.

That is correct - each type being High, Middle, and Low. Fun thing is - those instructions are rather straight-forward.

What is perhaps odd in all of this however, is that the freight/cargo rolls are daily, while the passenger(s) isn't. You only get to roll for passengers just before the actual lift off. The GM, could if he wanted to, roll in advance, and then role-play those passengers who request the rights to board via the purchase of tickets. The hard part however, is the accumulation of cargo/freight.

Case in point:

CT would have you roll based not only upon the source world's information, but also the destination world's destination. So, a hypothetical Pop 7 world, with passengers desiring transit to a Pop 6 world, would work out like this (Assuming that both worlds had the same tech level that is!):

High: 3d6-2d6. No modifiers for destination pop nor amber ratings. Average result would be a total of 3 (average roll for 3d6 is 10, while average roll for 2d6 is 7. 10-7 = 3).

Middle: 3d-1d (with average roll being 10 for 3d6, and 3.5 for 1d6, let's call it 6 after rounding up on the 1d6). Total: 6

Low Passengers: 3d6 (for an average of 10) Total: 10 Low

Now, lets look at the typical fright values...

1d+3 major. Average roll will be 6.5, call it 7 major lots.
1d6+4 Minor. Average roll will be 7.5, call it 8 minor lots.
1d6-3 Incidental. Average roll will be 3.5, so call it 1 incidental lot.

Net totals (using again the mythical 3.5 figure for 1d6 rolls) we get 7 x 3.5 x 10 or 245 tons total for the Major lots. 8 x 3.5 x 5 or 140 tons minor lots. Incidental is 1d6 x 1 tons, or 3.5, rounded to 4.

Net total tons available for that ship would be a whopping 389 tons. I'm going on the vague recollection that it is roughly 5 days time on the ground, 1 day's time coming into port, and 1 day's time leaving port for roughly 2 week intervals per jump (plus the 1 week in jump-space).

Contrast this with T5's methodology.

A world with a Pop 7 rating, with say, two trade classifications, would be rolling at flux (aka 2d6-7+7, or an average roll of 7 after mods cancel each other out). On average, 7 x (TC +1) is 21 tons of freight available that day. For five days, that would out to 105 tons of freight

On a world where you don't have ANY TC's pertinent to the world in question, the rate of freight accumulation, on average, will be roughly 7 tons per day.

Granted, in the spinward marches, there are maybe 2 worlds with zero Trade classifications, and the bulk of the worlds seem to be between 2 and 3 or so - that still makes it somewhat harder for a ship to make a go of it at just taking freight. Now, if a captain purchases cargo and takes freight, he's looking at something like double the numbers I've mentioned earlier on my reading of the T5 rules. But he has to pay for that priveledge.

So, all said and done - I'm thinking that I'm missing something here. I have to be!

 

[Hal]

No.

Freight = (Flux + Pop) x (total TCs +1)
Mod= +Liaison
Use total TCs from this list (only):
Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo
Na Ni Po Ri Va Wa​

What's your take on the Mod part? Does this get added AFTER the multiplication, or do you think it gets added before the multiplication?

My take on the Mods are that they modify the die roll itself. That being the case, the only die roll is the flux roll.

On the other hand, one could argue that it gets added on after the die roll and after the multiplication from the Total TC's.

 

[aramis]

What's your take on the Mod part? Does this get added AFTER the multiplication, or do you think it gets added before the multiplication?

My take on the Mods are that they modify the die roll itself. That being the case, the only die roll is the flux roll.

On the other hand, one could argue that it gets added on after the die roll and after the multiplication from the Total TC's.

As written, it looks to be after; were I to use it, it would be added to the flux.

 

[rancke]

No.

Freight = (Flux + Pop) x (total TCs +1)
Mod= +Liaison
Use total TCs from this list (only):
Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo
Na Ni Po Ri Va Wa​

Then my guess is that the text has been cut and pasted from an earlier version without being corrected for the new rules.


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

Hi Original_Carl

Good morning, Hal.

I'm hoping that you don't mean those disjointed comments regarding various things such as Cost of things, noble land grants, cost of living, etc.

I did, and I'm now sorry for that. There are cost variance tables in there, which could help add some depth to the process and I felt the text would help you understand the reasons behind the trade system as it is. Maybe it would give you some context for what you were reading on 490. I can see now that all they do is add more irrelevant information to an inadequately-explained system.

In any event, I don't think the pages you referenced actually explain the process outlined on page 490. It is one thing to have a checklist, which is really a glorifed outline. It is another to have an actual set of paragraphs that explain or flesh out the actual outline from start to finish.

All true, I'm sorry to say.

Here's the process, as I now understand it, to be rolled once each day in port.

1. Roll for available passengers (Hi, Mid & Low)
2. Roll for available freight.
3. 100 tons of Cargo, priced as per the formula, and identified as

TL - TC1 TC2 TC3 TC4 TC5 Cost

What that cargo is does not matter. What matters are the TL, the trade codes and cost, and that you can only load 100 tons of it per day.

It's not a complex system. I keep thinking there's going to be more to it, but there just isn't.

I'm still working on the spreadsheet. This is going to be a bit of a stretch for me. Doing the cargo calculation on paper is pretty easy (now!) but getting Excel to do it is going to be harder.

 

[pendragonman]

Good morning, Hal.

Creepy 2001: A Space Odyssey flashback...


Daaaaaisy, Daisy....

 

[Original_Carl]

Creepy 2001: A Space Odyssey flashback...

I love replying to Hal's posts and I LOVE 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have two Monolith action figures from ThinkGeek in my office (they don't make them any more).

 

[david.wendelken]

There is a decent spreadsheet available on another thread. It's the older traveler rules but it should give you a good start.

I updated it awhile back to fix a few bugs, so you can find it by searching thru the list of my posts. I'm heading to bed, so I'm not going to look it up for you.

 

[Hal]

All true, I'm sorry to say.

Here's the process, as I now understand it, to be rolled once each day in port.

1. Roll for available passengers (Hi, Mid & Low)
2. Roll for available freight.
3. 100 tons of Cargo, priced as per the formula, and identified as

TL - TC1 TC2 TC3 TC4 TC5 Cost

What that cargo is does not matter. What matters are the TL, the trade codes and cost, and that you can only load 100 tons of it per day.

It's not a complex system. I keep thinking there's going to be more to it, but there just isn't.

I'm still working on the spreadsheet. This is going to be a bit of a stretch for me. Doing the cargo calculation on paper is pretty easy (now!) but getting Excel to do it is going to be harder.

Hi Carl,
You may want to reread what is on page 490. It states quite explicitly - you roll only ONCE, and that is on the last day before jumping. I'm cutting and pasting the part that is specific regarding passengers...

"PASSENGERS
Roll once for each type on the day the ship leaves port."

That is a direct "cut and paste" rather than my typing it. The only "day by day" aspect as listed on page 490, is the determination of cargoes and/or Freight lots that are available. Assuming you can roll well enough, the cap on cargoes listed is equal to 100 dtons daily.

So, let's assume you're on a world that is a population 7 world, with three trade classifications. Let's further assume, that you roll a 5 for the flux roll result. With a pop 7 world, this works out to 7+5 or 12. Times (3 TC's +1) or 4, that works out to 48 dtons of freight that day. If purser has Liason 4, that will be a final 52 tons of freight for that roll.

Now, had this been a flux 0 roll (most likely result), the total average fright available per day is 0+7 x (3+1) or 28 base, plus the +4 for liason, for a total of 32 dtons of freight. Contrast this with 1d6+3 (or on average, 6) major lots, 1d6+4 (or on average, 7) minor lots, and 1d6-3 incidental lots (on average, 0). So, in 5 days - that same world in CT would have generated (on average)

6d6 x 10 dtons of freight (or roughly 200 dtons)
7d6 x 5 dtons of freight (or roughly about 23 x 5 or roughly 115 dtons
0 x 1 dtons for incidentals. Total works out to about 315 dtons.

5 x 32 = 160 dtons of freight using the new way versus 315 the old way.

It gets better. Delivery of cargo is contracted at 4 days. A sped up delivery plan costs a given percentage of the cargo's worth, just to expedite the shipment. One would presume that freight being shipped might not necessarily be right there at the ship's loading bay, and might take as long to send to the ship as cargo.

This is "inferred" by the way, in the absence of any rules generated in the Book (ie delivery times for freight).

 

[Hal]

Creepy 2001: A Space Odyssey flashback...


Daaaaaisy, Daisy....

If it would freak you out further???

Like Hal in the movie, I too lip read. Granted, it is because I was born hard of hearing, but I can lip read. As for the Hal references? I've learned to intone "I can't do that Dave" as best as I can just to get people to give me a knowing look. What was even better, was when I used to work with a guy named Dave who was a Sci-Fi fan.

 

[pendragonman]

If it would freak you out further???

Like Hal in the movie, I too lip read. Granted, it is because I was born hard of hearing, but I can lip read. As for the Hal references? I've learned to intone "I can't do that Dave" as best as I can just to get people to give me a knowing look. What was even better, was when I used to work with a guy named Dave who was a Sci-Fi fan.

Nice.


Basically, passengers are rolled only on the day of departure due to no real ticketing mechanism in advance. Those services are for scheduled liners. Player character boats rarely have a strict schedule, and so must make do with those traveling at the last minute.

Just my 2 CR though.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Basically, passengers are rolled only on the day of departure due to no real ticketing mechanism in advance. Those services are for scheduled liners. Player character boats rarely have a strict schedule, and so must make do with those traveling at the last minute.

Just my 2 CR though.

I agree with your interpretation of the rules, but my .02Cr is that this is another example of the rules trampling on the referee. Sure, something like that as a guideline, but it should be clear that the ref is free to disregard where common sense or the scenario require.

Frex, a PC tramp freighter that is the only ship to call at a backwater port within the past six months or more is going to have its pick of anyone who wants to travel off planet without waiting another six months, and those passengers are going to be clamoring to sign up as soon as they can to secure passage, not taking a chance by waiting for the day of departure.

Further examples are left as an exercise for the reader.

Yeah, I know, Rule Zero... but hard rules tend to encourage rules lawyer players to tell the ref, "It doesn't work like that."