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Other uses for cold berth tech

CosmicGamer

SOC-14 1K
I was thinking about the different ways this technology might be used and some of the issues that could come from it.

Just some points for discussion and possible sparks of ideas for use in games.

Are there millions or billions of people frozen waiting for cures to the ailments that science has not found yet?

Can a criminal serve their sentence out while frozen?

If a world has mandatory military service from age 18 to 22 could someone get frozen just before turning 18 and thawed out 4 years later to avoid service?

Do you subtract out time frozen when calculating someones age?

Will people choose to be frozen for reasons like
- waking up with a larger stock portfolio
- waiting for their older sibling to die so they can take over the family business, noble title, or whatever
- Athletes frozen in the off season so they don't grow older. Maybe teams even require it so that players can't get injured or have other issues in the off season.

What are the rights of someone frozen. If they request not to be thawed until some date or circumstances are met, can they still be thawed? What if someone is suing them or they are subpenaed for a court appearance? What if a creditor want's them thawed so that they work and pay off debt?

Instead of protecting a witness after a trial by giving them a new identity and relocating them, they could be frozen until the criminal organization or whatever threat is dealt with.


What other ideas do you have?
 
Some great questions here.


Are there millions or billions of people frozen waiting for cures to the ailments that science has not found yet?

Probably not billions. Those who can afford to keep themselves on ice for long enough for medicine to invent a cure surely have enough wealth to avail of an alternate procedure like cloning, brain transplant, or gene therapy.


Can a criminal serve their sentence out while frozen?

It depends on the ethos of the penal system. Is it there to punish, to reform or simply remove a criminal from society. If its the latter then freezing is a humane option compared to execution.

If a world has mandatory military service from age 18 to 22 could someone get frozen just before turning 18 and thawed out 4 years later to avoid service?
No. If you are liable to serve, you'll have to provide that service at some point. If you come out of a cold berth as a physically 18 year old person then you should go straight to bootcamp. If you avoid mandatory service in whatever way and are not physically or otherwise fit to serve when you thaw then you'll have to serve the equivalent of your military service through a prison sentence, fine or other form of restitution.

Do you subtract out time frozen when calculating someones age?
I'm not sure what the various rules sets say, usually aging stops, but I'd say in society someone would have an "apparent age" or physical age and a "calendar age". There'd be a similar treatment for anagathic users.

Will people choose to be frozen for reasons like
- waking up with a larger stock portfolio
- waiting for their older sibling to die so they can take over the family business, noble title, or whatever
- Athletes frozen in the off season so they don't grow older. Maybe teams even require it so that players can't get injured or have other issues in the off season.
I think we need a lawyer for these. The question here is: Is the frozen person considered to be living? If they are in "suspended animation" are their rights to benefit from things happening in the real world suspended? For stock and financials there are work arounds, put everything in a "Cold Trust" that administers everything until you thaw.

For inheritance and succession I can see the desirability for Imperial law to take frozen persons out of eligibility. Possibly it could be handled as if the frozen person was a minor or incapable, with a guardian or trustee appointed.


What are the rights of someone frozen. If they request not to be thawed until some date or circumstances are met, can they still be thawed? What if someone is suing them or they are subpenaed for a court appearance? What if a creditor want's them thawed so that they work and pay off debt?
Again Lawyer and expert on Imperial Law needed, but that last one is interesting. Slavery is illegal in the Imperium but what if your only asset is your frozen body and organs?

Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon is a great book that uses frozen bodies to sleeve recorded personalities to allow people to travel over interstellar distances.

The personality is recorded on a cortical stack (retrieved after death) and sent via the intergalactic internet to a receiving facility where it is put into the body of someone who has been frozen as punishment for a crime.

In Traveller terms personality recording is possible on the living. Transport can be via courier. The personality copy can be overlaid on someone in a cold berth.

I also remember a novel about a colony where only a portion of the colonist were revived from their cold berths at a time. This allowed the colony to build up resources to support its full population in a controlled manner and avoided genetic stagnation by mixing up the population. It was also an excape for colonists who got fed up with the current awake population and wanted different people in their social circle.
 
It depends on the ethos of the penal system. Is it there to punish, to reform or simply remove a criminal from society. If its the latter then freezing is a humane option compared to execution.

Hmm, keeping someone on ice for say, 100 years, and then tossing them out into a totally changed society could be quite nasty. Sure that is humane compared to execution?
 
The Statute of Limitations on laws could be impacted, too. If the character commits a crime that has a 2 year Statute of Limitations, then spends 2 years in a Cold Berth, did they just bypass the law? Would it be no different than hiding out for that long?
 
What if a creditor want's them thawed so that they work and pay off debt?
Slavery is illegal in the Imperium but what if your only asset is your frozen body and organs?
No, I didn't mean anything like that. Just that if someone is frozen and not earning wages to pay off debts maybe a creditor can get a court order to wake someone...

On some worlds maybe you have to have "all your affairs in order" before being frozen. Power of attorney, finances, family matters like child support and so on.

Regarding family matters one could be leaving a spouse and kids. Would it be like a deadbeat dad, could the spouse go after the "Cold Trust"? Are they still considered to be married, can they divorce someone that's frozen? Does a spouse have any say can they prevent an extended cold sleep?
 
All and none of the above. All these legal questions would be subject to planetary laws. If you can think of it, somewhere out there is a planet where it's good legal law. And another planet where the very idea is arrant nonsense, contrary to Natural Law and an offense to all right-thinking men.


Hans
 
The Statute of Limitations on laws could be impacted, too. If the character commits a crime that has a 2 year Statute of Limitations, then spends 2 years in a Cold Berth, did they just bypass the law? Would it be no different than hiding out for that long?

I'd expect that, like in many US jurisdictions, there would be special clauses covering this.

For example, http://www.utcourts.gov/howto/statute_limitation/ gives the following:
When Does the Clock Start Ticking?

Deciding on the right time limit can be difficult and can be complicated by deciding when the clock begins to run. In some cases, it starts from the date of harm. In other cases, it starts from the date the harm was discovered or should have been discovered, or not until a minor reaches age 18. There are other triggers as well. It is important to know when to start counting time.


Sometimes the Clock Stops

There are also things that can "toll" or suspend the running of the time limit. Look for tolling circumstances in the Utah Code and in the decisions of the Utah Court of Appeals and Utah Supreme court that interpret the Utah Code.

In this specific case, something like this would likely apply:
76-1-304. Defendant out of state -- Plea held invalid -- New prosecutions.

(1) The period of limitation does not run against any defendant during any period of time in which the defendant is out of the state following the commission of an offense.

The "clock" doesn't run during any time the defendant was not subject to the jurisdiction of the charging court.
 
I'm reading "Revelation Space" by Alastair Reynolds. So far, he has had people frozen for years long journeys by 'lighthuggers', almost-as-fast-as-light ships. The captain of one is dying from a pernicious virus, so they keep him frozen to try to find a cure, but can thaw parts of his brain to talk to him. This reminded me of the movie "Dark Star".

He also has people deathly afraid of disease, called hermetics, who keep themselves in sealed environmental palanquins, and interact with others via cameras and electronic links. Not exactly frozen, but if we combine this with the almost frozen brain above, well, how weird is that? Imagine one of these as a patron or adversary.

One of the hermetics keeps the loved one of someone on ice, to use as leverage in negotiation. The hermetic also keeps an assassin on ice, to be moved discreetly and thawed when needed.

Another person kills someone, puts the corpse in a low berth, and rigs it to fail, making the death look like an accident. The results are so icky and obvious, no one questions the story.

I can imagine a fugitive putting himself away until things "cool off". Of course, he may wake up to a warm reception. Sorry, temperature puns. :p
 
Hmm, keeping someone on ice for say, 100 years, and then tossing them out into a totally changed society could be quite nasty. Sure that is humane compared to execution?

Well permanent death versus extreme sociological displacement, some minds, perhaps especially the criminal mind might adjust. There's an interesting take on this in the graphic novel series Transmetropolitan which covers the fate of "Revivals" who are thawed cured and then left to fend for themselves, ignored by society.

All and none of the above. All these legal questions would be subject to planetary laws. If you can think of it, somewhere out there is a planet where it's good legal law. And another planet where the very idea is arrant nonsense, contrary to Natural Law and an offense to all right-thinking men.

Is or should cold berth technology and the general principles of its use be something that's subject to Imperial law or at least regulation? I don't know of any canon reference to the Imperium regulating cold berths but it does regulate interstellar travel, setting standards for passage types and cold berths are one type. Does any Traveller ruleset require a medic aboard a ship carrying passengers in cold sleep? Of course you're right that on a planet local law would apply, but is there any Imperial legal, ethical or technical standard that might set a general standard in the Imperium?

No, I didn't mean anything like that. Just that if someone is frozen and not earning wages to pay off debts maybe a creditor can get a court order to wake someone...

On some worlds maybe you have to have "all your affairs in order" before being frozen. Power of attorney, finances, family matters like child support and so on.

Regarding family matters one could be leaving a spouse and kids. Would it be like a deadbeat dad, could the spouse go after the "Cold Trust"? Are they still considered to be married, can they divorce someone that's frozen? Does a spouse have any say can they prevent an extended cold sleep?

The image that came to mind was the creditor "taking possession" of the debtors, cold berth and all :smirk:

The fact that you can book passage aboard any grotty little merchant that has a functioning cold berth might indicate that having all your affairs in order is not required.

Bottom line. Stuff happens while you're a popsicle.
 
On the darker side of cold berth technology, one could kidnap someone, drop them into a cold berth masquerading as "heavy equipment" and ship them off to another system for later ransom and release, or maybe a bounty...
 
On the darker side of cold berth technology, one could kidnap someone, drop them into a cold berth masquerading as "heavy equipment" and ship them off to another system for later ransom and release, or maybe a bounty...

Someone wrote a couple of ATU stories involving a slaveship of kidnap victims... and an accident resulting in their waking prematurely. Disturbing, but pretty well written.
 
Sifu stops by...

I was thinking about the different ways this technology might be used and some of the issues that could come from it. What other ideas do you have?

it just so happens that i have been waxing poetic on this subject. have a seat, friends...

FROM novel TALES OF A MAD SCIENTIST
FROM story WITHOUT A DOUBT, EPISODE END OF THE LINE



(2222)
I am bored. Bored. BORED! Who knew that early retirement could be so tough?

I have come full circle. From those first days when I checked cold cells for adequate maintenance, it was quite a shock to suddenly find myself commissioned and on a charter for some mystery patron. Boredom followed, many long watches checking instruments and keeping logbooks, ensuring our frozen travelers remained secure and only half-dead.

As junior officer, I was stuck with what the Navy calls 'delta' shift. Third watch, 2000 to 0600, middle of the night. That actually turned out to be a good thing, for when that explosion warped the bulkhead partition and depressurized our compartment, I was the only one prepared.

I don't know how long it took me to maneuver those chilly canisters from the meat locker into a nearby damaged lifeboat. I lost track of how many times I was smashed against the partition walls by them while working in zero gravity and a rapidly dissipating atmosphere. I don't remember how many times I was shocked while trying to force seldom used relays to respond to new external signals.

I released the lifeboat and made sure the autopilot was engaged. I have no experience whatsoever with flying, and now is not the time to start. After that, all I could do was force myself to stay awake and keep a watch on my frozen charges.

There would be no help from the emergency medical kits all lifeboats were supposed to have, since this boat had nothing. Occasionally at first, then more frequently, I would give myself the only stimulant available, a feed of pressurized pure oxygen to help stay alert.

I watched with decreasing attention as my lifeboat searched for and traveled to a nearby world. I could feel it descend into atmosphere and make gentle 'S' curves as it dissipated energy and velocity. Finally I fell asleep, after forty-one hours, just a few minutes before landing. A hard thump woke me up to see a smooth rollout and rapidly approaching emergency equipment.

"Local boy makes good" was a headline in my Idaho hometown. On the newsnet I received my 'fifteen minutes of fame' when I received a commendation and a surprise promotion. Commissioned and promoted in the same cruise? Fast track on the road to Captain's stripes!

Too bad everything fell apart after that investigation. As interviews and examinations continued, layers of neglect and poor maintenance were revealed. It appeared that my cold cells were the only item up to a maintenance standard.

On the 'slow motion' interstellar stock exchange, Premier Lines stock took a tumble. Bad public news, whispered word of mouth and secretive whistleblowers fed off each other to present a picture of indifference at best, fraud at worst. There was an assumption by the public that anyone associated with soon to be bankrupt Premier was a 'problem child' and deserved no second chances.

Despite all my good karma, no other Merchant House wanted to hire me. Rather than investigate on their own, they believed the press and refused. What can I do now?

I thought that my experience would come in handy in a medical field. After all, there are people who are placed in cold cells for many reasons, anything from surgical prep to prison sentences, even collateral for loans.

Still there were no job offers. Every time people found out about my association with Premier, doors were suddenly shut in my face. Are you kidding me?

I did have one option, one that might not involve Premier. I had a voucher, fortunately in an escrow account, that allowed me to go to school for two years, all expenses paid. Perhaps if I go 'under the radar' for a while, things will quiet down and I can get on with my life!

It was difficult, but I did it. I never did like or do so well in school, but this was a little different. This was a matter of survival. I took an extensive course in poisons and antidotes, thinking I might be able to get work in an emergency room or a poison control center.

Silly notion. Perhaps someone was watching, waiting for me to surface again. That must be it, for I encountered more closed doors. How is this possible?

As a last resort, I made a clumsy introduction to a local member of the Yo-Kuska and became a rent-a-medic, able to patch up others who didn't want a public record of their wounds. There were times that I had to stay hidden in one of their 'safe houses' and patch up victims of violence for days on end. What a career choice, for me and them!

Pirates do not care about the quality of their entertainment. I was forced to bring along my own reading material if I wanted to avoid being bored to death. I made extensive searches of available online archives, eventually carrying around a stack of datacards to be scanned while cooling my heels at some isolated location.

Despite my attempts to avoid the subject, cold cells continued to come to the top of my action list. Eventually I had an extensive collection of reference and research works on the subject. One that really piqued my interest was an obscure analysis of Y.A.R. hibernation enhancement.

One wonders about how the Y.A.R. could form an interstellar empire. With their unknown form of FTL travel, they had to spend many weeks in stasis. Being reptiles, they naturally had the ability to hibernate. This was enhanced by an extract of the hormone that allowed their trance to be used at anytime.

I remember when the idea came into my head. I had forgotten my hand reader and cards this last time, and all I had available on a spare memory stick was that obscure research paper. I read it over and over again on a cracked monitor, out of sheer boredom. Then it came to me -- how about doing the same thing here?

There is a planet, in the Ainuu Pack Zone, where a life form exists that is very similar to the Terran skunk. Instead of a noxious spray, this one was odorless -- and induced fear. This gives the creature time to escape. So it occurred to me that I could use something to induce sleep. Delta rythym boosters keep you asleep, not put you to sleep.

Next, I thought about those ultra-low temperatures. I had fragmentary reports, from the Terran pre-spaceflight era, about people who were inadventently lost under icy waters. When rescued, they were gradually warmed, given oxygen and breathing assistance, Many of them survived, some with no after effects at all. Amazing!

Those of you who have experience with cold cells are aware that it is not a very pleasant way to travel. Especially dealing with that silicone gel that gets everywhere. If I did not subject passengers to ultra-low temperatures, there would be no need for the temperature conducting gel or pre freezing drug ingestion to prevent cell damage.

I made lots of notes, but did not think I would do anything with them without access to a research lab. Surprise! I got a chance to test my theories, just a few days later. Instead of a safe house, I had to travel outsystem, to another unknown location. Some unknown pirate mission was a success, with them obtaining whatever cargo or ships they were after, though casualties were horrendous.

Laser burns, hack and slash wounds, shrapnel and lead slugs in the guts. Most of these victims would zero out as soon as they were thawed. Yet it is impossible to operate on frozen patients. Ever try to place neat sutures in a frozen slab of beef? And so, violating my own standards of ethical practice, I experimented on those readily available bodies. I was an involuntary worker, and my test subjects were involuntary as well. Regardless, I did my best to save all their lives.

Putting my time to good use, I gathered experimental data and made adjustments to my theories as I patched together victims of violence. It took a couple of weeks for me to refine my theories and establish more or less standard procedures. Enough data came from my clandestine work to refine my theory, so that only minor modifications to standard cold cells would be required.
 
TRAVELLER STATISTICS

'STEVE PARSONS' EX-MERCHANT(NOBLE) 9B799A Age 22, 1 Term

TEK GRAV-0 GUN-0 COMPUTER-0

MERCHANT
PE ---

T1 N/1/2 ADMIN MEDICAL MEDICAL +1 INTEL (JACK-O-T)
E1 -20 COLD CELL DUTY, OPERATED LIFEBOAT DURING DISASTER, NO CASUALTIES

MUSTER OUT 4/1/3 GUN +1 EDUC cM 900

JUNIOR COLLEGE POISON/ANTIDOTE-2

OTHER .BROKER (.LEGAL)

[BLADE +1 EDUC]
 
Like an earlier poster, I'd said yes and no to all the OP's questions.

Because cold berths stop the "biological" clock and not the calendar, I don't think freezing yourself would be a good way to dodge the draft, for example. Yes, you're now 22 chronologically but you're also still 18 biologically so any concerns about fitness are irrelevant. On the first person uses a low berth to beat the draft or statute of limitations, the societies involved are going to have laws or protocols to prevent those kind of shenanigans.

As for freezing prisoners, there's a strong statistical correlation between age and criminal activity and one of the "benefits" of locking people up for decades or more is that they'll be old, and less likely to reoffend, when they get out. Freezing a 20yo murderer for 50 years only results in releasing a 20yo murderer back on the streets 50 years later where/when he will have even more trouble fitting in.
 
Like an earlier poster, I'd said yes and no to all the OP's questions.

Because cold berths stop the "biological" clock and not the calendar, I don't think freezing yourself would be a good way to dodge the draft, for example. Yes, you're now 22 chronologically but you're also still 18 biologically so any concerns about fitness are irrelevant. On the first person uses a low berth to beat the draft or statute of limitations, the societies involved are going to have laws or protocols to prevent those kind of shenanigans.

As for freezing prisoners, there's a strong statistical correlation between age and criminal activity and one of the "benefits" of locking people up for decades or more is that they'll be old, and less likely to reoffend, when they get out. Freezing a 20yo murderer for 50 years only results in releasing a 20yo murderer back on the streets 50 years later where/when he will have even more trouble fitting in.

There are three major approaches to incarceration.
  • Warehouse until old enough to no longer be likely to and/or able to offend
  • Take the incarceration as a chance to alter the behavior patterns of the criminal to non-criminal patterns.
  • Punish severely enough that fear of the punishment disincentivizes criminality
Cold Berth only has the third as a possibility.

A Hibernation berth with a sleep-state might accomplish behavioral modification via induced dream-state modification.
 
About other uses of cold berth Iread something (sorry, don't remember where) about the time travellers clubs in OTU, that are people, usually with money and without many attachements to their time, that put themselves in cold sleep just to awaken in the future, so that they can live some periods of the history and see the society change.

IIRC they began with people put in cold sleep due to illness, in hope they could be cured in the future, that once awaken and healed did not adapt well and decided to do it anew, this time jus to see the future.

Being in clubs allows them to be awakened in groups to help adapt to new societies.

See winkle on the wiki.

TY for the reference

There are three major approaches to incarceration.
  • Warehouse until old enough to no longer be likely to and/or able to offend
  • Take the incarceration as a chance to alter the behavior patterns of the criminal to non-criminal patterns.
  • Punish severely enough that fear of the punishment disincentivizes criminality
Cold Berth only has the third as a possibility.

A Hibernation berth with a sleep-state might accomplish behavioral modification via induced dream-state modification.

I'm not even sure the third possibility is fullfilled by the cold sleep sentence, as the subjective wiew of the convicted will be just going to sleep and awakening on a different (as is some years in the future) society, but not the punishment of boredom and lack of freedom a jail sentence means.
 
I'm not even sure the third possibility is fullfilled by the cold sleep sentence, as the subjective wiew of the convicted will be just going to sleep and awakening on a different (as is some years in the future) society, but not the punishment of boredom and lack of freedom a jail sentence means.

It depends upon the individual, and how attached they are to their station and associates. For a psychopath who isn't into material possessions, it's no threat at all... they're just going to go back to their killing once thawed, assuming they can get enough freedom after.

For a family man, a sentence of 200 years and forfeiture of all assets might as well be a death sentence - all he's got is his memories... and is forced to start over, probably from scratch. And in the sci-fi that uses it as a punishment, it's not short - it's 20+ years AND forfeiture of assets. Essentially disconnecting you from all your friends.

It would be like a bad dream, except that it just doesn't go away. Especially if they ship you elsewhere at the same time.
 
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