Opinions wanted: a software solution

[toddaroo]

My maiden post.

I've been spending the past few days reading posts in a couple of the forums that I have a particular interest in - specifically, this one and the Classic Traveller forum.

As far as this forum goes, I've read some interesting threads on GRiP, and KloOge, and openRPG, and am still trying to make a decision between them.

I registered on the GRiP forum and read quite a bit there, and from what I can gather, it seems GRiP is falling behind its competition due to a lack of developer support? Is that correct? Is GRiP development continuing currently? I am leery of spending money on a product that isn't up to its competition's standards and has no active support...

KloOge seems to me to be the best of the three I mentioned - at least opinion-wise - but then it also appears to be the most expensive.

openRPG is appealing because it is free. But poking around at the openRPG website reveals that almost all of the resource links are dead. No plugins, no graphics, no sheets... makes me leery as well.

I guess my biggest question, realistically, is how difficult is it to configure House Rules into GRiP, KloOge, and openRPG?

For example, I use the Classic Traveller rules set, but somewhat modified. The skills are completely re-written, and there are perks & limitations (similar to gurps advantages & disadvantages) though not gigantic gurps-esque laundry lists of them.

I've absolutely no experience with online RPGing of this kind. Back in the day I used to MUSH and MUD, but these sorts of software solutions seem completely different (and much more preferable)!

And since I have yet to locate local players for a CT game, I am seriously considering an online solution for expanding a potential player-base option.

 

[kaladorn]

Comments:

I liked GRIP. I ran several games with it. Then the trial license ran out. We had a valid license, but we'd lost the key. We tried to get a new key sent to us, but no reply was ever obtained. Grip had some good capabilities, a good drawing tool (though it needed more templates for stuff) and a good way to integrate with Traveller once you figured out how to write formulas for stuff.

All in all, a good project, but Hunter (if I'm not mistaken, also owner of this site) is the owner of that software and lots of other stuff, and he just has no time. It's a real pity this couldn't be open sourced or farmed off to some more active development community... but as you've seen from openRPG, that isn't always the solution either.

I'm just in the process of DLing KloogeWerks. Their reponse to my query email was fast, informative, and courteous. They support floating licenses, which I think is great as I run games with different groups of players, me being the common factor. So if I buy a master license and floating client licenses, then I can invite friends from wherever to play, N (say 6?) at a time (however many licenses I buy). But you can just DL the program and try it for short periods with a demo dungeon and up to 30 minute session just to give you a feel for it. No Traveller specific demo, but you might get a feel for what it can do.

I play to use (probably) KW and Skype (to get a broadband voice comm from the players at the same time). KW seems to currently be supported and since it is a pay thing, people have a degree more incentive to be involved, a problem that plagues open source. Hunter, OTOH, is just one guy who has a lot to handle and that tends to limit his cycles on any one thing.

So, although I like GRIP, I'm moving on to alternate solutions.

 

[Berg]

It's true GRiP is no longer being developed at present. Although you can find it discounted quite a bit or on EBay (15$) and the players mod is free, unless you can do this I would consider alternatives. But since the players mod is free you can always play in a game

If you have any questions, feel free to ask at the GRiP Forums, as I'm one of the Admins...
Traveller works quite nicely in GRiP... Check out Maladominus' Terra Incognita

Here's a list of most common Virtual Tabletops

Commercial...
Klooge
Fantasy Grounds
ScreenMonkey
Battlegrounds
GRiP

Free...
OpenRPG
RPTools
Gametable

For Free I would consider MapTool From RPTools

 

[Hemdian]

I've also been tinkering with RPTools and Skype recently. The electronic version of the AHL maps fit perfectly in MapTool, and its amazingly easy to make tokens for PCs and NPCs using TokenTool. MapTool seems pitched at just the right level of complexity (very easy to use without seeming mickey-mouse) ... the biggest problem my group has had has been in not always having a clear Skype channel.

Regards PLST

 

[toddaroo]

Thank you kaladorn, Berg, and Hemdian for your thoughts and comments.

RPTools and Skype is something I never thought of. I am going to have to take a look at that combo. Thanks Hemdian.

Thank you Berg for the comprehensive list. Much appreciated.

kaladorn, it seems you have been seeking the same sort of solution as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Berg]

Currently I use GRiP for Sheets, chat, sending files, etc and MapTool for... mapping

Player view...



GM view...



Works well

 

[toddaroo]

Thanks for the screen captures Berg.

On the GM's view - is the chat/RP window purposefully not visible?

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by toddaroo:
On the GM's view - is the chat/RP window purposefully not visible?

Yes, I wanted to show the adventure editor to show it's usefulness in running games. You can see the various tabs across the top for some of the other features.

 

[kaladorn]

Don't get me wrong - I liked GRIP fine. I was just disappointed when we misplaced a license key and the vendour couldn't even be bothered to reply to our email (tried multiple times).

I even spent some time learning the tricks of scripting and had scripts and an MT character sheet that had ways to autoroll combat with the character's weaponry including skills and attributes. And other skill tests were also macro driven.

I did the character's ship up in the map editor.

Overall, the tool wasn't bad, but support seems pretty sparse and future development seems dubious.

I've toyed a few times with writing my own (write networked software every day at work... eleven years now...) but then I realize I spend enough time at work with computers and should spend time with people and that puts paid to that bright idea. So now I contemplate buying the solution...

Thanks for the good discussion though, guys.

 

[Berg]

Understandable

Just when you were getting the hang of it, you can't use it anymore

One thing I would say is take your time before commiting (unless it's free or cheap ), as they all have strengths and weaknesses...

A friendly gentleman with experience in Klooge named Bruce is around here somewhere and may pop in and give the lowdown... He has made a Trav20 Klooge definition.

 

[Enoff]

I was poking around and found one free MUD client called Fire Client v2.13 at http://firebolt.com/

* Its a couple years old but free

 

[grumblesmurph]

OpenRPG is still supported here:
OpenRPG+
This is the version you want, not the one at OpenRPG.com.

OpenRPG2 is "indefinitely postponed".

Judging by the forums OpenRPG still has the most active community, so it is by no means dead or dying.

Some resources below:
Tangled Web
Mini Mayhem
Sheets

How well it supports houserules depends very much on what you want. OpenRPG is not designed to handle combat automation. You can easily set it up to do simple skill rolls and access mofifiers in your char sheet, but it does require the GM/player to handle the results of those rolls and update the sheet.

If you're not afraid of Python you can write your own plugin to get more automation or a custom dieroller for your houserules. In my experience you can do basic stuff more easily in OpenRPG than in the other programs, but more sophisticated stuff may be easier in other programs. OpenRPG has its quirks, same as any other program, so the best way to see if it suits you is simply to try it out.

The areas where OpenRPG really shines is in the chat and dieroller systems.

 

[kaladorn]

Tonight, I tried Kloogewerks with two players running a concurrent Skype conference call. We ran the demo (D&D) because that's what you get with unlicensed clients.

Our conclusion was Skype makes a good way to do audio conferencing if you've got the bandwidth (broadband a necessity, I think each call is 90 kbps of bandwidth for max quality).

KW turned out to be a good little program. Some parts initial seem un-intuitive, but there's a lot supported in the game, lots of options which can be activated or deactivated by the DM to change gameplay, and lots of things to figure out how to use (and multiple ways to skin most cats like combat rolling/targeting/applying of damage/initiative etc).

The one setting anyone wanting to playtest it will want to change is the chat removal delay. Default is 15 seconds and since game events like movement and such go through here, a screen can quickly fill up. Change it to 1 or 2 seconds and if you need to review older messages, bring up the chat log. That prevents the screen being (for 15 seconds...) overrun by a multistage movement or some such thing. You can turn off game events, but you then miss some rather useful messaging.

The conclusion was that in the early going, we'll get basically a chat client, a way to show maps and other stuff, and an ability to roll arbitrary dice. With further work, we'll be able to define a good character sheet, write scripts to act on that and to automate skills and combat.

This is much like what I found with GRIP, where in short order I had the characters hitting one button to roll the appropriate dice for their weapon and the report looked something like "Bob fires his ACR rolling 11 (3 + 6 + 2 skill) and scoring 3 points of damage." or getting skill rolls that said "Bob rolls his Mechanic-2 skill, getting 10 (4+4+2 skill) and taking 11 time increments.". This sort of stuff made the game real simple to run.

I think KW will offer us much of the same thing with some very rich potential, plus it seems to be more supported, plus (and this is a big one for me) FLOATING LICENSES FOR CLIENTS. This means I can run a game for my USAian pals in NH,OH,VA etc. and another from my Kingston, Ontario pals and another for my local Ottawa group, and all can use the same floating pool of licenses - no need for everyone to buy a client license! I only need to buy 4-8 floating licenses for clients and one master. That's a HUGE plus of GRIP for me.

Anyway, I liked it, it looked good, and I'm going to go ahead and buy some licenses. I'll probably make available my old GRIP scripts and character sheets and my soon-to-be KludgeWorks Traveller conversion scripts and sheets on a common webpage and post it here on COTI once I get that far along. That way others can make the trip easier and benefit from any efforts I put in - sort of an open-source gaming approach :0) Lord knows, I've benefited from others here and on the TML enough.

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
FLOATING LICENSES FOR CLIENTS. This means I can run a game for my pals... and all can use the same floating pool of licenses - no need for everyone to buy a client license! I only need to buy 4-8 floating licenses for clients and one master. That's a HUGE plus of GRIP for me.

Since the players client is free for GRiP, only the GM needs to buy it...

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Anyway, I liked it, it looked good, and I'm going to go ahead and buy some licenses. I'll probably make available my old GRIP scripts and character sheets and my soon-to-be KludgeWorks Traveller conversion scripts and sheets on a common webpage and post it here on COTI once I get that far along. That way others can make the trip easier and benefit from any efforts I put in - sort of an open-source gaming approach :0) Lord knows, I've benefited from others here and on the TML enough.

It sounds like you found a good solution

People will appreciate any donated work...
Mr Bhoins here at COTI has a T20 Klooge definition file available HERE
He went your route and bought a bunch of floating licenses... very generous GM

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Berg:
Since the players client is free for GRiP, only the GM needs to buy it...

Doh! Yes, of course, now I recall that is so. Still, if you're going to have licenses, floating ones are the way to go. I've had fixed license issues in other software for similar reasons. Unlicensed clients is another workable solution, to be sure and I stand corrected on the GRIP front - it has been a while since it was working for me due to having lost our license code and never recovering it...

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Anyway, I liked it, it looked good, and I'm going to go ahead and buy some licenses. I'll probably make available my old GRIP scripts and character sheets and my soon-to-be KludgeWorks Traveller conversion scripts and sheets on a common webpage and post it here on COTI once I get that far along. That way others can make the trip easier and benefit from any efforts I put in - sort of an open-source gaming approach :0) Lord knows, I've benefited from others here and on the TML enough.

It sounds like you found a good solution

People will appreciate any donated work...
Mr Bhoins here at COTI has a T20 Klooge definition file available HERE
He went your route and bought a bunch of floating licenses... very generous GM

[/QB][/QUOTE]

I'll take a look at it, there may be some stuff I can lift. Ruleswise, I've always been a big fan of MT's task and combat systems. I like T20 conceptually, but I haven't shifted over to using it because character creation in MT still seems much richer and I can ref MT with almost no reference to books, something I'm a long way from doing in T20.

But I will certainly share what I develop. And take any help, even if it isn't directly applicable, I can... appropriate :0)

And the truth is, GRIP wasn't bad. I just had a bad experience with support thereof that rendered it useless for us and I was thus disinclined to purchase another license, plus its sort of unsupported status anymore doesn't thrill me. But we did have some good times with it.

 

[Berg]

Keep us posted of the game, as it's always fun to read the exploits of online gaming to see how others do it

 

[Border Reiver]

I would love for someone to create an CT/MT/T4 or even TNE script definition for Klooge, especially since my own skills and patience are somewhat short. I might look at trying out a GT game (but I'll never admit it if I do).

 

[kaladorn]

I'm likely to try something that is a flavour of MT. I like their task system, though I have a few extra skills (borrowed from other works - some martial arts, life support, security, musician, journalist, farmer, CPR guns, etc.). But that will likely be a minor differentiation.

I'll let you know when and if I reach a worthwhile stage. :0)

 

[BetterThanLife]

One other thing you will find is that PC Gen supports both MT and T20. Since it is free, running T20 your players can use PCGen to create the characters with you having the books. Makes life easier.

One other thing, My Klooge sheet failed when it came to tracking ammo with a burst. It is theoretically possible but I never figured it out. (My GRiP T20 and Shadowrun sheets track ammo though.

)

 

[Berg]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
My GRiP T20 and Shadowrun sheets track ammo though.

Old girl still has it...