Odd Things in the MT Weapons

[Timerover51]

timerover51

Traveller has never been intended as a war game and nothing in Traveller has ever gone into anywhere near the detail you are looking for. I doubt any game ever has or ever will. It would be totally unplayable.

Even if everyone agreed on everything (not likely), that kind of detail would bog it down to the point of hours of game time required to simulate minutes of real time.

Actually, the detail or accuracy that I am looking for is pretty common in most WW2 miniature games. They routinely figure in angle of impact and range from weapon to target to determine penetration. I fail to see how ruling that mortars, unless specifically designated, are not going to be firing armor-piercing rounds, or that howitzers are only going to be firing anti-armor rounds in a direct fire application, and not indirect fire, or recognizing that there is a considerable difference between a mortar and an artillery round. I have effective 50% casualty burst radius for a wide variety of ammunition, which is very straightforward.

As for Striker, I haven't used it in decades but IIRC it has auto-cannon and other firing platform designs that can fire on any vehicle ground or air. There's your Anti Aircraft. ECM basically simulates multiple defenses, including window.

Auto-cannon are pretty much useless over 5,000 feet, and then there is this minor matter of fire control, and a mount capable of elevating to about 85 degrees. Your typical tank turret mount does not go much over 20 degrees. And at night, your Mark 1 Eyeball does have some problems.

Traveller has been designed to be relatively fast paced and imaginative in its play by both referee and players.

Its not the Black and White of books that make Traveller playable, but the Gray Matter between the ears.

Interesting comment. I take it that you are referring to my Gray Matter between the ears?

 

[aramis]

Actually, the detail or accuracy that I am looking for is pretty common in most WW2 miniature games.

Not many of which are still in print.

Tabletop wargaming has, as a rule, been moving more and more to simplified systems (Harpoon being the most notable exception). Probably the most popular on the planet at the moment is the Warhammer system - they've been removing detail rules in recent editions.

Warhammer Fantasy Battles started simple, by third was a rules-heavy 1" letter sized hardcover core with several additional books at 3/8" each.

Warhammer 40,000 started with a 1" thick moderately detailed "could almost pass for Traveller except for the Space Orks" feel. The universe got more detailed, and the rules less, with each edition.

They get insane amounts of play.

 

[Timerover51]

Vladika is right about no ruleset being able to provide the level of detail required for a playable game which simulates real world physics. Even the best physics engines for computer games can't do this.

I am puzzled by the idea that I am asking for a level of detail that is unplayable. A given round has a given effective 50% casualty burst radius. If using HEAT ammunition, it has a given level of effective armor penetration regardless of range. For high velocity guns, at a given range the gun will penetration this amount of armor, given a 90 degree angle of impact. That is a straightforward table of range verses armor. Where is the complexity? What is complex is the design sequence that is given in MegaTraveller. I have a table of effective burst radius for all US World War 2 ammunition, along with the 280mm atomic howitzer. Armor penetration tables can be found in a wide range of WW2 histories.

GM's are required because rules are only tools. When I can't find an exact replication of a real world mechanism or machine I find the closest analogue in the rules, think about how the game mechanic works, and then modify the analogue along the lines of the game mechanic to shape the mechanism or machine I require.

If this doesn't work I draft a house rule. If I'm still not sure I come here and ask the advice of others.

Regarding the definition of HEAP. Traveller definitions are generally wide enough to include a range of mechanisms. I take HEAP to mean High Explosive Armor Piercing but may include for the purpose of game play HEAT and HESH. Three different physical ways of knocking a hole in armor plate using high explosives but when using six sided dice they have to be merged for playabilty.

HESH is a very useful round and I'm particularly fond of the 76mm HESH round carried by Scorpion CVR-Ts. In game I might give a unit described has being equipped with these shells and firing against a concrete bunker a bonus to a task based on a MT gun firing HEAP.

But then as GM I like narrative and rules light combat. On the other hand I issue vehicle descriptions that include a breakdown of the ammunition types carried as standard practice for any given military or combat situation.

Based on your use of Scorpion light armored vehicles, I might guess that you are English, along with your use of HESH rather than HEP.

 

[Vladika]

Interesting comment. I take it that you are referring to my Gray Matter between the ears?

Not at all. I'm saying that Traveller works due to the imaginations of the minds of referee and players. Imagination doesn't come from books, tables, statistics etc. They are only tools.

Owning all the tools in the world would never made anyone a craftsman and buying paint and canvas by the truckload isn't going to make an artist.

Imagination and the talent to apply it are the basic requirements for greatness.

 

[Vladika]

HESH is a very useful round ... firing against a concrete bunker ...

The US Army has M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle firing a 64 lb (29 kg) High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) demolition projectile with 40 lb of C-4 explosive.
(British gun, and round.)

You should see what that does to steel or reinforced concrete building columns! Like Paul Bunion with an axe.

In firing against armor it often doesn't even penetrate in the classic sense. It spalls off part of the inner armor of the target vehicle and that fragments and ricochets around and around and around in the target. Not much recognizable as a human being is left.

 

[Timerover51]

Not many of which are still in print.

Tabletop wargaming has, as a rule, been moving more and more to simplified systems (Harpoon being the most notable exception).

Considering that I worked with Larry Bond and Chris Carlson on the Command at Sea games, I can understand that. Harpoon and Command at Sea are designed as naval simulation games, to as closely as possible simulate actual combat results.

As for Warhammer, the less said about that the better.

 

[Piper]

Actually, the detail or accuracy that I am looking for is pretty common in most WW2 miniature games.

Very few of which includes rules for crossbows, alien environments and rapid-pulse plasma guns.

I am puzzled by the idea that I am asking for a level of detail that is unplayable. A given round has a given effective 50% casualty burst radius. If using HEAT ammunition, it has a given level of effective armor penetration regardless of range. For high velocity guns, at a given range the gun will penetration this amount of armor, given a 90 degree angle of impact. That is a straightforward table of range verses armor.

All of which are included in the MT design sequences.

 

[Reban]

I am puzzled by the idea that I am asking for a level of detail that is unplayable. A given round has a given effective 50% casualty burst radius. If using HEAT ammunition, it has a given level of effective armor penetration regardless of range. For high velocity guns, at a given range the gun will penetration this amount of armor, given a 90 degree angle of impact. That is a straightforward table of range verses armor. Where is the complexity? What is complex is the design sequence that is given in MegaTraveller. I have a table of effective burst radius for all US World War 2 ammunition, along with the 280mm atomic howitzer. Armor penetration tables can be found in a wide range of WW2 histories.

In the specific case of a given round of HEAT ammunition where the characteristics of the round are known and given standard gravity and atmosphere there is no complexity in finding a value from a table.

In the case of a narrative campaign with a group of 4-6 player characters on a alien world firing weapons of futuristic manufacture at armor made from materials that have been designed at a quantum level there is some extra complexity.

Based on your use of Scorpion light armored vehicles, I might guess that you are English, along with your use of HESH rather than HEP.

Eh no. The Scorpion has been used in 22 countries and its turret has been used on at least two other vehicles that I can think of. What does my nationality have to do with this discussion?

 

[Timerover51]

Very few of which includes rules for crossbows, alien environments and rapid-pulse plasma guns.

All of which are included in the MT design sequences.

I also publish Don Featherstone's book, Skirmish Wargaming, that does include crossbows, and goes up through WW2. I am not discussing future weaponry, but weaponry on the level of World War 2.

I will not get into the effects of different atmospheres and differing gravity on weapons ranges. Or the effects on most projectile weapons, engines, and electronics equipment on exposure to high levels of dust, or chlorine, or cold.

As for the MT design sequence, it could be simplified enormously, by dropping the design sequence and going to standard weapon effects. A modern 155mm round has exactly the same effective burst radius as the WW2 round. As for ranges, where exactly in the design sequence does it give the range at which the KEAP is determined?

They could also drop entirely the flechette rounds for the very large caliber weapons.

 

[Timerover51]

Eh no. The Scorpion has been used in 22 countries and its turret has been used on at least two other vehicles that I can think of. What does my nationality have to do with this discussion?

My apologies for making the comment. I will most assiduously avoid making any more in the future.

In the case of a narrative campaign with a group of 4-6 player characters on a alien world firing weapons of futuristic manufacture at armor made from materials that have been designed at a quantum level there is some extra complexity.

I am curious as to what you mean by "quantum level"?

 

[Reban]

Traveler gives us advanced materials for use as armor such as Dense, Superdense and Bonded Superdense. Essentially these are materials that have had their "molecular structure partially collapsed in a massive artificial gravity field, which increases its density and strength".

Before you point it out that's at the molecular level....

Much earlier at TL10 we get Crystaliron who's crystal structure is carefully aligned using gravitic and probably zero-g manufacturing processes to gain maximum hardness and toughness.

Other versions of Traveller beyond TL16 have used quantum doping with exotic matter to give materials what might be considered superscience properties.

Finally several armors used in Traveller gain improved armor values when an electric current is passed through the material.

This last one might be the only use that actually qualifies in real science terms as quantum level alterations.


Maybe if I were Swedish or Swiss I'd have a better grip of the artillerist art.

 

[Hyphen]

Considering that I worked with Larry Bond and Chris Carlson on the Command at Sea games, I can understand that.

Ah, full disclosure! A True Grognard.

You'll understand, then, the difference between a "game" and a "simulation". My understanding is that Larry took lots of real-world information and distilled it into a comprehensive set of wargaming rules.

So comprehensive that it was the best simulation the US Navy had outside of their Cray supercomputers (we're talking mid-80's here). And a certain Mr Clancy, a fellow grognard, sought him out to use the rules, and they ended up co-writing "Red Storm Rising" (not to mention *Harpoon's* use in "Hunt for Red October").

On the other hand, Marc wrote the original LBB's pretty much on his own. He served in an anti-air unit in Vietnam, so maybe much of the nomenclature and weaponry came from his memories, not just current research. _Mercenary_, in contrast, was written by Frank Chadwick, and it's natural extension, _Striker_, was written by Frank Chadwick and John Harshman. They probably had a slightly different "take" on things than Marc.

As someone said, different authors contributed differently, both due to their background and experience but also as to what they were trying to achieve.

Larry was aiming at a simulation, and succeeded. This meant the target audience (wargaming grognards) were Pretty Damn Happy. It also meant that it was very difficult to create a "balanced" (not one-sided) scenario, because that's NOT what the military aims for - they are not "playing" or trying to be "fair" to the other side.

Traveller is primarily a _game_, so even with it's military-style extensions it still needs to be playable by non-grognards who - sacrilege! - could care less about the difference in burst radius of a 2mm vs 4mm shell, or that a star shell illum round lasts 4 mins rather than 3-and-a-half.

Everyone views the many and varied rulesets through their own lenses of background and interests. My current GM is a nurse, so guess which part of the skill rules has been dissected and expanded (that was a hint, BTW). You know you're in grognard territory when your orthapedic specialist has difficulty in treating a burn victim. ;-)

If you and your players have a particular focus on artillery tables, great! Give them to Don for review (although I strongly recommend letting others review them as well), then publish then for all of us to see. Some may be overjoyed to be able to use such detailed weaponry; others may decide to pull out that one example shell for use in a scenario ("I know it's illegal to import HEAP rounds to this planet, Mr Customs Officer, sir. But these are HESH rounds - I mean they're, like, totally different!")

Horses for courses, and viva la different interests. ;-)

 

[Timerover51]

Ah, full disclosure! A True Grognard.
You'll understand, then, the difference between a "game" and a "simulation". My understanding is that Larry took lots of real-world information and distilled it into a comprehensive set of wargaming rules.

I also have put together a naval war game based on the original Fred Jane 1898 Naval War Game rules, of which I have a copy, along with all of the succeeding changes published in the early Jane's Fighting Ships, as well as a copy of the developed 1912 rules, and all of the various editions of the US Coast Artillery War Game rules, which again focused on being an accurate simulation for training purposes.

If you and your players have a particular focus on artillery tables, great! Give them to Don for review (although I strongly recommend letting others review them as well), then publish then for all of us to see. Some may be overjoyed to be able to use such detailed weaponry; others may decide to pull out that one example shell for use in a scenario ("I know it's illegal to import HEAP rounds to this planet, Mr Customs Officer, sir. But these are HESH rounds - I mean they're, like, totally different!")

Horses for courses, and viva la different interests. ;-)

I have not stopped with the artillery rules. As for publishing anything that I put together, I first have to finish a World War 2 simulation game that I already have orders for. I have not finished with MegaTraveller comments on considerably more than just the artillery tables.

 

[Timerover51]

Traveler gives us advanced materials for use as armor such as Dense, Superdense and Bonded Superdense. Essentially these are materials that have had their "molecular structure partially collapsed in a massive artificial gravity field, which increases its density and strength".

Before you point it out that's at the molecular level....

Much earlier at TL10 we get Crystaliron who's crystal structure is carefully aligned using gravitic and probably zero-g manufacturing processes to gain maximum hardness and toughness.

Other versions of Traveller beyond TL16 have used quantum doping with exotic matter to give materials what might be considered superscience properties.

Finally several armors used in Traveller gain improved armor values when an electric current is passed through the material.

This last one might be the only use that actually qualifies in real science terms as quantum level alterations.


Maybe if I were Swedish or Swiss I'd have a better grip of the artillerist art.

I was focusing on areas where I have real world data to compare MegaTraveller with. If the comparison between MegaTraveller and the Real World does not coincide, I am not going to worry about any extrapolations from it. As for the exotic armors, MegaTraveller has them costing at about the same as mild steel or slightly more expensive. Considering the manufacturing processes that you are assuming, I fail to see why those exotic armors are not costing somewhere between 10 and 100 times the cost of mild steel, which I assume that they are using as the "soft steel" in the armor sequence. As for Crystaliron, at a guess, I would say that it is going to shatter like glass when hit hard by something, akin to Diamond.

Maybe if I were Swedish or Swiss I'd have a better grip of the artillerist art.

I am neither Swedish or Swiss, my background is Dutch. I am fully aware of Gustavus Adolphus contributions to the development of artillery and of the Swedish armaments firm of Bofors with respect to the development of the 40mm Bofors gun, and also the Swiss with respect to the Oerlikon guns, which was derived from the World War 1 German Becker gun. You also have Gribeauval in France during the middle of the 18th Century, and Thomas Rodman and John Dahlgren in the US. Rodman developed a method for casting large caliber guns from cast iron with much more strength than conventional casting, and Dahlgren developed the Dahlgren line of heavy naval guns used so effectively by the Union during the Civil War.

 

[HG_B]

As for Crystaliron, at a guess, I would say that it is going to shatter like glass when hit hard by something, akin to Diamond.

No. That's not what the name means in a metallurgic sense...

 

[Vladika]

I will not get into the effects of different atmospheres and differing gravity on weapons ranges. Or the effects on most projectile weapons, engines, and electronics equipment on exposure to high levels of dust, or chlorine, or cold.

Ummm That is Traveller... Far future, strange places, exotic atmospheres

Oh h*** Let's just stay home and fight WWIII instead...

 

[Cryton]

Ummm That is Traveller... Far future, strange places, exotic atmospheres

Oh h*** Let's just stay home and fight WWIII instead...

LOL! Working on that for a setting! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[aramis]

Ummm That is Traveller... Far future, strange places, exotic atmospheres

Oh h*** Let's just stay home and fight WWIII instead...

That goes on in the Twilight 2K section...

 

[Timerover51]

Originally Posted by timerover51
I will not get into the effects of different atmospheres and differing gravity on weapons ranges. Or the effects on most projectile weapons, engines, and electronics equipment on exposure to high levels of dust, or chlorine, or cold.

Ummm That is Traveller... Far future, strange places, exotic atmospheres

Oh h*** Let's just stay home and fight WWIII instead...

Do you really want me to discuss those areas? If so, I will endeavor to do so in excruciating detail.

As I indicated, I am looking at the validity of the MegaTraveller design sequence with respect to areas which can be cross-checked against the Real World. If the design sequence does not reflect Real World conditions, what validity does it have for any future extrapolation?

 

[aramis]

Do you really want me to discuss those areas? If so, I will endeavor to do so in excruciating detail.

As I indicated, I am looking at the validity of the MegaTraveller design sequence with respect to areas which can be cross-checked against the Real World. If the design sequence does not reflect Real World conditions, what validity does it have for any future extrapolation?

It's flaws are known - but it's considerably simpler than the only slightly more realistic FF&S, with half the work (at least once the errata is applied) - but truth be told, the design system was and is a pain.

If you want realism, FF&S is as close as any traveller gets, and it still can't do any of the WWII tanks correctly. (The old TNE lists made it pointedly clear.)