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Odd Things in the MT Weapons

Timerover51

SOC-14 5K
I was looking through MegaTraveller last night, trying to determine when the rules allow for star shells. In the course of so doing, I noticed some rather odd things showing up in the weapons and sensor areas. It is safe to post comments regarding some of these oddities, or would that be highly unwelcomed?

I will not even think of commenting on the ship design sequence.
 
I was looking through MegaTraveller last night, trying to determine when the rules allow for star shells. In the course of so doing, I noticed some rather odd things showing up in the weapons and sensor areas. It is safe to post comments regarding some of these oddities, or would that be highly unwelcomed?

It would be interesting to see if you'd spotted something no one else had spotted yet.


Hans
 
Star Shells are shells filled with a brightly burning chemical and a parachute that are fired to light up an area. The parachute deploys and the chemical is triggered lighting up like a star hanging in the sky. I think other versions of Traveller refer to these as Illum or Illumination rounds.

They essentially allow troops to light up an area of interest either to help detect an enemy or to allow friendly troops to function in daylight like conditions. generally as the caliber of shell goes up, the length of time the light burns for increases.

Timerover51: There's lots of established errata for all versions available both on these boards and via a simple Google search. There's no reason not to post it, but don't be surprised if its been covered as errata before. Most versions have been played for decades after all :)
 
Star Shells are shells filled with a brightly burning chemical and a parachute that are fired to light up an area. The parachute deploys and the chemical is triggered lighting up like a star hanging in the sky. I think other versions of Traveller refer to these as Illum or Illumination rounds.

They essentially allow troops to light up an area of interest either to help detect an enemy or to allow friendly troops to function in daylight like conditions. generally as the caliber of shell goes up, the length of time the light burns for increases.

Timerover51: There's lots of established errata for all versions available both on these boards and via a simple Google search. There's no reason not to post it, but don't be surprised if its been covered as errata before. Most versions have been played for decades after all :)

This has nothing to do with errata, just some very odd things with respect to Tech Level with respect to weapons and sensors, like Shaped Charges not being available until Tech Level 7, when the basic principal for shaped charges was discovered in 1888 by Charles Munroe. I have a copy of the Scribner's Magazine for 1888 where he first published his findings. They were very widely used in World War 2, starting in about 1940 or so, when the need for penetration of tank armor by the average infantryman became fully appreciated. Now, by no stretch of the imagination can 1888 or 1940 be called Tech Level 7. The National Defense Research Committee, in its final report on weapons effects in World War 2, of which I have a copy, gives some very detailed information on shaped charges and their effects. Considering that the copyright on MegaTraveller is 1987, I would have thought that someone at GDW would have had some idea as to the history of shaped charges, if not detailed information on their effects.
 
Ah now that is interesting.

Indeed the Russians had nifty shaped charge hand grenades during WW2. By most standards a handheld version of any machine or apparatus is usually considered the pinnacle of development (okay miniaturization comes next in some cases).

Tech Level isn't a perfect description of the technological capability of any given society. In-game its an artificial classification applied by the Scouts to help Travellers and the Imperial government get a sense of what can be expected to be found.

Using T5's more detailed treatment of Tech Level WW2 comes at about TL5.5 for Terra one and a half tech levels before MT's TL7 shaped charges.

Just because the book says shaped charges (or any technology) comes in at TLx doesn't mean you won't encounter more primitive versions among lower TL societies.

Its not that a technology isn't available (by strict interpretation of the rules), it's that the technology isn't mature, generally available and widely distributed. Tech Level is about telling what you can expect to be there.

Scare your PCs when the locals on a TL5 world lock onto their ship with ground based Ladar, but then have them realize the beam originates from an installation the size of a shipping container on the roof of the top science university.

I know from other threads you're having some issues with the way Traveller doesn't always map perfectly to real world science and technology, but it can with a little storytelling and the use of negative and positive modifiers.

Having said that I'm interested to see the specifics of what you've noticed and I look forward to seeing the write-up.
 
And TNE FF&S has HEAP at TL5 and SEFOP at TL8

Also just reading through the MT books I can't find Shaped charges but there is HEAP.

From version to version TL expands and contracts a bit. This probably reflects the designers and writers own knowledge and views.
 
Available at TL 6 per Striker.

And Tech Level 6 includes World War 2? I do not think so, but I would have to dig out my copy of Striker to check.

As for hand-thrown or small shaped charges, the Japanese developed them too, the British had a shaped-charge rifle grenade by 1941, the Germans developed a 30mm shaped charge grenade for use from grenade launchers and a modified version of their 7.92mm anti-tank rifle, and of course, the US fielded the 2.36 inch bazooka in time for the North African invasion in November of 1942, along with a shaped charge rifle grenade. By 1944, the US has put into service shaped charge anti-armor rounds for the 75mm howitzer and the 105mm howitzer, and had discovered the reduction in penetration caused by the rotation of the round. A 105mm howitzer of A Battery, 52nd Field Artillery Regiment, using 105mm High-Explosive Anti-Tank (shaped charge) ammunition, knocked out the first North Korean T-34/85 tanks knocked out by US ground forces in the Korean War.

As a side note, the battery had exactly 6 rounds of HEAT ammunition, of the total of 18 rounds of HEAT ammunition in the entire Far East Theater.

The US combat engineers were also deploying 15 pound and 40 pound demolition shaped charges for use against heavy concrete positions, and also to blast bore hole to drop ammonium nitrate cratering charges in to blast road crater blocks. The length of the jet on these charges is quite impressive.
 
Tech Level isn't a perfect description of the technological capability of any given society. In-game its an artificial classification applied by the Scouts to help Travellers and the Imperial government get a sense of what can be expected to be found.

Using T5's more detailed treatment of Tech Level WW2 comes at about TL5.5 for Terra one and a half tech levels before MT's TL7 shaped charges.

Just because the book says shaped charges (or any technology) comes in at TLx doesn't mean you won't encounter more primitive versions among lower TL societies.

Its not that a technology isn't available (by strict interpretation of the rules), it's that the technology isn't mature, generally available and widely distributed. Tech Level is about telling what you can expect to be there.

Scare your PCs when the locals on a TL5 world lock onto their ship with ground based Ladar, but then have them realize the beam originates from an installation the size of a shipping container on the roof of the top science university.

I would rather not get into the actual problems of trying to use any form of ground-based Ladar for initial detection of something. Tracking it using a monopulse set up is a bit more reasonable, as long as you ignore things like atmospheric absorption.

As for the Ladar coming from a shipping container-sized unit, I fail to see the point. I would recommend that you check out the size of the Microwave Early Warning radar that the US deployed in World War 2. See the Army Green Book series at the Center for Military History, under the third volume of the Signal Corps history. Specifically:

6. AN/CPS-1: the powerful MEW, or microwave early warning radar, a huge set on 3,000 mc, radiating a 10-cm wave with range up to 200 miles.

The US Army Signal Corps was in charge of all US Army radar development in World War 2. For those interested in the capabilities of the early sets, I would recommend taking a look at the series.

I know from other threads you're having some issues with the way Traveller doesn't always map perfectly to real world science and technology, but it can with a little storytelling and the use of negative and positive modifiers.

Having said that I'm interested to see the specifics of what you've noticed and I look forward to seeing the write-up.

No, the full write up will go to DonM first, and then I will see about posting. I would suggest that you see my comments with respect to the wet navy ship design.
 
And Tech Level 6 includes World War 2? I do not think so, but I would have to dig out my copy of Striker to check.
In CT, explicitly "6 circa 1940 to 1969" TTB, p85
In MT, TL5 is "Circa 1930" and TL6 is "Circa 1950"
 
In CT, explicitly "6 circa 1940 to 1969" TTB, p85
In MT, TL5 is "Circa 1930" and TL6 is "Circa 1950"

The "circa" is important. TL is defined by capability, not by Terran dates. They correspond, more or less, to Terran periods, sometime more, sometimes less. Revolvers, for example, are TL4 (circa 1860 to 1900) despite the fact that Colt manufactured revolvers in 1836 (and gunsmiths had handcrafted handturned revolvers in the Age of Napoleon). Magazine weapons are TL5 (circa 1900 to 1939) despite the 1860 Henry rifle and its more primitive predecessors.

(Apparently we Solomani were advanced in weapons TL, would you belive such a thing?!? :devil:)


Hans
 
In CT, explicitly "6 circa 1940 to 1969" TTB, p85
In MT, TL5 is "Circa 1930" and TL6 is "Circa 1950"

I was using MegaTraveller to stay consistent with the design sequence, and MegaTraveller puts shaped charges at Tech Level 7, as near as I can make out, as that is when they appear on the demolition tables. The Germans were using shaped charge demolitions against the Belgian forts in the spring of 1940, which would make them Tech Level 5 by MegaTraveller.

The demolition tables are weird too, but that is another story.
 
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As was pointed out earlier, shaped charges, in the form of HEAP ammunition are available in MT at TL 5:

Also just reading through the MT books I can't find Shaped charges but there is HEAP.

TL 5 and 6 HEAP rounds use the ammunition table penetration listings. At TL 7 and higher, they start receiving penetration bonuses.

Shaped demolition charges in MT and Striker aren't available until TL 7. This is both historically wrong and inconsistent within the system.

Good catch!
 
As was pointed out earlier, shaped charges, in the form of HEAP ammunition are available in MT at TL 5:



TL 5 and 6 HEAP rounds use the ammunition table penetration listings. At TL 7 and higher, they start receiving penetration bonuses.

Shaped demolition charges in MT and Striker aren't available until TL 7. This is both historically wrong and inconsistent within the system.

Good catch!

As no definition is given in MegaTraveller for the various acronyms, I was not sure exactly what HEAP stood for. I was not sure if it meant High Explosive Armor Piercing in the sense of an armor-piercing round containing explosive, a round using a shaped charge, or what the US Army calls a High Explosive Plastic round and the British call a High Explosive Squash Head round.

However, that does lead to some pretty odd results. The tables in MegaTraveller have HEAP rounds for all artillery up to 30cm or about 12 inch, for mortars, howitzers, and high velocity guns. They also have KEAP, which I assume means Kinetic Energy Armor Piercing rounds for all of the weapons as well. It shows a 60mm mortar round with a KEAP penetration of 16 and a HEAP penetration of 18. The 60mm howitzer shows exactly the same penetration. Now, normally a mortar is going to have a lot lower muzzle velocity than even a howitzer, so why is the KEAP penetration identical? And what is a mortar doing firing KEAP ammunition to begin with, as least the small ones? The US Army did field a large number of 12 inch Seacoast Mortars firing Deck-Piercing rounds ranging in weight from 700 pounds to 1046 pounds, depending on the range desired. They were quite deadly weapons if used on a ship target.

The NDRC study that I mentioned in an earlier post did a fair amount of experimenting with shaped charges, and determined that a standard projectile fired from a rifled barrel had significantly less penetration with a shaped charge than an unrotated round. The rotational forces tended to break up the jet, with the result that a good shaped charge round fired from a rifled barrel would give effective penetration of its own diameter in steel plate, assuming a 90 degree angle of impact. Now, that theoretical 12 inch/30cm HEAP round has a penetration factor of 50, so that basically means that an armor factor of 50 equates to 12 inches or 30cm of steel plate. It does not matter if it is "hard" steel or "soft" steel plate either, as when it comes to shaped charge penetration, the controlling factors are mass and thickness, not plate hardness. That does lead to some odd results if you look at the weight modifier for an armor factor of 50 compared to an armor factor of 4. The armor weighs 80 times as much, but only improves protection by a factor or 12.5.

Now, at Tech Level 5 to 6, we are talking World War 2, so applying Real World data is, as far as I am concerned, totally valid. I have a lot of very hard World War 2 data to work from using Real World weapons to compare against what the MegaTraveller design sequence is showing. I also have the necessary conversion factors to calculate the armor protective differences between wrought iron armor, compound armor, steel armor, nickel steel alloy armor, Harveyized steel plate, Krupp face-hardened steel plate, the US Navy's World War 2 Class "B" rolled homogenous steel plate, and British World War 2 face-hardened steel plate. I also have some very hard data on the penetration of concrete by WW2 projectiles and fragmentation patterns of mortar and artillery rounds, along with protective factors for various types of field fortifications.
 
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timerover51

Traveller has never been intended as a war game and nothing in Traveller has ever gone into anywhere near the detail you are looking for. I doubt any game ever has or ever will. It would be totally unplayable.

Even if everyone agreed on everything (not likely), that kind of detail would bog it down to the point of hours of game time required to simulate minutes of real time.

As for Striker, I haven't used it in decades but IIRC it has auto-cannon and other firing platform designs that can fire on any vehicle ground or air. There's your Anti Aircraft. ECM basically simulates multiple defenses, including window.

Traveller has been designed to be relatively fast paced and imaginative in its play by both referee and players.

Its not the Black and White of books that make Traveller playable, but the Gray Matter between the ears.
 
I would rather not get into the actual problems of trying to use any form of ground-based Ladar for initial detection of something. Tracking it using a monopulse set up is a bit more reasonable, as long as you ignore things like atmospheric absorption.

As for the Ladar coming from a shipping container-sized unit, I fail to see the point. I would recommend that you check out the size of the Microwave Early Warning radar that the US deployed in World War 2. See the Army Green Book series at the Center for Military History, under the third volume of the Signal Corps history. Specifically:

6. AN/CPS-1: the powerful MEW, or microwave early warning radar, a huge set on 3,000 mc, radiating a 10-cm wave with range up to 200 miles.

The US Army Signal Corps was in charge of all US Army radar development in World War 2. For those interested in the capabilities of the early sets, I would recommend taking a look at the series.



No, the full write up will go to DonM first, and then I will see about posting. I would suggest that you see my comments with respect to the wet navy ship design.

My example wasn't meant to be an extrapolation of Terran detection technology and US security policy, it was meant to be an off the top of my head example of how a GM could describe to players an encounter with technology of a lower than standard TL on another world. Possibly I should have included the fact that the atmosphere of planet is especially favorable to LADAR and the shipping container contains the entire Dept. of High Energy Laser research (which is poorly funded because the planetary government has not realized the military applications of its research)..... but you would have probably needed to roleplay through the session to find those things out.

And I was expressing anticipation of reading your notes in the medium to long term future, after they have been reviewed by DonM.

timerover51

Traveller has never been intended as a war game and nothing in Traveller has ever gone into anywhere near the detail you are looking for. I doubt any game ever has or ever will. It would be totally unplayable.

Even if everyone agreed on everything (not likely), that kind of detail would bog it down to the point of hours of game time required to simulate minutes of real time.

As for Striker, I haven't used it in decades but IIRC it has auto-cannon and other firing platform designs that can fire on any vehicle ground or air. There's your Anti Aircraft. ECM basically simulates multiple defenses, including window.

Traveller has been designed to be relatively fast paced and imaginative in its play by both referee and players.

Its not the Black and White of books that make Traveller playable, but the Gray Matter between the ears.

Although Traveller isn't a wargame it's technology lends itself very well to simulating & speculating on military applications. However naturally as a science fiction game these are weighted towards possible futures.

Vladika is right about no ruleset being able to provide the level of detail required for a playable game which simulates real world physics. Even the best physics engines for computer games can't do this.

GM's are required because rules are only tools. When I can't find an exact replication of a real world mechanism or machine I find the closest analogue in the rules, think about how the game mechanic works, and then modify the analogue along the lines of the game mechanic to shape the mechanism or machine I require.

If this doesn't work I draft a house rule. If I'm still not sure I come here and ask the advice of others.

Regarding the definition of HEAP. Traveller definitions are generally wide enough to include a range of mechanisms. I take HEAP to mean High Explosive Armor Piercing but may include for the purpose of game play HEAT and HESH. Three different physical ways of knocking a hole in armor plate using high explosives but when using six sided dice they have to be merged for playabilty.

HESH is a very useful round and I'm particularly fond of the 76mm HESH round carried by Scorpion CVR-Ts. In game I might give a unit described has being equipped with these shells and firing against a concrete bunker a bonus to a task based on a MT gun firing HEAP.

But then as GM I like narrative and rules light combat. On the other hand I issue vehicle descriptions that include a breakdown of the ammunition types carried as standard practice for any given military or combat situation.
 
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