• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Non-Imperium settings.

My first RPG was MT, shortly after it came out, and the GM didn't really adhere to it because he was still operating mostly in CT mode, so I suppose my games were really more CT than MT. I found the background interesting to read, but there was way too much to memorize it all to run a game from. I did run a game of MT, and considering it was my first, I admit it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't all that great either. Did a few sessions, and only used the basic background and made everything else up.

I still have not read the vast majority of Traveller stuff, though for a time I considered myself quite well-versed in TNE (despite never getting to run a game in it, and would not do so now), since I read all of that I could get my hands on (which was all of it, as far as I knew).

I've since run a couple dozen sessions of Pathfinder, and knew virtually none of the background (until the Kingmaker CG came out), I just made it all up (though with the help of some old 4-page adventure modules a friend wanted to try out to get my imagination going). I still know pretty much none of it, nor do I know any D&D background, other than a couple names here and there because of other games that reference them (Lords of Waterdeep, a couple of boardgames based on Ravenloft, that kind of thing). Not knowing the background has never really hampered me, probably because the people I was playing with also either didn't know or didn't care that much.

I was surprised to learn that the great mass of published Traveller material was considered a roadblock to new players, and was one of the reasons Dave wiped out the Imperium for TNE. That great mass had never been an obstacle to me, I didn't even know about it. Sounded like a lot of GMs were doing their new players a disservice. Or maybe too many OCD people were picking up the books and thinking they had to Catch 'Em All. But simply publishing under a new name and art design would've told those people they didn't need to care about the old books any more.
 
I was surprised to learn that the great mass of published Traveller material was considered a roadblock to new players, and was one of the reasons Dave wiped out the Imperium for TNE. That great mass had never been an obstacle to me, I didn't even know about it. Sounded like a lot of GMs were doing their new players a disservice. Or maybe too many OCD people were picking up the books and thinking they had to Catch 'Em All. But simply publishing under a new name and art design would've told those people they didn't need to care about the old books any more.
or, occams razor, Dave was wrong about what was wanted; TNE was up as long as MT, and had half the total sales. Given his tirade in Hiver and Ithklur, he certainly was out of touch with what every Traveller fan I knew at the time wanted. Finding new players wasn't an issue for me until TNE was the standard.

Marc accepts responsibility for the virus; it wasn't his idea, but it was an idea he approved.

Many players found the Alien modules amongst the best parts of Traveller, especially the DGP ones. (Fans often were overthinking them, too... search the board for "comfy shoes" if you want to see evidence of that). Letting people read Sups 8 & 11 was a gateway drug. Or the MT Imp. Encyclopedia. TNE had no such "easy way" to hook players, and most of the TNE games I heard of were non-OTU. Cryton's being the big exception.
 
TNE was my favorite OTU setting.
I liked MT ok, but TNE was what really hooked me on Traveller. I'd played Traveller before, but it was always a slog. The players were general either trying to A) increase their SOC and rub elbows with planetary governors, and other upper crust, or B) Trying to wheel and deal. It was like being stuck at the tavern of 80-90% of a game session. Often alot of the game was about Imperial Politics or Imperial Intrigue.
TNE did away with alot of this, and there was an actual unknown frontier to explore. Not yet-another-imperial-world.
 
The proto-Spinward Marches and Third Imperium, MT hard Times, and TNE are my favourites. if I had to pick only one then right now I would go with the TNE setting, wouldn't use the GDW d20 rules for it though.
 
The proto-Spinward Marches and Third Imperium, MT hard Times, and TNE are my favourites. if I had to pick only one then right now I would go with the TNE setting, wouldn't use the GDW d20 rules for it though.

I would still go proto-Spinward Marches and Third Imperium, though the Regency in 1200+ might be interesting (I would still want G/M-Drives to supersede HEPlaR at higher TLs, though ;) ).
 
I never went the route of reactionless drives, the m-drive of CT 77 is a reaction drive/fusion drive, so when Hard Times had design rules for fusion rockets... it was a no brainer to use those. The one nod to gravitics I made was for the null-grav technology to reduce inertial mass of the ship.

Borrowing from Alternity I put gravitc drives as beyond Imperial TL. I also adopted the stutterwarp for a bit as an m-drive but that I dropped in favour of keeping vector combat :)

In my Culture adaptation I have warp drives, hyperdrives, displacement drives, fusion drives, chemical rockets, ion engines, plasma rockets, solar sails, laser sails...
 
I never went the route of reactionless drives, the m-drive of CT 77 is a reaction drive/fusion drive, so when Hard Times had design rules for fusion rockets... it was a no brainer to use those. The one nod to gravitics I made was for the null-grav technology to reduce inertial mass of the ship.

Note that I would not want to get rid of HEPlaR Drives, just make them the Lower-TL Standard for TL9/10-11/12, with a type of limited-range G-Drive for TL11+ and a Long-Range Hyper-Gravitonuclear (take-your pick handwavium) M-Drive that non-linearly couples to gravity in some way for TL12/13+. That at least showcases a TL progression with real practical effects.

Following on the "HEPlaR" abbreviation/acronym, I invented "HGUIm Thruster" - "Hypergravity Unified Impulse Thruster", because I thought it needed a scientific-engineering name.

. . . I also adopted the stutterwarp for a bit as an m-drive but that I dropped in favour of keeping vector combat :)

I have also toyed with using Stutterwarp as an inferior alternative to Jump Drive by dividing its efficiency by 100. So it takes vastly longer to get between close systems (months), and hits the "shelf" toward the edge of the outer-system, so that it still necessitates the carrying of a Reaction Drive or M-Drive for in-system maneuver and to get to the Stutter-Drive initiation distance.
 
Last edited:
or, occams razor, Dave was wrong about what was wanted; TNE was up as long as MT, and had half the total sales. Given his tirade in Hiver and Ithklur, he certainly was out of touch with what every Traveller fan I knew at the time wanted. Finding new players wasn't an issue for me until TNE was the standard.

Marc accepts responsibility for the virus; it wasn't his idea, but it was an idea he approved.

Many players found the Alien modules amongst the best parts of Traveller, especially the DGP ones. (Fans often were overthinking them, too... search the board for "comfy shoes" if you want to see evidence of that). Letting people read Sups 8 & 11 was a gateway drug. Or the MT Imp. Encyclopedia. TNE had no such "easy way" to hook players, and most of the TNE games I heard of were non-OTU. Cryton's being the big exception.
Don said he yelled at Dave during GenCon or so "you are committing genocide!" about ending MegaTraveller. Dave got testy talking about it all, said to ask Darlene about the numbers.
 
Don said he yelled at Dave during GenCon or so "you are committing genocide!" about ending MegaTraveller. Dave got testy talking about it all, said to ask Darlene about the numbers.
That explains part of the attitude I noted during talking to him at a model railroad con.
 
things aramis said
Rather than spend all day commenting on all that (as I am all too often inclined to do, especially when I don't have time to), I'll just say that I didn't and don't have access to the tea leaves and fanmails he read and I'd wager you don't either. He (and the rest of the team) made a gamble and I think you would agree that it didn't pay off, though we might not agree on why it didn't. But Dave was by no means a Mehdi Ali or Irving Gould (or Joe Quesada, for that matter), and the attitude a lot of people have toward him should be reserved for them instead, should they ever show their faces. Dave didn't deprive us of an affordable computer 20 years ahead of its time on a dare.

When I look at TNE, I see a lot of bold changes, some of which were clearly meant to capitalize off trends of the day, and others were innovations, which are always risks. You don't get out of a problem (a shrinking market) by continuing to do what got you into the problem, you've got to do something different (make changes and get new customers). The team understood that, and signed on.

A few things off the top of my head: A new D20 mechanic, because people loved D20s. Zombies, sort of. Cyborgs. Sapient computers that FINALLY make you want to stop playing a Darrian (Ugh!). Vampire ships, which basically act like random wilderness monsters while you're on the way to Castle Ravenloft. Dark and edgy and full of moral ambiguity, but also a bit of preaching about how it's not okay to make unlimited war or destroy biospheres. Post-nuclear-apocalypse, and jerk ancestors to blame. Exploration as the default assumption, which just about ALL the best games have at least some of. Aliens that weren't just dudes in rubber suits. Women in powered armor that didn't look crafted for them (so, equal rights and no sexualizing them). The only thing it lacked was angsty emo teens trying to hump Donald Trump's leg. And maybe it was too "my parents' game" by the 90s, whereas now it's approaching "Roaring 20s is back in style". I'd say TNE was 30 years ahead of its time, just like the Amiga (if measured in software-years).

Nowadays, some of my friends spend hundreds of dollars on ONE boardgame and its premium bits. Avalanche Press is also somehow still in business, despite 20+ years of crap rules (can't speak for 2nd edition). Fantastic art sells well. TNE's art was more fitting for Robotech, and you can't do that unless you have a TV show to prop it up. But if you can't find the right artists for the right price, and everyone thinks LBBs are too reductionist and overdone, well, what can you do?

I get that a lot of people didn't like the changes, but I don't think they gave many of them a fair shake either. I never got to play a game with it, but I've invested a lot more time and money and creativity into it than probably any other game before or since, and I play Dominion an average of 10 times a day for the last few years. (Probably isn't fair to compare to EU1-4, since a single game of that takes 1-3 months.) I STILL use it (or FFS, really) as a baseline set of assumptions when I start creating new games or stories. Sorry you didn't enjoy it, but I guess I enjoyed it enough for two. :)
 
I liked TNE just fine, and managed to sell it to people that I couldn't interest in MegaTraveller at all. I still think the rules were some of the best Traveller rules ever (and I include GURPS in that, and it's a very solid set of rules), and had the line lasted long enough for the kinks to be worked out, would have been.

Another thing it had that was considered essential at that time was a meta-plot, though GDW was clever enough to make it fairly easily avoidable.

My recollection of conversations with Loren (RIP) and Dave in the early-mid 2000s is that neither think TNE was to blame for GDW's failure. Rather, the second Gulf War book (the first one made them a fortune, the second one cost them a fortune...), the lawsuit by TSR, and the downturn in RPG sales in general (largely the fault of MtG and the CCG craze it triggered) were at fault.
 
That's pretty much my take, the 90's were rough on alot of RPGs. It was basically the second wave of the slump 80's RPG slump that both D&D and Traveller were able to ride out.

My recollection of conversations with Loren (RIP) and Dave in the early-mid 2000s is that neither think TNE was to blame for GDW's failure. Rather, the second Gulf War book (the first one made them a fortune, the second one cost them a fortune...), the lawsuit by TSR, and the downturn in RPG sales in general (largely the fault of MtG and the CCG craze it triggered) were at fault.
 
Back
Top