Noble Lands

[Hal]

What this post is NOT...

It isn't an attempt to say that speculations of any kind are right or wrong.

What it IS...

Is an attempt to follow through on the speculations to see where it leads. Regarding "home" worlds and "fief" worlds, as well as the ability to mobilize people to where they can be best utilized, let's follow that train of thought and see where it leads...

First - Fiefs based upon the rules, are regions in which the holder not only holds "landlord" rights per se, but also holds other rights. These rights are (per page 49): Economic Control and Outright Ownership.

That having been said, it does require some speculative thought as to the implications involved. For instance, these "land grants". Are they obtained from member worlds via rights as negotiated within treaties between the worlds in question and the Third Imperial Government? Can the Third Imperium purchase new lands and then offer them as "grants" to whomever it desires? Are lands offered in land grants, renewable or are the set in stone upon the entry of the world into the Third Imperium?

But, having asked those questions, the next set of questions that comes to mind are:

Just how much land belongs to the home world in question, and just how much of the lands are held collectively by the Third Imperium?

In the event that a government experiences a coup - what happens to the lands held by Imperial Nobles?

Law Enforcement: Economic Control of a hex (approximately 100 square miles per hex) includes (per page 49) the right to impose laws (within reason!) on what or who can use the lands, and what behavioral patterns are permitted within that area. This ability is separate from "Governmental control", or the wording on page 49 wouldn't have specified that it is economic control, distinctly different than simple economic control.

In all of these aspects, the ability to say "This is on the home world" versus "This is on the Fief World" requires some careful consideration of the ramifications.

 

[Hal]

So what are the ramifications of what I've raised in the last post? I open the question up for people to discuss, not simply to offer my thoughts, but to invite that we hammer out something that makes sense to a LOT of differing minds.

My own thought is this:

If the lands are NOT inheritable, then there will be no long view of recovering assets spent on improving the lands. Some of these "improvements" will take a half-lifetime or longer to realize (if one uses the rules from T4's pocket empires!).

If the lands ARE inheritable, then, like anything else in finite supply, eventually, there will be a point where there are no more lands available to offer in land grants to the younger "Nobility" who come after the fact (ie present time). The only way for the limited "Inheritable" lands to become available, is if the noble family lacks heirs upon the death of its last legitimate holder - or legitimate holders relinquish their rights to the holding in question.

Then there comes to be the issue of Economic Control versus Governmental Control. Can a world Government, exercise "governmental" control over land that is held by the Fief holder, without incurring friction? Notice that the "within reason" clause implies that there is a greater authority over the grant holder's rights capable of saying "this is not within reason - our authority supercedes yours".


In the end analysis, it seems to me, that the only way a "land grant" makes sense, is for it to be associated with the title of nobility itself, and that title is basically the "root" of authority by which authority is exercised by the individual holding it. It wouldn't make sense for a noble to be headquartered on one world, and have his land grant be on a world in another quadrant (aka - 4 sector sized region of space) while his Nobility patent is geared for another world for whom he is supposed to be a representative for the Third Imperium.

So, are those "hexes" supposed to be within the same system - but on two separate worlds? Are those hexes supposed to be associated with the Patent of Nobility itself? What of Patents of Nobility that are based upon Famous Naval Victories? Are those Patents "Honor" Patents without any chance of land grants being attached to them? Are Patents implying "Sir Belvadere of Regina" is actually headquartered upon Regina, and his responsibilities to the Empire and Regina are fixed, or is he Sir Belvadere someone who happens to reside on Regina, but his land grants are located on say, Adibicci in the Lunion Subsector?

 

[Selandia]

So what are the ramifications of what I've raised in the last post? I open the question up for people to discuss, not simply to offer my thoughts, but to invite that we hammer out something that makes sense to a LOT of differing minds.

My own thought is this:

If the lands are NOT inheritable, then there will be no long view of recovering assets spent on improving the lands. Some of these "improvements" will take a half-lifetime or longer to realize (if one uses the rules from T4's pocket empires!).

The logic would be that you spend your "personnal" money (the portion of the tax income that is granted as personnal revenues) on assets (stores, industries etc...) that will belong to you and are inheritable while tax money spent on Infrastructure are transmitted along the Fief. That to my mind is the "negociated"

(cut and paste from p.50)" The holder is granted a portion of the tax income from the land. Precisely how much is negotiated by the holder and the local authorities, and depends on investment by, and the influence of, the holder"

If the lands ARE inheritable, then, like anything else in finite supply, eventually, there will be a point where there are no more lands available to offer in land grants to the younger "Nobility" who come after the fact (ie present time). The only way for the limited "Inheritable" lands to become available, is if the noble family lacks heirs upon the death of its last legitimate holder - or legitimate holders relinquish their rights to the holding in question.

yes, that is a problem. However it may be scaled down if you inherit the local hex you own and not those you control.

Then there comes to be the issue of Economic Control versus Governmental Control. Can a world Government, exercise "governmental" control over land that is held by the Fief holder, without incurring friction? Notice that the "within reason" clause implies that there is a greater authority over the grant holder's rights capable of saying "this is not within reason - our authority supercedes yours".

I could see regulatory autority rather than legislative autority, bylaws rather than laws as an explanation. To give a (canadian) example, the town does not want a local airport to have flying school, airports are of federal jurisdiction, so tough luck for the town but the town may refuse to build any additional roadwork:devil: around the airport

I could also see having the power of an Administrator over the business created by my administration. As Count Rethe, I decide to build the "Ballin Star Trades Institute" as a Community College that graduate Spaceships officers. If Rethe was Canada, the zoning and business permit would be Municipal business, the Educational Certification as Community College would be under Provincial rules while the professionnal licenses (and therefore the course content) would be fixed by the Federal admin through Transport Canada. That still leave me all managerial decisions as Administrator while as Count I might claim arbitration power if there are conflict of authorities.

In the end analysis, it seems to me, that the only way a "land grant" makes sense, is for it to be associated with the title of nobility itself, and that title is basically the "root" of authority by which authority is exercised by the individual holding it. It wouldn't make sense for a noble to be headquartered on one world, and have his land grant be on a world in another quadrant (aka - 4 sector sized region of space) while his Nobility patent is geared for another world for whom he is supposed to be a representative for the Third Imperium.

make sense

So, are those "hexes" supposed to be within the same system - but on two separate worlds? Are those hexes supposed to be associated with the Patent of Nobility itself? What of Patents of Nobility that are based upon Famous Naval Victories? Are those Patents "Honor" Patents without any chance of land grants being attached to them? Are Patents implying "Sir Belvadere of Regina" is actually headquartered upon Regina, and his responsibilities to the Empire and Regina are fixed, or is he Sir Belvadere someone who happens to reside on Regina, but his land grants are located on say, Adibicci in the Lunion Subsector?

One for each hex on a mainworld there is an non mainworld hex in the same system.

cut and paste p.50 "A land grant is a gift of real estatel and privileges-made by the government or other authority, to an individual as a reward, especially for service or accomplishment, or as an incentive to develop the land"

What is the reason why Sir Belvadere got the land? From there we may figure if it's a reward for work done or an incentive to work more.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Drakon]

That having been said, it does require some speculative thought as to the implications involved. For instance, these "land grants". Are they obtained from member worlds via rights as negotiated within treaties between the worlds in question and the Third Imperial Government? Can the Third Imperium purchase new lands and then offer them as "grants" to whomever it desires? Are lands offered in land grants, renewable or are the set in stone upon the entry of the world into the Third Imperium?

There are several possible ways of getting land. The Empire could have colonized an uninhabited system. The Empire could have conquered an inhabited system, and they could make a treaty with another inhabited planet.

As for the "renewability" and inheritablity of the grants, I believe that the grants have to be permenent. (Or rather, permenent at the whim of the Emperor.) The whole idea behind granting land and creating lords and such is to give stability to the Empire. To develop the worlds and take care of Imperial business. It is harder to motivate folks into doing their jobs if someone else will just come in and take it all away.

Just how much land belongs to the home world in question, and just how much of the lands are held collectively by the Third Imperium?

A Terrain Hex, the basic unit of the land grant, is about 100 kilometer diameter hex, about 3 times the length of Manhatten. In one respect, its a lot of land, compared to the people inhabiting it. But compared to the overall area of the planet, not so much.

Assuming my math is correct, 4 hexes, or the home world hexes of a baron, are about the size of Macedonia.

In the event that a government experiences a coup - what happens to the lands held by Imperial Nobles?

Again this gets complicated based on how much Imperial influence has on the local government. Slath is a corporate world with barely 300 souls. So in effect, the local knight could very well be the local government. And a coup would have a severe impact on happens to his lands and life.

Lemish is a world of millions and it is unclear to me just how involved the Imperial Baron would be in planetary government. So a coup at the planetary level may not affect him or his lands much at all.

I would consider the lands of an Imperial noble to be under Imperial, rather than planetary jurisdiction.

Law Enforcement: Economic Control of a hex (approximately 100 square miles per hex) includes (per page 49) the right to impose laws (within reason!) on what or who can use the lands, and what behavioral patterns are permitted within that area. This ability is separate from "Governmental control", or the wording on page 49 wouldn't have specified that it is economic control, distinctly different than simple economic control.

I see it this way. There is Imperial law, which covers the basic, murder, theft, piracy, contracts. Beyond this, the lord of the manor is lord of the manor. He can decide who lives on his lands, what tax levels are and whether certain behaviour should be banned or encouraged, like spitting on the sidewalk, or public nudity, or smoking.

 

[Drakon]

If the lands ARE inheritable, then, like anything else in finite supply, eventually, there will be a point where there are no more lands available to offer in land grants to the younger "Nobility" who come after the fact (ie present time). The only way for the limited "Inheritable" lands to become available, is if the noble family lacks heirs upon the death of its last legitimate holder - or legitimate holders relinquish their rights to the holding in question.

Really wish they would explain what happened to the last Baron. But there are several ways for a baron to lose his job, and with it, the land and holdings. Treason, or other henious crime, or incompetence, even failure to prevent a mutiny. If the present baron loses his job, the lands and titles go to whomever the Emperor appoints as a successor. If he dies in office, he can pass the office and lands to his heir.

Then there comes to be the issue of Economic Control versus Governmental Control. Can a world Government, exercise "governmental" control over land that is held by the Fief holder, without incurring friction? Notice that the "within reason" clause implies that there is a greater authority over the grant holder's rights capable of saying "this is not within reason - our authority supercedes yours".

Politics without friction? The very idea. And yes, the authority over the grant holder is Emperor Strephon. Of course by way of the local Archduke, Duke, Marquis and Count.

In the end analysis, it seems to me, that the only way a "land grant" makes sense, is for it to be associated with the title of nobility itself, and that title is basically the "root" of authority by which authority is exercised by the individual holding it. It wouldn't make sense for a noble to be headquartered on one world, and have his land grant be on a world in another quadrant (aka - 4 sector sized region of space) while his Nobility patent is geared for another world for whom he is supposed to be a representative for the Third Imperium.

Funny you should mention this, but it is not without precedence. English lords were granted fiefs all over the island in order to diminish north-south rebellions. It made it difficult and costly to fight against one's own lands.

In such cases, the noble would have to have his appointed representative at his secondary fiefs while he attends to baronial duties.

So, are those "hexes" supposed to be within the same system - but on two separate worlds? Are those hexes supposed to be associated with the Patent of Nobility itself? What of Patents of Nobility that are based upon Famous Naval Victories? Are those Patents "Honor" Patents without any chance of land grants being attached to them? Are Patents implying "Sir Belvadere of Regina" is actually headquartered upon Regina, and his responsibilities to the Empire and Regina are fixed, or is he Sir Belvadere someone who happens to reside on Regina, but his land grants are located on say, Adibicci in the Lunion Subsector?

My Take: The land is inheritable, but, if I recall right, the rules say Knighthoods are not inheritable. Barons and above are inheritable. The Knight's hexes are on the same homeworld or its satellites. Barons, same star system.

Sir Belvadere is based on Regina, and if he is only a Knight, his fief is on Regina as well. Whatever his other land grants and titles are, which would be related to anything in the Lunion subsector, have nothing to do with being Sir Belvadere of Regina.

But, thats my take.

 

[Hal]

One thought that came to me reading the responses, was the issue of a Baron losing his lands. In the event that the lands are not taken from the Baron for reasons of Treason, it doesn't track that the Baron's Heirs should lose the right to inherit the land itself. Can, for example, a Baron who commits Murder in England, lose his lands, or is the Baron sent to prison, and if necessary, his heirs take over the control of the land? It doesn't seem to me that "Incompetence" alone is sufficient grounds to deprive the heirs of their inheritance. If anything, one might wonder if Nobles can be forced to abdicate in favor of more "favored" heirs - but even that "path" is fraught with dangers and potential for abuse.

If Nobility do not have rights associated with their domains, and have little more than responsibilities and can be judged incompetent (who by the way has the social standing to approve the charges of incompetence and who has the standing to actively judge yea or nay?).

Again, I find it very difficult to convince someone to build "improvements" on land they don't own, and have no ability to recoup their "investments" in the event someone decides it is time to take it away. Case in point. Suppose you have an investment that will eventually repay you with a 10% increase, but will take 20 years for that increase to come to fruition. How much time would be required for a 20 Million Credit investment to break even with a 2 Megacredit return per year after 20 years?

Contrast this against a "safe investment" that increases in value to the tune of roughly 2% per year for the same period of time.

Now for the fun part...
(see next post)

 

[Hal]

Let's say, that in the year 613, a world joined the Third Imperium. Let's say it was a 6,000 mile diameter world, with atmosphere 7, hydrographics 6 (for sake of argument).

At this exact moment in time, NONE of the land on that world is held by the Third Imperium. So - just how much land in the year 613, is the land required to set aside for Imperial use?

Does the world have a Knight? Not yet! Does it have a Baron? Definitely not yet. Does the world have any other nobles? Nope.

So, just how many nobles will this world be expected to sustain into the future? Will there be 80 knights? Will there be 1 Baron, and a Marquis?

It isn't that we don't have the full picture as yet when it comes to nobles per se (we don't!), but we also don't know what the Long term picture is based upon the 613 years the Imperium has been in existence. By now, the whole thing already has been pummeled into shape, has been codified and people know what to expect. Scientists can make predictions on what the world's capacity for sustainable population is or will be - so if nobility is based upon the numbers of people served, then we not only have to account for what the world has NOW, but what the world will have in the future.

This is why I mentioned the fact that land grants can't exactly be "renewable" resources. No world government is going to say "What, you need another 400 square miles of land donated to the Irridium throne? Not a problem, here take it!" One would strongly suspect, that world governments are going to howl at having to provide more land to the Third Imperium without some form of recompense. So, either the lands that are granted to holders is set aside when the world joins the Third Imperium, or the Third Imperium is in the habit of paying recompense for lands that pass from the Local World's sovereignty, into Imperial Sovereignty.

So, rather than get into a philosophical debate regarding the effects of corruption, and how any group of people who can exercise authority, will insure that their children will have the edge in the future (commonly known as greed) - the issue that stands before us in this thread, is the nature of "human nature" and how they will respond to ideas as presented in previous posts.

So, anyone care to do the math when it comes to investments? Suppose for the sake of argument, you have a holding that will provide you with 20,000 credits per year after all expenses involved are paid. Let us further suppose, that someone offers you a chance to improve the holding such that it would require 20 Megacredits in capital, to receive a 10% boost in income after 20 years. Let us further suppose that the Nobles in question here, have access to anagathics, allowing them to live a lifespan that is 4 x that of a normal un-medicated individual can hope to achieve.

How long will it take for the investor to recover the money he spent on the capital investment assuming that the increases in income will not begin until 20 years later? Then contrast this against an investor who can receive a 2% increase in the initial 20 Megacredits per year. Which would YOU invest in?

 

[rancke]

It would be a lot easier if Marc Miller would publish a revised version of the old Nobles essay setting forth how nobles work in the New Reality. (I take it from the fact that no one has quoted it that no such essay is included in the T5 core book?)

I don't suppose there are any plans to publish such an essay any time soon?


Hans

 

[Drakon]

If Nobility do not have rights associated with their domains, and have little more than responsibilities and can be judged incompetent (who by the way has the social standing to approve the charges of incompetence and who has the standing to actively judge yea or nay?).

The one who issued the patents, namely Emperor Strephon himself is the sole judge for the competence of his nobles. While technically the Emperor can revoke a patent for any reason, tradition, the need for stability, and common sense dictate a prudent course and little interference for those patent holders who advance the Empire's interests.

The Empire is held together by men, not laws, by the personal honor, and enlightened self interests of her nobles. An Emperor who discards barons for unjust cause may end scaring the remaining nobles.

 

[Drakon]

Does the world have a Knight? Not yet! Does it have a Baron? Definitely not yet. Does the world have any other nobles? Nope.

So, just how many nobles will this world be expected to sustain into the future? Will there be 80 knights? Will there be 1 Baron, and a Marquis?

I didn't see a population figure and I believe that is key to the question. Assuming we are talking about a virgin planet, (full biosphere, earth normal, no sophants) then the world starts out as a colony world. In that case, the Emperor declares the planet an Imperial colony and assigns nobility to take care and run things, and grants tracts of land on the uninhabited world to those nobles.

Sir Hal, take your colonization team, and carve a new home out of the wilderness of this new planet. Start with this specific grant, but as it is a virgin planet, how much land you can develop depends on how many people and what tech you can bring to bear to develop it.

On the other hand, if the world already has a species of advanced sophants, with their own culture, government, traditions and such, the Knight's fief would be little more than the Imperial Embassy.

So, either the lands that are granted to holders is set aside when the world joins the Third Imperium, or the Third Imperium is in the habit of paying recompense for lands that pass from the Local World's sovereignty, into Imperial Sovereignty.

Or not paying recompense. Empire could wave a portion of the taxes owed by the world in exchange for real estate.

As for the math question, I want to beg off from that at the moment.

 

[Hal]

It would be a lot easier if Marc Miller would publish a revised version of the old Nobles essay setting forth how nobles work in the New Reality. (I take it from the fact that no one has quoted it that no such essay is included in the T5 core book?)

I don't suppose there are any plans to publish such an essay any time soon?


Hans

I haven't seen anything as yet regarding the Nobility other than what was broached thus far Hans. As for whether or not there will be a revised nobility article, is open to speculation.

 

[Hal]

The one who issued the patents, namely Emperor Strephon himself is the sole judge for the competence of his nobles. While technically the Emperor can revoke a patent for any reason, tradition, the need for stability, and common sense dictate a prudent course and little interference for those patent holders who advance the Empire's interests.

The Empire is held together by men, not laws, by the personal honor, and enlightened self interests of her nobles. An Emperor who discards barons for unjust cause may end scaring the remaining nobles.

Ok, lets throw fresh wood on the fires of speculation here

You've mentioned that the Emperor can revoke a patent. Where did you find this in T5? While trying to find your reference, I stumbled over this reference on page 428 where it states in part:

"The Imperium assigns a representative to each mainworld; this imperial Noble interacts with the local government and population, serves as an ambassador, and promotes trade and commerce."

This is relatively "new" as best as I can figure when it comes to Traveller's roles in previous incarnations. This is unusual in the sense that we now have a purpose of sorts, for what our nobles are expected to do, or at least, our RANKING nobles (highest ranking noble on a world is probably the senior most representative on the world).

Then, as I do a search on Nobility in T5, I came across a reference to Nobility in the system of Regina, which lists the world has having a Baronet, a Baron, and a Viscount. This is located on page 430. The exact process of how to award nobility to worlds, seems to be based upon trade classifications, but the specifics of the assignments are not as yet discernible by myself.

In the end? It boils down to being careful not to present assumptions unless you can point to page X and say "this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm inferring".

At present, if the assumption is, that anyone can be stripped of their nobility - then those grounds for stripping someone of their nobility had best be clearly understood, and agreed upon. Elsewhere in the book, it states that Nobles have the power (more specifically, the MOOT) to dissolve the Empire. Imagine the fun that could be had, if the Emperor became capricious in how he handles the removal of nobility status, to the point where he is bound as much by customs as he is by law (customs in many instances, can be even worse shackles on one's power than actual laws, but this is not specified in T5 either way).

I should have gone to be about 2 hours ago, but once an idea starts to perculate through my mind, I sometimes have to follow it - even if I am feeling as though my mind were made of cotton! More to follow, to be sure!

 

[Reban]

I'm really enjoying both your contributions Hal and Drakon

One thought that came to me reading the responses, was the issue of a Baron losing his lands. In the event that the lands are not taken from the Baron for reasons of Treason, it doesn't track that the Baron's Heirs should lose the right to inherit the land itself. Can, for example, a Baron who commits Murder in England, lose his lands, or is the Baron sent to prison, and if necessary, his heirs take over the control of the land? It doesn't seem to me that "Incompetence" alone is sufficient grounds to deprive the heirs of their inheritance. If anything, one might wonder if Nobles can be forced to abdicate in favor of more "favored" heirs - but even that "path" is fraught with dangers and potential for abuse.

I think you've got the general ideas on this. Yes if a Baron was guilty of treason or murder an act of attainder could strip them of their noble status. Often the peerage involved ceases to exist and the lands revert to the Emperor or in some cases the title might revert to the father or older brother who holds a higher inherited title.

Nobles under Magna Carta have the right to trial by a jury of their peers. In practice this meant that they could request a trial at the bar of the House of Lords. Such trials took place with the executioner standing behind the accused in full view of the jury to remind them of the fate of a noble accused of a capital crime. Unsurprisingly convictions didn't always result

Yes Nobles should be able to abdicate in favor of an heir. Often in the modern period this is a gradual process with a Duke passing on some of his lesser titles to a son or daughter.

There are lots of cases of incompetent or insane peers (or inheritors under the age of majority). Usually what happens is the Lord Chancellor appoints commissioners to administer his or her affairs. The Court of Chancery was the court responsible for matter of inheritance and looked after the affairs of wards of court. The ward would be looked after by several people, often the mother, who was the Dowager peer, solicitors and stewards who could run things.

[EDIT] Titles can also go extinct if there are no heirs (as defined by the patent). Proving that you are the legitimate heir can be a long complicated process. I know a Baron in his 70's still waiting for his claim to be proved and it will probably still not be proved by the time his son inherits. The sovereign can issue a new peerage with the same title as an ancient or extinct one (which can be really confusing). There was also the practice of nominating an heir who was a distant cousin or nibling who agreed to take the surname of the holder to propagate the name if not the genetic line.

The one who issued the patents, namely Emperor Strephon himself is the sole judge for the competence of his nobles. While technically the Emperor can revoke a patent for any reason, tradition, the need for stability, and common sense dictate a prudent course and little interference for those patent holders who advance the Empire's interests.

The Empire is held together by men, not laws, by the personal honor, and enlightened self interests of her nobles. An Emperor who discards barons for unjust cause may end scaring the remaining nobles.

True and I wonder does the Emperor have a Court of Chancery to advise him or administer the process? In a Dark Imperium the Emperor can always send his agents to sterilize a peer that poses problems and pull the plug on all his clones, or "suggest" a marriage of alliance that brings a peerage into line with the Emperor's goals. There are always cousins who will side with the Emperor in the hope that should a title become vacant they would benefit.

You've mentioned that the Emperor can revoke a patent. Where did you find this in T5? While trying to find your reference, I stumbled over this reference on page 428 where it states in part:

"The Imperium assigns a representative to each mainworld; this imperial Noble interacts with the local government and population, serves as an ambassador, and promotes trade and commerce."

Revoking or destruction of a fief is a traditional power of the sovereign. BUT it gets harder and harder down through history and even an all powerful Emperor will have to follow a legal route, usually an Act of Attainder (or do it illegally and send in the Stormtroops and Death Star, of course that leads to rebellion by other nervous nobles).

This is relatively "new" as best as I can figure when it comes to Traveller's roles in previous incarnations. This is unusual in the sense that we now have a purpose of sorts, for what our nobles are expected to do, or at least, our RANKING nobles (highest ranking noble on a world is probably the senior most representative on the world).

Purely IMTU I've always had an "Imperial Commissioner" on Imperial worlds as a sort of internal ambassador. With T5 I'm now giving that post to the ranking Noble. Another way to think about it is that the Noble act like a Papal Nuncio in the Catholic Church. The Nuncio is a high ranking cleric that communicates the thoughts/will of the Holy See (i.e. the Pope) to the government of a country. Replace cleric with noble and Pope with Emperor and you have a good model because Nuncios are relatively removed from both the local church and the court of ambassadors.

Then, as I do a search on Nobility in T5, I came across a reference to Nobility in the system of Regina, which lists the world has having a Baronet, a Baron, and a Viscount. This is located on page 430. The exact process of how to award nobility to worlds, seems to be based upon trade classifications, but the specifics of the assignments are not as yet discernible by myself.

Whats to say they are three different people? Holding multiple titles is common for real life nobility eg. Charles, Baron Moore of Mooreplace, 12th Earl of Drogheda and 1st Marquis of Drogheda. or Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, Duke of Rothesay and Duke of Cornwall, RN(retd.). I've got those titles and orders of precedence mixed up but you get the idea.

They may well be separate people or one person holding three titles on one world or the Baronet may be the son of the Baron, who in turn is a cousin of the Viscount.

 

[Drakon]

You've mentioned that the Emperor can revoke a patent. Where did you find this in T5? While trying to find your reference, I stumbled over this reference on page 428 where it states in part:

I can't provide chapter and verse for this speculation. It makes sense to me, based on tradition and my understanding of aristocratic governments. There is scant offical information available, and rather than cursing the darkness, I endeavour to figure out the way this would have to work, in order to accomplish the purposes of the nobility in the 55th century.

I have to admit that this is new to me. It never occurred to me to play a noble, until the Kickstarter package arrived.

The Patents are issued by the Emperor. It makes sense that the Emperor has some mechanism for correcting power mad barons. The Empire is again, a rule of Men, not Laws. While laws exist to contraint the nobles, it seems likely that such laws include mechanisms for Imperial removal of barons and nobles. He's the Emperor for crying out loud and commands vaste beauracracic, as well as military resources to enforce his will.

And again, it would be very poor politics to willy nilly remove nobles for what are seen as unjust causes. In game terms, refs are not going to tell PCs "Hey, you are no longer a noble." without risking them, and other players, quitting.

Then, as I do a search on Nobility in T5, I came across a reference to Nobility in the system of Regina, which lists the world has having a Baronet, a Baron, and a Viscount. This is located on page 430. The exact process of how to award nobility to worlds, seems to be based upon trade classifications, but the specifics of the assignments are not as yet discernible by myself.

The more trade classes, the more prosperous the world is, the more trade, interstellar trade, comes out of that world. That makes the world of more interest to the Empire, and more in need of Imperial representation.

As I see the chart on 436, look at the TCs for the world. For each TC on the right, a noble on the left is created.

At present, if the assumption is, that anyone can be stripped of their nobility - then those grounds for stripping someone of their nobility had best be clearly understood, and agreed upon.

Rule 1, don't piss off the Emperor, I think that is a given. Seriously though I think it would have to be limited in practical fact if not written law, to things like high treason or gross incompetence. If you are a colonization baron and your colony dies in the first year, well, the Emperor may want you in another line of work. If your ambassadoral work with the Vegans result in an interstellar war, well, your barony is probably going away.

The idea behind a nobility is stability. The Emperor is not going to remove nobles without good cause, even though technically he needs none. Such events would be rare, and such that even you would go, "Well, obviously, the Emperor had no choice." Legally, the Emperor is the Law. Practically, it boils down to the local Dukes, Counts and Barons to interpret the Imperial Mandate as they understand it, as well as the local conditions.

The Emperor needs the nobility as much as the nobility needs the Emperor.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm not sure how much of the rulebook you've read so far, but the editing quality control needed, well, better quality control.

The chart on the same page shows the knight's fief is on the character's homeworld and the other fiefs can be anywhere. I believe that's the intent of the material.

I have read a fair amount of the book (I was one of the one's who got my book early), and I do not necessarily have a problem with your interpretion, but I am attempting to interpret the RAW, to the best of my ability. The way I stated it seems to be the interpration at face value, IMHO. But you could be right. I agree with yor statement "the knight's fief is on the character's homeworld and the other fiefs can be anywhere" (although others in different threads have suggested differently, at least over the last 2 months). But as written, each grant is independent, and the text says that first hex in any grant is on the Noble's Homeworld. Maybe it is an unintended implication from a poorly worded statement.

My question would be what do you think the "Where?" column in the Land Grants table on p.96 (and elsewhere) refers to in your view?

 

[Selandia]

...

Again, I find it very difficult to convince someone to build "improvements" on land they don't own, and have no ability to recoup their "investments" in the event someone decides it is time to take it away. Case in point. Suppose you have an investment that will eventually repay you with a 10% increase, but will take 20 years for that increase to come to fruition. How much time would be required for a 20 Million Credit investment to break even with a 2 Megacredit return per year after 20 years?

Contrast this against a "safe investment" that increases in value to the tune of roughly 2% per year for the same period of time.

Now for the fun part...
(see next post)

The actuarial computation is

First 20Mg + lost interest (had you put that money in a safe 2% interest investment for 20 years) that is capitalized according to the coumpound interest rule:
20x1.02power19= 30.3Mc as capital cost of the investment at the time of first return

Second, benefit received - benefit you could have made with a safe investment on the 30.3 Mcr:
(10% of 20 millions) - (2% of 30.3Mc) = 1.4Mc of Risk Reward on 30.3Mc of investment = 4.6% return = 21.8 years to recover the money if you do not put your yearly risk reward in a safe investment where it would generate its own 2%.

That is supposing you do not borrow that 20 Mcr

Well, need to go back to work

have fun

Selandia

 

[Hal]

The actuarial computation is

First 20Mg + lost interest (had you put that money in a safe 2% interest investment for 20 years) that is capitalized according to the coumpound interest rule:
20x1.02power19= 30.3Mc as capital cost of the investment at the time of first return

Second, benefit received - benefit you could have made with a safe investment on the 30.3 Mcr:
(10% of 20 millions) - (2% of 30.3Mc) = 1.4Mc of Risk Reward on 30.3Mc of investment = 4.6% return = 21.8 years to recover the money if you do not put your yearly risk reward in a safe investment where it would generate its own 2%.

That is supposing you do not borrow that 20 Mcr

Well, need to go back to work

have fun

Selandia

Thank you Selandia

 

[rancke]

The rate of return for a starship loan is a bit under 6%.



Hans

 

[Hal]

The rate of return for a starship loan is a bit under 6%.



Hans

True enough. Somehow, I suspect that the Rate of Return rules in T5 do not quite match all the other things, unless some would suggest that loans on starships are "safe" investment tools. In addition, the loan for the starships tend to be for 40 years, not 20.

I'll have to see what I can come up with as far as amortization tables for investment loans set at 20 years...

 

[aramis]

True enough. Somehow, I suspect that the Rate of Return rules in T5 do not quite match all the other things, unless some would suggest that loans on starships are "safe" investment tools. In addition, the loan for the starships tend to be for 40 years, not 20.

I'll have to see what I can come up with as far as amortization tables for investment loans set at 20 years...

Loans on starships are rather risky... credit card issuer level risky... which implies a much lower bank interest on account.