Noble Lands

[esampson]

...What if you have a player, whose status starts out as Gentleman (social status A) and the player wants to specify that his father is a Knight, and that he's the firstborn son eligible to inherit the land upon his father's death...

What if you have a player and the player wants to specify that his father is a rear admiral who stole a Dreadnaught class battleship, and that he's the firstborn son eligible to inherit the Dreadnaught upon his father's death?

You say 'No', unless you decide that such circumstances could be used to create an interesting story that you will enjoy running and that your players will enjoy playing. If a player does not receive some type of reward as a part of their character generation then they can't just grant it to themselves as part of their background. At least not without the Referee's consent.

If you have a player who really is insistent that for some reason they be the firstborn son of some landed noble you tell them that they have to understand that they will never inherit their father's lands. Perhaps their father simply does not die during the character's adventures (and if the player decides to knock off old Dad you can make that an adventure all in its own right with brothers and sisters who are scheming, Imperial Inspectors looking into the untimely death, etc.) Perhaps for some reason the father has chosen to bypass his eldest son in inheritance or perhaps the character has renounced his claim upon the land.

All of these are possibilities for dealing with such a situation but the biggest point is that the Referee is never obligated to give a player something which they haven't been awarded as part of CG, despite what they player wishes to claim.

 

[Drakon]

Nobility thoughts and questions

As a matter of practicality, it seems that Imperial titles and land grants would have to be inheritable, but subject to imperial approval. Obviously, as with any fifedom, the Emperor can take back the grant, and the title, at any time for any reason. The aristocracy serve at the pleasure of the Emperor.

Now the Emperor will find it proper policy to "rubber stamp" such inheritances as a general principle, but He still retains the power to revoke. Again, as a practicality, by the time a lord dies, and word gets back to the Core and back, several months have passed.

From a game perspective, it really boils down to whether the ref wants the players to have a steady income or not, or some other game reason for having an aristocrat. The titles are fun, but it is all just a game.

I have a couple of questions, and digging through the BBB is going slow.
1)The land income is 10,000 per trade class, and trade class is based on home world UPP. What about the off world hexes?

2)How many Terrain Hexes are on a planet of size 7?

 

[david.wendelken]

For what it is worth, I've been looking into the nobility issues myself with a keen eye. One thing I noted right off the bat, is the fact that Military personnel who have been in the Military, stand to make more money than do landed Knights. Take a look at the pensions and compare them against noble lands that are on worlds with trade classifications of "NONE" or one trade classification.

Then we get into the issue of the value of a proxy. In one instance, it states that the value of a proxy is about 10,000 credits. In other locations, the value of the proxy is listed as about 100,000 credits - or 10 times the amount listed elsewhere. But this is where I find it gets interesting...

"A Proxy is assignable to any other Noble of equal or greater rank. It is revocable at the end of any calendar year, and renews automatically if not revoked. A Noble who enters the Moot while in session automatically revokes his Proxy and may participate and vote in the deliberations of the Moot."

Question: What is the difference in "ranking" between a Landed Knight with a Fief, and a courtesy knight? More importantly - per the above, since only those with a social status above knighthood actually have votes at the Moot - what is the ranking system for those who hold land and those who do not? For instance, does a landless courtesy ranked Marquis outrank a landed (aka enfeofed) Baron?

In the end, it boils down to the fact that we do NOT have any actual guidelines as to what Nobles do in the Third Imperim per T5. More importantly? Look more closely at what it says about the income generated by the fiefs. It states on page 75:

"A Land Grant creates a token annual profit (the amount remaining after expenses are deducted from income), based on the trade classifications of the world, equal to Cr10,000
per TC."

Note that this is income after all expenses. One COULD argue the point that expenses such as maintaining a household could argued to have been deducted already - and hence, the income SHOULD be available on a year by year basis after the income is awarded. Likewise however, one could argue, that upon the death of the original holder of the fief - outstanding debts, medical expenses, etc - could have taken their toll upon the family estates until the player character is ready to assume control of his holding directly.

In the end, it should be noted that there are no guidelines on how many of any given noble exists within a given region. Were Marc to want that level of detail for his own Official Traveller Universe, he'd have to say just how many VOTES there are for the moot itself, then determine just how many of each class of proxies there are as votes within the Imperium (as given per page 96). Also? To answer someone else's question - per page 75, it states that any one who receives a land grant, retains it upon mustering out. So whether or not someone starts the game back at home administering to their estates, or is engaged in Noble pursuits - or is galavanting throughout the universe TRAVELLING, is immaterial. They retain their Grants.

Now, what if...

What if you have a player, whose status starts out as Gentleman (social status A) and the player wants to specify that his father is a Knight, and that he's the firstborn son eligible to inherit the land upon his father's death. There is NOTHING to prevent this from occurring in game play, especially if the player initially rolls a 10 for status at start of character generation. Or perhaps of even more interest - is the fact that perhaps the status of a character rose, not directly because of what his participation in life per se, but because his Father's professional life kept on reaching a point where he was knighted and given land for loyalty and duty above and beyond the call.

In short? Much of what is in the book (PDF that is, as I will be reciving my copy of the book sometime around June 27th) seems to be both more revealing and at the same time, more VAGUE. Perhaps Marc intended it this way so that in a Thrid Imperium where nobles run the government and have specific responsibilities - they get the land grants and all the other fun stuff that goes with it. In other universes, perhaps Nobles are vestigual elements akin to the Appendix. If they rupture, the entire empire runs the risk of dying...

The land grant gives CR 10,000 per Trade Classification PER HEX. A knight has two hexes, one on the main world and one on other worlds/satelites in the same system. So, if a world has 3 trade classifications, the knight has 10,000 * 3 * 2 or a yearly income of CR 60,000.

A Baronet has 2 hexes on a main world and another 2 on satelites/other worlds in the same system. A Baronet is also a knight, so he's already got that starting income of CR 60,000. If he's a baronet on the same world (for simplicity), he's got an additional income of 10,000 * 3 * 4 or CR 120,000, for a total of CR 180,000.

A Baron has an additional 8 hexes, and so forth. It starts to add up very quickly.

 

[david.wendelken]

T5 is set in a very different timeline than the other editions of Traveller. So it's perfectly reasonable to expect that society and the role of nobles has mutated over time.

Now, from the quick skimming of T5 I'm not sure exactly what it's morphed into...

Or, other than Gurps Traveller, exactly what it morphed from...

 

[Selandia]

I liked the nobility of T4. While T5 is a different system (and to make it clear the order of titles is changed) I think until we get T5 Nobles better explained I will use as much T4 as possible to plug the holes. The way MTU will work until further canon is: the land grant for the hexes you control is as much a responsibility as a benefit intended as payment for some official duties while the hexes you own are a reward that enter your partimony.

Of course, just stating my state of mind after reading you folks, no intention to canonize anything

have fun

Selandia

 

[Original_Carl]

1)The land income is 10,000 per trade class, and trade class is based on home world UPP. What about the off world hexes?

2)How many Terrain Hexes are on a planet of size 7?

1. Calculate income for both the home world and the non-home worlds. Income = 10,000 * TC_n per terrain hex. So if you have 4 terrain hexes in your grant (baronet, 2 home world, 2 non-home world), your home world has 3 TCs and the non-home world has 2 TCs, income would be (10,000 * 3 * 2) + (10,000 * 2 * 2) = 100,000. If you started in Noble as a Knight and were elevated up to, say Count, you would have a potentially very large annual income (p92).

2. Size 7: 492 world hexes * 75 terrain hexes per = 36,900 terrain hexes on a Size 7 world (pp445, 450, 464, 471).

 

[whulorigan]

Hex Allocation

I was originally under the impression that the first hex in any grant was on the character's homeworld, and that the remaining hexes were allocated relative to the character's homeworld (the "where" column on the Grants Table) based on the particular Noble Title. Having thought about this for a while, I think this may not be entirely correct (i.e. I think what is intended in T5 is slightly different, but not clearly stated).

I believe that there is a difference betwen the character's Homeworld, vs. what I will term the noble character's Fiefworld (i.e. the world with which the title is associated).

I think the first hex in any grant is on the character's Homeworld (the world which was designated as birthworld, or world where the character grew up during character generation - this world does not change), the remaining hexes are granted relative to the world upon which the specific fief/title is granted (i.e. the Fiefworld). Otherwise, the notes for the grants for Baronets and Barons do not make sense - the hexes are all allocated in "the same system", but are also said to be on Pa/Pr, or Ag/Ri worlds, respectively. So unless Baronies and Baronetcies are ONLY allocated to people born on Rich or Agro worlds, nobody else could ever receive a Barony or Baronetcy, since the homeworld would have to be an Agro or Rich World.

Rather, I think the intention is that a given title is associated with a particular world (the Fiefworld, determined by the preferred Trade Clasification for fiefs for the given noble rank), and that the "Where" column is relative to the Fiefworld (NOT the character's homeworld).

So, for example (let's ignore non-mainworld hexes for the moment), if I receive a Barony, it will be associated with a Rich or Agro world. The baron receives 4 mainworld hexes, the first of wich is on the character's HOMEWORLD, and the remaining three are randomly allocated hexes relative to the FIEFWORLD, which in this case, will all be in the same system as the FIEFWORLD (i.e. all 3 will be be on the Fiefworld itself).

Now let's suppose I am further elevated to Marquis (which is associated with a pre-industrial world). I now receive 8 mainworld hexes - the first of which will be on my character's HOMEWORLD, and the remaining 7 will be randomly allocated on various pre-indistrial worlds in the same subsector as my Marquisal FIEFWORLD (i.e. some on the fiefworld, and some on other pre-indistrial worlds in the same subsector).

As far as non-mainworld hexes go (1 associated with each mainworld hex in the same system), the TCs for the non-mainworld hexes would be specific to the TCs of the non-Mainworld itself - they will not necessarily be the same TCs as the mainworld. Note the table of TCs does have a section for "secondary" trade classifications specifically or non-mainworlds in a system.

I'll have only limited access to the internet for the next few days, but I would be interested in what others think anbout this. Am I totally out in left-field with this thought?

 

[david.wendelken]

I was originally under the impression that the first hex in any grant was on the character's homeworld, and that the remaining hexes were allocated relative to the character's homeworld (the "where" column on the Grants Table) based on the particular Noble Title. Having thought about this for a while, I think this may not be entirely correct (i.e. I think what is intended in T5 is slightly different, but not clearly stated).

I believe that there is a difference betwen the character's Homeworld, vs. what I will term the noble character's Fiefworld (i.e. the world with which the title is associated).

I think the first hex in any grant is on the character's Homeworld (the world which was designated as birthworld, or world where the character grew up during character generation - this world does not change), the remaining hexes are granted relative to the world upon which the specific fief/title is granted (i.e. the Fiefworld). Otherwise, the notes for the grants for Baronets and Barons do not make sense - the hexes are all allocated in "the same system", but are also said to be on Pa/Pr, or Ag/Ri worlds, respectively. So unless Baronies and Baronetcies are ONLY allocated to people born on Rich or Agro worlds, nobody else could ever receive a Barony or Baronetcy, since the homeworld would have to be an Agro or Rich World.

Rather, I think the intention is that a given title is associated with a particular world (the Fiefworld, determined by the preferred Trade Clasification for fiefs for the given noble rank), and that the "Where" column is relative to the Fiefworld (NOT the character's homeworld).

So, for example (let's ignore non-mainworld hexes for the moment), if I receive a Barony, it will be associated with a Rich or Agro world. The baron receives 4 mainworld hexes, the first of wich is on the character's HOMEWORLD, and the remaining three are randomly allocated hexes relative to the FIEFWORLD, which in this case, will all be in the same system as the FIEFWORLD (i.e. all 3 will be be on the Fiefworld itself).

Now let's suppose I am further elevated to Marquis (which is associated with a pre-industrial world). I now receive 8 mainworld hexes - the first of which will be on my character's HOMEWORLD, and the remaining 7 will be randomly allocated on various pre-indistrial worlds in the same subsector as my Marquisal FIEFWORLD (i.e. some on the fiefworld, and some on other pre-indistrial worlds in the same subsector).

As far as non-mainworld hexes go (1 associated with each mainworld hex in the same system), the TCs for the non-mainworld hexes would be specific to the TCs of the non-Mainworld itself - they will not necessarily be the same TCs as the mainworld. Note the table of TCs does have a section for "secondary" trade classifications specifically or non-mainworlds in a system.

I'll have only limited access to the internet for the next few days, but I would be interested in what others think anbout this. Am I totally out in left-field with this thought?

Respectfully, I disagree with your analysis.

A baron is a baron and a baronet and a knight and (one could argue) also a gentleman or lady. (Though examples given in the text only take the progression down to a knight level.)

The first estate hex is for being a knight. That would be on the character's home world.

The baronetcy would be where ever the Emperor wants it to be, which might be on the other side of the Imperium. It is an independent grant from that of the knight.

The barony would also be where ever the Emperor wants it to be, which might be anywhere else. It too is an independent grant.

If one believes that the progression goes down to that of gentleman/lady instead of to knight, then the homeworld hex would be from the rank of gentleman.

Personally, I'm taking the progression down to that of gentleman/lady.

 

[whulorigan]

Respectfully, I disagree with your analysis.

A baron is a baron and a baronet and a knight and (one could argue) also a gentleman or lady. (Though examples given in the text only take the progression down to a knight level.)

The first estate hex is for being a knight. That would be on the character's home world.

The baronetcy would be where ever the Emperor wants it to be, which might be on the other side of the Imperium. It is an independent grant from that of the knight.

The barony would also be where ever the Emperor wants it to be, which might be anywhere else. It too is an independent grant.

If one believes that the progression goes down to that of gentleman/lady instead of to knight, then the homeworld hex would be from the rank of gentleman.

Personally, I'm taking the progression down to that of gentleman/lady.

I agree with the majority of what you said (unless i am misunderstanding). Each grant is independent, and can be anywhere. That is my point. On p.96 of T5, however, the text concerning Noble grants says that the first hex in ANY grant is on the character's homeworld. But perhaps I am misunderstanding.

Also note that Homeworld is defined in T5 in CharGen, and has nothing to do with Noble Title (Gentleman or otherwise). It has to do with where the character was raised/grew up, and is fixed at the beginning of CharGen.

I raised the point because on other threads that have touched on this topic, it seems to be that what people have been suggesting is that the first hex in a grant (any grant) is on the homeworld, and the remainder of hexes are then allocated relative to the homeworld (which I think is wrong). But perhaps I have read something into what others are saying that they did not intend.

 

[Drakon]

1. Calculate income for both the home world and the non-home worlds. Income = 10,000 * TC_n per terrain hex. So if you have 4 terrain hexes in your grant (baronet, 2 home world, 2 non-home world), your home world has 3 TCs and the non-home world has 2 TCs, income would be (10,000 * 3 * 2) + (10,000 * 2 * 2) = 100,000. If you started in Noble as a Knight and were elevated up to, say Count, you would have a potentially very large annual income (p92).

Noble Land Grant Chart (p52)indicates to me that both of a Knight's hexes are on the same homeworld. Perhaps opposites sides or something but same world. So they would have the same TCs. Or am I reading it wrong?

For a Barony, 4 Home world hexes and 4 offworld hexes elsewhere in the same system. I am at a loss at how to figure out the TC of the off world hexes. Especially for Lemish which Travellermap tells me the system has no other planets besides a gas giant. (Moons of the Giant?).

Although technically the same planet is inside the same system, so one could take all 8 hexes on the homeworld. Or am I mistaken?

2. Size 7: 492 world hexes * 75 terrain hexes per = 36,900 terrain hexes on a Size 7 world (pp445, 450, 464, 471).

Thank you.

Okay, so the actual Barony itself is rather small compared to the entire planet.
And also there would be other holdings as Lemish is a subsector capital. I am not sure, but I think such a barony would be like being the mayor of Austin, with the larger government on the planet.

 

[Conspiracy]

Drakon look at page 492 of T5. It's for randomly rolling TC's for trade.
It also states that it can be used for Nobels and Scouts.

 

[cuTTer]

Drakon look at page 492 of T5. It's for randomly rolling TC's for trade.
It also states that it can be used for Nobels and Scouts.

There's a table for prizes?

Sweet.

 

[Drakon]

Drakon look at page 492 of T5. It's for randomly rolling TC's for trade.
It also states that it can be used for Nobels and Scouts.

This will do the trick. I would like to stay as canony as possible, and not sure how much informaton has already been generated about the Lemish system.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

This one of the most distinguishing and in my mind compelling features of Traveller. That is, you begin play with the character you wanted. In nearly every other RPG you start out with a broke-a$$ n00b who can barely swing a sword or casts only one spell or doesn't know a gauss gun from a meson projector. Nearly every computer RPG follows this trope, too. Start with a n00b and build him to 1337, usually by attacking and killing anything that moves.

Some people have a really hard time letting that go and seeing Traveller as unique in this regard: an opportunity to create the character you want at the START of play rather than creating the character you want as the RESULT of play.

I've had issues with my own players failing to make this quantum leap of understanding. They ask me questions like, "How do we level up?" (you don't) and "How can I increase my skill in X?" (take classes and study for a year). They're stuck in the mindset that their character at the start of play is a n00b and must gain stat and skill improvements as a direct result of play (kill-loot-level). "But I shot that guy and killed him! Don't I get XP?" (No.)

I tried presenting this as, "You have the opportunity to create the character you want at the start of play. You can make a young kid, fresh out of college, or a grizzled veteran of dozens of wars, or anything in-between. It's up to you." I have mixed results. Usually they accept it and then ask if they can have Psionics. o:

That was a not-so-brief aside.

I'd like to mention that if players have a problem with not inheriting land as a result of their high Soc, tell them to do one term as Noble. They'll get land, they'll get a muster out roll, they might even get elevated and get some more land. I'll go so far as to say that any character with a high Soc should absolutely take a term as Noble to get the land grants and proxies. Otherwise they're just leaving money on the table.

Not that a high Soc in itself isn't an asset -- it is, and especially when dealing with, well, anyone. That Soc is a big factor is getting answers to questions, getting requests fulfilled, etc. But not doing a term in Noble if you have a high Soc is, in my mind, a poor character creation decision.

The test characters I've made so far have ended up with high Soc as a result of the process (especially the military guys) and it struck me immediately that the first thing any character with Soc A or greater should do as their last term (or two) is Noble. There's really no downside, other than the +4 years.

I agree
My Players know that:
1. If the want land in MTU they must roll for it OR Roll play for it.
2. IF they are the first born of a Noble then whatever rank they obtain during Char Gen then their parents will be one above them.
3. To gain the land if their parents die (a game session must be played out in this scenario) then they will have to travel home to receive it (another game session will be involved for this scenario)
4. My players know they will have to play their characters they way they were created and generate stories to explain why they are they way they are as background history for use in future decision making.

Traveller for me has always been about playing the character you want from the start of the game. Getting more experience and training to increase the mods on the characters rolls is part of the game.
A Nobel character playing the part of a mercenary/bounty hunter/pirate/circus performer/ etc. would need to have a compelling story or no one will want to play with that character in the group.
Having a land grant means paying an administrator if the character is not going to do the job so that would drain some of their income.

 

[david.wendelken]

I agree
My Players know that:
1. If the want land in MTU they must roll for it OR Roll play for it.
2. IF they are the first born of a Noble then whatever rank they obtain during Char Gen then their parents will be one above them.
3. To gain the land if their parents die (a game session must be played out in this scenario) then they will have to travel home to receive it (another game session will be involved for this scenario)
4. My players know they will have to play their characters they way they were created and generate stories to explain why they are they way they are as background history for use in future decision making.

Traveller for me has always been about playing the character you want from the start of the game. Getting more experience and training to increase the mods on the characters rolls is part of the game.
A Nobel character playing the part of a mercenary/bounty hunter/pirate/circus performer/ etc. would need to have a compelling story or no one will want to play with that character in the group.
Having a land grant means paying an administrator if the character is not going to do the job so that would drain some of their income.

I would argue that income includes the administrator. That's how landed estates have worked pretty much thru history.

 

[david.wendelken]

Drakon look at page 492 of T5. It's for randomly rolling TC's for trade.
It also states that it can be used for Nobels and Scouts.

That's if you don't have the UWP data...

 

[david.wendelken]

I agree with the majority of what you said (unless i am misunderstanding). Each grant is independent, and can be anywhere. That is my point. On p.96 of T5, however, the text concerning Noble grants says that the first hex in ANY grant is on the character's homeworld. But perhaps I am misunderstanding.

I'm not sure how much of the rulebook you've read so far, but the editing quality control needed, well, better quality control.

The chart on the same page shows the knight's fief is on the character's homeworld and the other fiefs can be anywhere. I believe that's the intent of the material.

 

[david.wendelken]

Noble Land Grant Chart (p52)indicates to me that both of a Knight's hexes are on the same homeworld. Perhaps opposites sides or something but same world. So they would have the same TCs. Or am I reading it wrong?

For a Barony, 4 Home world hexes and 4 offworld hexes elsewhere in the same system. I am at a loss at how to figure out the TC of the off world hexes. Especially for Lemish which Travellermap tells me the system has no other planets besides a gas giant. (Moons of the Giant?).

Although technically the same planet is inside the same system, so one could take all 8 hexes on the homeworld. Or am I mistaken?

Thank you.

Okay, so the actual Barony itself is rather small compared to the entire planet.
And also there would be other holdings as Lemish is a subsector capital. I am not sure, but I think such a barony would be like being the mayor of Austin, with the larger government on the planet.

Re: the errata about the noble land grant chart on pg 96:

The leftmost column of numbers under the heading Hexes refers to non-mainworld hexes. The rightmost column under the same heading refers to mainworld hexes. So a knight has one hex on their home system's mainworld and one on some other satellite, planet, asteroid belt, etc.

The solar system creation rules show how to determine what other planets, etc., are in any given solar system. The rules also cover how to determine the UWP for each such planet, etc. Once you know the UWP, you can determine its trade classifications.

 

[Drakon]

Re: the errata about the noble land grant chart on pg 96:

The leftmost column of numbers under the heading Hexes refers to non-mainworld hexes. The rightmost column under the same heading refers to mainworld hexes. So a knight has one hex on their home system's mainworld and one on some other satellite, planet, asteroid belt, etc.

Right and the next column says where that second set of hexes are. For knights, it says homeworld, which seems to me to mean that the hex is on the same homeworld. (Although satellites of the homeworld make sense assuming homeworld has a sattellite) For a Baron and Baronet, the hexes hexes are in the same solar system. For Marquis and Counts, its the same subsector.

The solar system creation rules show how to determine what other planets, etc., are in any given solar system. The rules also cover how to determine the UWP for each such planet, etc. Once you know the UWP, you can determine its trade classifications.

Right, the question is how much canonically material is out there for Lemish, and what does it say? Once I collect as much intel as possible, I can work out what I need to map.

 

[Selandia]

I was originally under the impression that the first hex in any grant was on the character's homeworld, and that the remaining hexes were allocated relative to the character's homeworld (the "where" column on the Grants Table) based on the particular Noble Title. Having thought about this for a while, I think this may not be entirely correct (i.e. I think what is intended in T5 is slightly different, but not clearly stated).

I believe that there is a difference betwen the character's Homeworld, vs. what I will term the noble character's Fiefworld (i.e. the world with which the title is associated).

I think the first hex in any grant is on the character's Homeworld (the world which was designated as birthworld, or world where the character grew up during character generation - this world does not change), the remaining hexes are granted relative to the world upon which the specific fief/title is granted (i.e. the Fiefworld). Otherwise, the notes for the grants for Baronets and Barons do not make sense -
...
Rather, I think the intention is that a given title is associated with a particular world (the Fiefworld, determined by the preferred Trade Clasification for fiefs for the given noble rank), and that the "Where" column is relative to the Fiefworld (NOT the character's homeworld).
...
I'll have only limited access to the internet for the next few days, but I would be interested in what others think anbout this. Am I totally out in left-field with this thought?

Agree with you, that is how I read it. Game Universe background, Character and playability wise, it make sense.

It allows the Emperor to "deploy" the nobility where it is needed in a potentially expanding imperium. My homeworld Exmin is near the Core and my Fiefworld as Count of Rethe is in the Spinward Marche.

Although the other 31 hexes of the land grant can be on any world in the sector, including Rethe, I would be carefull not to spread them to much as a Referee. The problems of the Empire (distance) intended to be solved by distributing the power to the local nobility would otherwise be reproduced. I understand that developing a fief might be best done if you have already many hexes with many TC as revenues, but if just going there to check if my Estate Managers are not lying to me as to the state of affairs.

It allows for the economical clout and standing of the character to increase on its home world as its overall standing in the Empire increase. As Count of Rethe I would have 7 Hexes on my homeworld, making my local revenues there ( without any interplanetary banking operation) roughly comparable to those of a Marquis.

Have fun

Selandia