No more UWP

[robject]

The anachronistic UWP, UPP, and USP have been stricken from the current T5 draft rules. Their purpose as a compressed-data format for 70's print standards, cramped forms, and low-memory computers have outlived their usefulness, and so they will not be included in T5.

Just kidding. But I had to get your attention somehow.

Really Important Disclaimer. I don't make design decisions for any version of Traveller, and I'm mostly going off-the-cuff here with some thoughts that have been sinking in recently. Please take all of this with a grain of salt.

I like Traveller because it has design layers.

If you want a character designed in detail, you can do advanced chargen. In T5, if you want one quick, the draft rules have a point system -- albeit a primitive one.

If you want to quickly create a star system, you have only to generate the mainworld's UWP and GG presence. If you have free time or a computer, you can use Book 6 with Malenfant's rules to generate the whole shebang.

And we all know about Book 2 + High Guard + Fire, Fusion, and Steel.

It's time for Traveller to also have Diplomatic layers. If a D20 player picked up a copy of the Little Black Books these days, he'd run off screaming and never look back. Part of this reason is that the Traveller conventions themselves are not NEWBIE FRIENDLY. And I'm not talking about the LBB artwork here. That issue is covered -- rather well -- in another thread here in T5.

The game industry has options now that didn't exist in 1977. Competing games present data more redundantly to gamers -- precisely how human communication works.

So, in the tradition of Traveller's design principles, I propose a Diplomatic layer to slather on to T5:

1. Character statistics will be labelled (Str Dex End Int Edu Soc [Psi]), and will be in decimal numbers. The "hex string" UPP will exist in the Advanced layer.

2. World data will be in normal-human-readable format. World size will be in kilometers. Atmosphere pressure and composition will be in text. Hydrographics will be a percentage. Population will be population, not exponent + multiplier. Bases will be enumerated, using words. Trade codes will be expanded back to the LBB formats: "Agricultural world." instead of "Ag". Get the idea? Think GURPS, maybe.

3. Starship data... well actually, the USP didn't really 'take' for small ships, did it? So I suppose that won't change so much. Military ships may fall under the "Advanced" layer, and keep their USP. Maybe.

4. Extended system data and sector listings will be in text, with notes embedded in the listings where needed. This text format will be standardized to aid computer parsing, but NEVER at the expense of readability. The "Advanced" rules layer will allow the extended UWP and relatives, but they're no longer pushed as the standard, but rather as approximations.

 

[Morte]

Fine ideas. And only 15 years late!

 

[far-trader]

Yes, good ideas all. You're forgiven for the lurid luring I almost didn't bite but well, I HAD to know

In defense of the old starship design re your layer concept it was always supposed to be a two (or three) part format. The "paragraph description" and TAS Form 3, and later the added USP lines. So yes the options/layers idea fits well.

 

[kaladorn]

Two points:

I think charisma or comeliness should also be a stat. It should apply in a lot of interpersonal tasks. TNE did this, and that was a good idea.
That's tangential, but it makes sense to me.

Second point, if you do expanded systems, you're going to end up with some not-readable-by-amateurs stuff. When you start talking about the units for albedo or tectonic stress or who knows what, you'll be into some deep magic. I would also advocate staying with standard unit abbreviations rather than writing them out longhand.

Bonus point:
It's a pity the game can't become entirely metric. Furloughs per fortnight went out with the Pliestocene. I know we'll probably still get to see all the ratings based in Imperial measure (well, some of them anyway) but it might make system design easier to pick metric, stick with it, and include one page of units conversions somewhere, rather than constantly representing multiple values in tables for the same thing.

One extra bonus point:

There are still needs for short forms. If I buy something like 101 vehicles, if I can *easily* get what I need out of half a page (note the USP was an example of NOT easily getting what you need out of a code, unlike UWP or UPP), then let us not expand it into a page. I'm all for the basic rules being human readable without convolution. But at some point, it will become a cost and space issue in publishiing dead tree versions. There is where short forms still come in handy.

Step one more pace forward, and I'd like to add that all convoluted rules should have at least one reasonably complete (ie not the trivial case!) example documented in the rules. I include system generation, character generation, etc. And since the idea of an example is to shed light on some of the more tricky parts, then having trivial examples is nigh on pointless... the examples should cut cleanly through any potentially confusing parts, to act as a beacon of clarity and understanding.

 

[far-trader]

Yes, second the QUALITY examples motion. Vital imo.

 

[Michael Taylor]

"I think charisma or comeliness should also be a stat. It should apply in a lot of interpersonal tasks. TNE did this, and that was a good idea.
That's tangential, but it makes sense to me."

This was handled in CT with the carousing skill. ie: you can "train" people to be better with interpersonal skills. LOL

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by robject:
The anachronistic UWP, UPP, and USP have been stricken from the current T5 draft rules. Their purpose as a compressed-data format for 70's print standards, cramped forms, and low-memory computers have outlived their usefulness, and so they will not be included in T5.

<big snip>

1. Character statistics [...] will be in decimal numbers. [...]
2. World data will be in normal-human-readable format.[...]
4. Extended system data and sector listings will be in text [...]

In principle, I agree.

It is in the implementation that I see difficulties.

For PCs, go right ahead. I have no trouble with it, as it's already that way just about every other game.

For Starships, yeah, whatever. The format of the USP has never been that significant, because traditionally, the descriptive element below it has covered it all. Further, I never bothered to remember what all the slots meant, anyway. T20 uses a different format (and I never could make heads or tails of the MT format).

For worlds, UWP, etc. Well, it depends. I'm all for showing data in more human readable formats. Especially if we will use more accurate data (like actual atmospheric pressures and contents, actual oceanic contents, etc.). The problem comes with actually putting all this on a piece of paper. The Grand Survey/Grand Census forms were an entire page . . . each, and they contained many points of data compression. If we get detailed with fully human readable bits of info, A 200 Page atlas will wind up containing a single subsector. Oh yeah! I can see it now, a four level shelf five feet in length, all four levels covered by forty years of work on 320 subsector atlas books for the Imperium. Next forty years? Zhodani and Vargr space! Hmm, that'll be done around 2085! If we then went on a parodied version of the Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail, a sort of "Whipsnade's Quest for the Canon Authors," we would, at the end of the movie, come upon MWM, MJD, and LKW, all huddled up around a cookfire with a big black cauldron suspended above. They'd be chanting . . . "Curse them all, curse them all, curse them all," and, "Must stop errata," and, "No, no, it's all wrong, we can't have a 1.8 bar atmosphere on a world that is only 1200 km in diameter and with a mean density of .82!"

Anyway, I see a 100% fully textual description system for worlds as taking up too much space. Some elements do need to be written out and the hexadecimal system can be abandoned if we have to. But Ag, Ni, Hi, etc., are all really human-readable. We need to pick and chose what do as fully written-out in order to optimize the effort. Otherwise a newbie will look at the huge list of numbers and words and go into a game complexity coma.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
comeliness should also be a stat.

But whatever we do, let's not actually have the stat called that.

Personally, I'm not really a fan of the Physical Beauty or Appearance or whatever stat (but let's not call it that AD&D 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana expansion stat name).

 

[kaladorn]

Sorry, we could call it Beauty or Allure or Appearance if you prefer. I'm sure all have been used by something.

Whether we like it or not, both physical beauty and the less tangible aspects that make up charisma are heavily involved in our innate abilities to interact successfully.

Carousing skill doesn't cut it, because that doesn't capture the innate ability the way that a statistic does. And that is 'drinking in bars' and 'socially networking'. I'm taking about charisma as a modifier for leadership tasks, as a modifier for first reactions, for business deals, etc.

In the armed forces and in business, I've met dynamic leaders with Charisma. Some of them had no formalized training. I've met 18 year olds with charisma. I've met people with a lot of formal training who come off like cold (or dead) fish. It isn't all in the training, some amount of it is character, disposition, genetics, etc.

I mean, I can adopt whatever highbrow ethics I want, but on some level I too react to physical beauty (perhaps like a moth to a flame if history is any guideline...). It isn't *all* of charisma, but it is a part. It can be distracting. It can be entrancing. It can be hard to ignore. At the same time, being far to the other end of the spectrum can be distracting, disturbing, or hard to ignore.

I think the game should have one stat to allow some people to be naturals (for whatever reason) at interaction tasks and others to be bad at them, despite skills. Charisma is a good catch all name.

Social standing seems to cover two aspects in the game: Wealth and Nobility. These could easily be handled elsewhere. And high soc should be decoupled from Noble Titles (it only part was is in Traveller in most versions). You can have a rich heiress who is not a noble. You can be a knight and probably be poor. And Social Status does not denote social ability. That's where Charisma comes in.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:

For worlds, UWP, etc. Well, it depends. I'm all for showing data in more human readable formats. Especially if we will use more accurate data (like actual atmospheric pressures and contents, actual oceanic contents, etc.). The problem comes with actually putting all this on a piece of paper.

[...]

Anyway, I see a 100% fully textual description system for worlds as taking up too much space.

[...]

Yes, page space is an issue. However, please note that GURPS Traveller has been doing exactly this, and seems to be fine.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that more information be present; I'll be happy if we decouple from the UWP one-for-one (well, almost one-for-one; we can't help but gain some resolution just by converting to text).

I'm also suggesting that the Extended UWP be retained for when it might be useful -- sort of like the way we use the USP for High Guard but not for Book 2. However, if we can move to text, then the UWP stays exactly what it always was -- an approximation -- and the text becomes authoritative.

 

[robject]

Let me expand on that a little, because I just had a nifty idea. High Guard vs Book 2, plus a comment someone made earlier tonight, triggered the thought.

A nice text format is perfect for the mainworld. Take Regina (note that this stuff can be clomped into multiple columns or otherwise juggled around):

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
Mainworld:
Name: Regina
Type: Planet
Distance: 55 J
Starport: Top-quality starport
Size: 11200 km
Atmosphere: Dense, breathable
Hydrographics: 80%
Population: 100 million
Government: Impersonal Bureaucracy
Law Level: 9
TL: 10
Naval Base: #19
Scout Base: #200
Wealth: Rich
Political: Sector capital
Primary:
Name: Assiniboia
Type: Gas Giant
Distance: 1.5 AU
Size: 1.0 J
Star:
Name: Lusor
Type: Binary Star (F7 V, M0 D) </pre>[/QUOTE]It's nice because the mainworld is basic to Traveller, and mainworlds are consulted fairly often. Text is newbie friendly, and requires less brainwork for all.

But, the UWP is really useful when you're trying to show the entire system.

Note: this format is only a prototype. I've shifted data around already, and this is an old copy. Either way, this data is very similar to Stuart Ferris' system format, for the very good reason that I stole the framework for my own dark purposes.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Hex 1910:
Mainworld:
(insert mainworld data here)

System:
Lusor F7 V M0 D
0 Clement 0.1 Y100000-0
1 Ausun 0.3 Y300169-9 7
2 Burgund 0.7 SGG
Cent 3 Y400367-9 4
Thermidor 7 Y560000-0
3 Olybrius 1.0 F75022A-9 6
Alise 25 Y20016C-9 6
4 Assiniboia 1.5 LGG
Redes 3 F595269-9 Ag 5
Printemps 6 F20036C-A N 8
Brumaire 7 F564669-9 Ag 5
Harcourt 30 H43556C-A M RsA 1
* Regina 55 A788899-A A Ri Cp 1

Darida M6 V
0 Augur 0.1 YS00000-0
1 Kirunda 0.3 Y210000-0
Irkirka 8 YS00000-0
Arkurer 11 HS00137-9 7
Irgurkar 13 Y10046A-A 3
2 Elazair 0.7 SGG
Lashir 3 YS00000-0
Diuur Imar 8 G200269-9 4
Shamardae 9 Y500000-0
Arapan 20 Y200000-0
Edaku 50 Y210000-0
Gagamshir 125 F534328-A M 3</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by GrognardRobject:
Yes, page space is an issue. However, please note that GURPS Traveller has been doing exactly this, and seems to be fine.

I absolutely despise the GT World Info block (like that used in BTC). It's hideous. Looking at it makes my eyes hurt as I try to scan through the irregular presentation (I'm not joking or exagerating).

Originally posted by GrognardRobject :
However, if we can move to text, then the UWP stays exactly what it always was -- an approximation -- and the text becomes authoritative.

As long as whatever we come up with is better than the GT World Info block.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by GrognardRobject:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
Mainworld:
Name: Regina
Type: Planet
Distance: 55 J
Starport: Top-quality starport
Size: 11200 km
Atmosphere: Dense, breathable
Hydrographics: 80%
Population: 100 million
Government: Impersonal Bureaucracy
Law Level: 9
TL: 10
Naval Base: #19
Scout Base: #200
Wealth: Rich
Political: Sector capital
Primary:
Name: Assiniboia
Type: Gas Giant
Distance: 1.5 AU
Size: 1.0 J
Star:
Name: Lusor
Type: Binary Star (F7 V, M0 D) </pre>

[/quote]GrognardRobject,

You could only reasonably fit two of those on a page, and then the text would be a truly short thumbnail after. If only one appeared on a page, you could actually get some decent thoughts on a column and a half of text.

The big advantage of the Classic-UWP is that you can slam an entire subsector onto one page. Woo hoo!

As long as it's going to be that way, it should be full-column length, and contain a few more useful stats, like local resource availability, etc. (Oh, have I not been campaigning, most vociferously, for an entirely renewed Planet/Star generation system? No, that wouldn't be me . . .

)

 

[robject]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GrognardRobject:
Yes, page space is an issue. However, please note that GURPS Traveller has been doing exactly this, and seems to be fine.

I absolutely despise the GT World Info block (like that used in BTC). It's hideous. Looking at it makes my eyes hurt as I try to scan through the irregular presentation (I'm not joking or exagerating).

Originally posted by GrognardRobject :
However, if we can move to text, then the UWP stays exactly what it always was -- an approximation -- and the text becomes authoritative.

As long as whatever we come up with is better than the GT World Info block. </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, we'll give them an 'E' for Effort

 

[robject]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
GrognardRobject,

You could only reasonably fit two of those on a page, and then the text would be a truly short thumbnail after. If only one appeared on a page, you could actually get some decent thoughts on a column and a half of text.

The big advantage of the Classic-UWP is that you can slam an entire subsector onto one page. Woo hoo!

I think we all know the UWP is here to stay; it's simply too useful for a subsector overview. Just thinking out loud here.

Besides, UWP data for the entire Regina system doesn't fit into less than half a page either. A list of mainworlds is fine for a subsector, but sector files could have the entire system detailed.

 

[kafka47]

I personally would not mind seeing the UWP standardized.

What is the current standard and differences with MT. WBH & the TNE were great for their detail but for every system, I am not sure if more was left to the Ref.'s imagination.

This statement may surprise as I am an advocate of a revamped Atlas of the Imperium. But that is because, at least, as far as Chartered Space goes...I do believe in a mapped and documented system and the UWP recorded...however, nothing is more constant than change, so then allow Ref.'s complete freedom to muck around and change everything but size.

Out of interest, another quandry, how would a protostar system look if planets have not gelled.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by kafka47:
I personally would not mind seeing the UWP standardized.
[...]
Out of interest, another quandry, how would a protostar system look if planets have not gelled.

Not sure what standardization means really, but most of the systems need to be re-done with Malenfant's stellar gen system. 'Twould also be nice to comb over the UWPs, but that's Big Juju.

Protostar representation sounds pretty cool. I would assume that it's essentially a huge cloud, with nonuniform lumps of potential around the center of mass, right? So you'd need to map the centers, masses, and areas (to 1 standard deviation?) of local concentrations, as well as the center.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Out of interest, another quandry, how would a protostar system look if planets have not gelled.

Could be a some of those As (size 0) mainworld systems are that.

 

[Jeffr0]

UWP's would be more readable if the columns were labeled. A quick reference for decoding stuff could work well as a pull out chart or something.

(I end up penciling these in on every print out I make!)

Playable rules for using the map/UWP combination in Far-Trader/Imperium/Pocket Empires type games is the Holy Grail of space gaming in my book.

Playability Playability Playability.

I don't care about Economics, Physics, or Canon Inconsistencies.

All I care about is Playability and an air-tight set of human readable rules.

(My dream is to be able to move effortlessly from the strategic to the tactical to the character level and back again.)

 

[robject]

Economics is usually for solo players. Despite the in-depth look at trade by GURPS Traveller, it doesn't appear to have had much effect on the game background. Similarly physics. Inconsistencies are too bad, and someday someone will run a Perl filter through Known Space to hunt them down, but as you suggest, if the rules are garbage, UWPs don't matter.

Please say more about what you mean here:

Playable rules for using the map/UWP combination in Far-Trader/Imperium/Pocket Empires type games is the Holy Grail of space gaming in my book.