"No exploration left" vs. Known Space

[danejohnson]

I've frequently heard people complain about there being nowhere left to explore in the Imperium.

Clearly, the Imperium itself has a long history of settlement and it doesn't really have any "open" borders -- all borders are with other interstellar governments, diminishing the possibility of a true unexplored wilderness frontier.

However, it's quite clear that known space is really only around 100 sectors or so -- the Galaxy is really quite a bit larger. All of the other interstellar governments do have "open" borders. The Zhodani (and Solomani, if you believe DGP's "Cats and Rats") do have long range "wilderness" exploration efforts, and I find it hard to believe that the Hivers don't, or that Aslan ihatei and Vargr curiousity haven't resulted in exploration rimward and coreward, respectively.

The Imperium also conducts long distance exploration. According to Azhanti High Lightning two of the AHL's which entered Scout use ended up in Theta Borealis (one was captured by the Zhodani). There's no real reason those sorts of long range expeditions beyond the Imperial borders need to be stopped. Heck, why couldn't there be "joint" expeditions with scientific institutions in the Vargr Extents, with the Darrians, with the Aslan, or even with the Solomani or Zhodani during peacetime?

While Longbow is a clever idea, it's limited to speed of light observation. How hard would it be to take a smallish task force in disguised ships through the Extents to conduct more physical observations of the Zhodani en route? Or to set up listening posts closer to the action, cutting down the "information lag" by years?

Sort of related to the whole "long distance exploration" topic is "What is the extent of *settled* space?" We know there are people living in the "blank" spaces beyond the borders of all of the borders. How many? How far do they go?

There are named sectors three or four sectors Rimward of the Solomani Confederation border. Are they populated? I've seen UWPs for Theta Borealis on the web and it looked like none of the worlds have population statistics. Granted, it's a ways from the Imperial border, but are you going to tell me that nobody has been disgusted enough with "Imperial Decadence" to seek it out? It's many sectors from the edge of the Imperium, but it's quite close to the Zhodani Consulate. Are the Zhodani borders so controlled that they disallow any emigration?

Judging by The Traveller Adventure, the Spinward Marches were settled over a span of about 500 years. It was basically complete in about 500. It's now 1100+. Between 400 and 500 the Zhodani reached the area. The Sword Worlders and the Darrians were already there.

The Aslan found the trans-rift passage in -1104. That's 2000 years of potential expansion in the areas Spinward of the Imperium and Rimward of the Consulate. Considering the amount of time, I would expect the areas between the great rift, the Consulate, and the Imperium would be fairly well settled by now.

<Shrug>

Or am I all wet?

 

[GypsyComet]

Depends on your definition of "well settled".

Having seen a fair chunk of (sadly) unofficial data for the region, I'd say the Consulate has a cultural shadow that is about two sectors deep in some places, much thinner in others. Witness the Avalar Consulate stretching nearly a sector beyond the ZC's border, and having an effect on states further away than that. The states in Vanguard Reach also feel the shadow of the Zhodani.
As a result, the region between the ZC and the Great Rift is gradiated as far as multi-world polities are concerned. The closer you get to the Consulate, the more likely such states are, either as deterents against or stabilizers of Zhodani interests. Beyond that reach polities thin out considerably, then actual settled worlds thin out beyond that. I expect the Coreward edge of the Great Rift is a pretty lonely place once you get past the creeping Aslan colonies (and creep they do...). This part of the region (basically spin-rimward of the Beyond sector) is excellent exploration territory, since the settled systems start to get thin, no organized Survey work has been done on a large scale (though I frankly expect to find the IISS out here in some numbers), and some systems have not seen visitors closer than a decade apart EVER. Even the Droyne will be thin out here; if they'd been out here in greater numbers, we'd see more spacefaring races arising from the region...

 

[Jame]

Warning! Warning! Topic Resurrection!

Now, Known Space is basically everything in the same relative "plane" of the galaxy, right? Only a few parsecs up or down of, say Terra or Sylea? So why doesn't the Imperium expand "upwards" (above the plane of Known Space) or "downwards" (below the same)? There are surely more stars thataway!

 

[TKalbfus]

A 3D Imperium with all 11,000 stars would fit inside a sphere 66 parsecs in diameter.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Well, IMTU (as in most others) jumpspace is the key to interstellar exploration and travel.
To navigate my players softly towards the pretty Traveller 2D maps, I tell them that these maps are in fact Jump-Space maps.
Because of the funny physics of Jumpspace these maps could be presented quite flat.
Pseudo-technically spoken jumpspace-levels represent a projection of real-space to a space with a very compressed z-axis.
(An impression, which is mentioned in quite a few other posts....).

So, space exploration effectively goes into every direction, because nearly flat jumpspace offers a connection.

"My" jumpspace does not offer access to the whole z-axis of our galaxy, but only to a part of it.
Otherwise I would have a problem with too many systems per square-parsec because of the projection effect

At least, its fiction & fun.

Regards to every Traveller...

Mert
Owner of a Big Black Book

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Jame:
Now, Known Space is basically everything in the same relative "plane" of the galaxy, right? Only a few parsecs up or down of, say Terra or Sylea? So why doesn't the Imperium expand "upwards" (above the plane of Known Space) or "downwards" (below the same)? There are surely more stars thataway!

It's Charted Space, not Known Space. Known Space is Niven's future history universe. And the Traveller Universe is not identical to the Real Universe. There are no worlds to settle upwards or downwards from the plane of Charted Space. It's just one of those things that is so starkly unfathomable that to consider it is to go mad. So don't.


Hans

 

[mad13142000]

No Exploration left??!!!
There aren't even maps for HALF of the sectors that the Alien Modules name! Just because everyone hangs out in Spinward Marches, or the 3rd Imperium, doesn't mean that is all there is to Charted Space.
Come on over to us - The Astrographers of Traveller. Anytime you want to help out, I can find you several people and groups dedicated to mapping out sectors. There's the Zhodani Consulate - Bleblqansh, Driasera, Dalchie Jdatl, Chit Botshti, Bliardlie, Zhienh, Savria, Datsatl...The sectors leading from mapped areas up to Chtierabl. How about the Aslan? There are areas there that haven't been mapped. The Hive Federation - Centrax, just a few sectors from Terra has no map. The K'kree - everything Trailing of Extolian - just 1 Sector from Gateway Domain is unmapped...
Not to mention Rimward of Solomani, just 2 sectors from Terra, no maps exist... and that area may have existing dotmaps from DGP's S&A...
lots to do
lots to map...

-MADDog

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

More to the point, what's to coreward of the Vargr Extents (well, I guess that's vaguely covered by the Core Expeditions), what's to rimward of the Solomani Sphere (IIRC there are some famous stars and clusters thataway), what's to spinward of the Aslan Hierate (no clue), and what's to trailing of the Hivers and K'Kree? (no clue there either).

Up and down are pretty much out of the question, but I can't really figure out why the empires on the edge of Charted space don't expand outwards when they can easily do so. The Imperium's kinda stuck in the middle though, it can't really expand in any direction short of invading someone else's territory.

 

[mad13142000]

Coreward of the Vargr, there is at least one plotted domain. New Hope Sector. It lies directly coreward of Gzaekfueg Sector.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/caf/bte/bte.html
See? Even YOU can plot a cool setting, and not step on any canon...
Rimward of the Solomani lies an EVIL THING.

But since most of the Rimward exploration (ie General Turokan) went trailing as well, this is not generally known...The Great Rift keeps expanding, cutting off the Aslan to Spin, so you'd have to round up through Zhodani to find out more...
If someone would like to finish the planned but unmade DGP Alien Module #4 - K'kree and Hiver: The Exotic Races, maybe there would be a dotmap and info showing what is farther trailing, but since there wasn't...???? HIWG was working on it, but... http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~lguatney/Q-IV/Q-IV.html
My point was simply there is so much yet to do...

-MADDog

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Jame:
Warning! Warning! Topic Resurrection!

Now, Known Space is basically everything in the same relative "plane" of the galaxy, right? Only a few parsecs up or down of, say Terra or Sylea? So why doesn't the Imperium expand "upwards" (above the plane of Known Space) or "downwards" (below the same)? There are surely more stars thataway!

It's very difficult to represent a 3D map on a piece of paper. The original Traveller:2300 (later 2300AD), created a 3D starmap and used different size circles to represent how far above or below the artificial ecliptic of the map a particular star was, but at about 50ly radius, it was reaching it's limit in capability, providing a greater radius would have gradually begun stacking some stars on top of each other, blotting out the map's usefulness.

In Traveller, adding a "layer" of a single parsec in size above or below the current layer would create all sorts of chaos. Visually speaking, it is difficult for some people to envision making correct jumps from the -1 plane to the +1 plane just by looking at the maps and figuring in the 0 plane. By adding more planes above and below, things become more difficult. Further, adding those extra planes would add in titanic numbers of new planets and stars for, I think, little additional playability in the grand scope of things. Of course, while it make make local trade circles (within two or three parsecs) a lot more attractive for some worlds, the amount of detail added would be overwhelming. Consider the amount of work currently going into the new Gateway book coming out. I wonder how much longer it would take with up to -6 and +6 (one max distance jump) planes added in? And once you start adding in planes, you run into the question of why there aren't a full set of planes out to the top and bottom of the galactic disk (at least, the PCs could always complain of this while running around near or at a - or + barrier; assuming a GM ambtious enough to add even one plane above and below). I think the average thickness of the galactic disk is _roughly_ 2000ly, or about 300 or so parsecs above and below (avoiding figuring out just how far Sol is above/below the galactic ecliptic) the current Charted Space plane.
Further, adding these extra planes in would change the whole histroy of Charted Space in regards colonization and military action (or most of space-going history) as fixed jump routes were radically altered by new refueling points, not to mention the need to plot new x-boat routes, etc.

I just feel there are too many problems for me to bother adding more planes. YMMV, though.

 

[Jame]

Alright, so the Imperium _could_ fit in a 66-parsec sphere. AFAIK, though, it doesn't. Are there exploration plans by anyone in Charted Space (and thanks for the correction, I'm sure the tone was unintentional...) to sections "above" and "below" the settled portions, or is that unaddressed?

And RainofSteel, what is "YMMV"an acronym for?

 

[lightsenshi]

I've pointed this out before and I'll point it out again.

Due to the name of FTL technology, exploration is simply unfeasable. An FTL jump burns your entire complement of fuel. Should you land in a system where you can't refuel, you'll die due to the lack of life support long before you can make an STL trip back to a settled system.

 

[jrients]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
An FTL jump burns your entire complement of fuel.

Which version of Traveller do you play? I'm only familiar with CT and there are plenty of ships capable of 2 successive jumps without refueling. Its also possible to design such ships using both Book 2 and Book 5 systems.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Originally posted by Jame:
Alright, so the Imperium _could_ fit in a 66-parsec sphere. AFAIK, though, it doesn't. Are there exploration plans by anyone in Charted Space (and thanks for the correction, I'm sure the tone was unintentional...) to sections "above" and "below" the settled portions, or is that unaddressed?

And RainofSteel, what is "YMMV"an acronym for?

As far as I know it's unaddressed.
I've been fortunate in that my players are either not astrographers or are good at applying duct tape to their disbelief suspenders. The issue of the 'flat universe' has never come up in MTU.

Some common accronyms in use on this board.

YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary : ie This may not be as useful to you as it is(n't) to me. or you may have a different opinion.

OTU - Official Traveller Universe: What Marc Miller and his authorised agents say is cannon.

YTU/MTU - Your/My Traveller Universe: Where you/I may choose to differ from Marc and his agents when presenting Traveller to you/my players.

Haggis Shortage - A Garfism implying pleasure in everyone's freedom of choice in what they choose to like/dislike. Comes from a quote (whose source I curently can't remember) as follows:

"It's a good thing we don't all like the same things. Think of what a haggis shortage there would be."

Me I just treat the universe as flat and consider it largely unexplored.

At least at a ground level. Many planets in even the core sectors have less population than a small city. And these planets are usually part of entire SYSTEMS of worlds and other sattelites of stars. There may be little room for new Astrocartography in some of these places. But it's still an exciting time for the groundpounding scout/frontiersman/ranger IMO (whoops. In My Opinion)

but This thread is proof that there's no Haggis shortage in sight and Your Mileage May Vary

 

[ninthcouncil]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
An FTL jump burns your entire complement of fuel. Should you land in a system where you can't refuel, you'll die due to the lack of life support long before you can make an STL trip back to a settled system.

Ditto jrients: not true, you just need to carry additional fuel as "cargo". OK, this gets a problem with higher jump numbers, but up to J-3 it shouldn't be a problem. Furthermore, the technology of remote surveying in Traveller should be sufficient to tell whether the destination system has a gas giant from considerable distance away, which will assist with forward planning of exploratory missions. Hell, we can more or less do it now, given a bit of time. At higher TL's it's probably possible even to detect rockball planets, and tell whether they have any water.

In cases where there is a problem with lack of fuel availability, and the "hole" can't easily be outflanked, tankage facilities could be shipped out to "base camps" so that vessels can then progress. In fact, this can be done even when there isn't a system at all - but good astrogation is then essential, as you haven't got a stonking great gravity well to act as a landmark

Of course, the hazards aren't entirely overcome. Perhaps an exploration ship jumping into a remotely surveyed system finds that the fuel source promised them is inaccessible for some unexpected reason, which they have to circumvent... feel an adventure coming on?

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Jame:
Alright, so the Imperium _could_ fit in a 66-parsec sphere. AFAIK, though, it doesn't. Are there exploration plans by anyone in Charted Space (and thanks for the correction, I'm sure the tone was unintentional...) to sections "above" and "below" the settled portions, or is that unaddressed?

What tone? I sure hope I didn't offend you. I don't like to offend people unintentionally.

There are no exploration plans to sections above and below the settled portions because the sections above and below either do not exist or cannot be reached (Not even by SLT). If they existed and could be reached, the history of the Traveller universe would be vastly different than it is.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Just some related background as this topic veers into the whole "flat universe" area.

It is official that Jump space relates 1-1 with real space. A vector through Jump space follows exactly the same path as it would in real space, the difference being the time it takes.

With that in mind and the given fact that the Imperium is relatively flat the best explanation I've heard invented and then slightly modified for mtu is that the vertical thickness of the galactic disc is broken up into layers of Jump space, like a stack of discs. This and what follows are not canon. Apologies to the original author of the idea, I have lost the bookmark and notes and am not sure who to credit or where to point you all for the original ideas. I think it might be in the TML archives but last I checked the search function was still not working.

So while it is possible to enter Jump space and traverse it you are limited to the thin disc you happen to be born in. Only catastrophic misjumps have the energy to break the disc barrier. This is not a known fact. In fact most of the "destroyed" and "lost" ships resulting from misjumps end up in an alternate disc with no way of returning. This gives you an out if your PC's are unlucky enough to have it happen and you are kind enough to not just kill them all. They end up in a whole new area of space with no Imperium, or a very different one founded by other 'lost souls'. The Zhodani may be onto something with the core missions. The core could be an interchange between the different discs, opening up exploration of previously inaccessible space. Again this is not a known fact. There might be some more notes and old house rules relating to this but they are not at hand but this hopefully gives you one alternative to build on.

 

[kafka47]

I, too, would like to echo the Charted Space need be the same as explored space. There are still many parts of the world today that have been mapped but not explored. Here I am thinking the Ocean's depths or even the wastes of Anarcticia.

So we can picture the Imperium perhaps more akin to medievel maps. The important sites noted but many hidden areas. As there are very well established core areas but closer you get to the frontier the more wild things gets. To use an example from my latest trip. When I was up in Karelia, I ventured into the forest. Now, had I not been with a party (hunting mushrooms), I could have completely lost and essentially could walk for weeks and not come across anything. The vastness of space naturally is more expansive. Also, it is probably wrong to concieve the Imperium as a sphere as much as it is wrong to view it as a flat map. The exact shape of the Imperium could be a polygon or even irregular and consequential the distance to the frontier is great but when you get there it drops off into really un-Charted Space.

 

[ninthcouncil]

The 3-D vs 2-D debate is, I think, a red herring. I've always been happy to accept it as a game artefact without digging for an in-game explanation, and in my experience players are willing to take it on board in the same way. Very quickly it becomes transparent - you forget about it. Trying to explain it with technobabble just draws attention to the "problem". (IMHO/YMMV etc.)

Praxis, maybe: the salient fact is that 3-D mapping is a pain in the ass and I remain unconvinced that any realism gained by employing it is worth the trouble.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Jame:
Alright, so the Imperium _could_ fit in a 66-parsec sphere. AFAIK, though, it doesn't. Are there exploration plans by anyone in Charted Space (and thanks for the correction, I'm sure the tone was unintentional...) to sections "above" and "below" the settled portions, or is that unaddressed?

And RainofSteel, what is "YMMV"an acronym for?

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary, it's a standard internet chat channel (and email and list) abbreviation.