New thought about the course of Traveller

[Timerover51]

Having grown up with H. Beam Piper's "z'Srauff" from his book, Lone Star Planet, aka A Planet for Texans, I never had any problems with the Vargr. And back in the early 1900s, Howard Pyle has a set of stories where the main baddies was bipedal Foxes, that look a lot like Vargr. They tended to be a bit of a piratical sort, kind of like the Vargr. I will have to get out my photocopies and try to get one of Pyle's pictures up.

Hmm, first time I managed to put in an image. I regret the yellowing of the paper, as it is quite striking in black and white, but you do get the picture. And the book is actually from 1887. I thought that it was later.

 

[Dagrill]

I guess my comment is a bit flippant because Star Trek evolved heavily since the 1970's, it might have been a good way to describe CT in the past, but it's not anymore perhaps. I think it is more lazyness on my part than anything wrong with newer versions of Traveller perhaps. Vargr furry heads were always an embarassment and difficult to explain to potential players not from Perry Rodan era and it is something I and my friends at school always modified, that Vargr would have traits and some genes, rather than furry heads and fangs.

Hmm,
I think I saw the 3I as similar to the Fedearion.

I always liked the Vargr as a creation of a previous mysterious alien race, pity they block the route coreward and seem more interested in fighting humanity than pushing out.

Regards

David

 

[GypsyComet]

Was it the whole "dogs in space" thing that made it seem silly?

While aliens that are "a lot like" some terrestrial animal species have been a staple of SF from the Pulp days, a number of factors are now working against them being taken seriously.

-Literary SF is in decline compared to other media, removing that preponderance of old examples from the experience and expectations of newer (and younger) players.
-The "serious" representations that have appeared in video games or movies, for example, have not been all that well done. See Wing Commander.
-Movie special effects have advanced to the point where rubber suit aliens are no longer necessary, so examples of truly alien aliens are more common.
-The rise of the "Furry" sub-culture, and specifically its fetishist elements, has tainted the use of anthropomorphs in any other branch of fandom, including gaming. (Don't do an image search at work...) This includes pre-existing elements like the Vargr. There are examples that consciously avoid the sub-culture (Justifiers RPG, for example) but also some which tried and failed (Albedo) or which embrace it (Other Suns). Traveller has always held the Furries at arms length, but once you are aware they exist...

 

[rancke]

I really don't see any problem with anthropomorphic canines that are explicitly uplifted from canine stock. Just as much as I reject Aslan lion-men do I accept Vargr wolf-men (but not dog-men ). The difference is the origin story.


Hans

 

[Chuck Anumia]

MTU

I nearly always treated aliens in space as men with alien motivations (motivations difficult for humans to comprehend). They walk and talk different but act similar (as in, eating, sleeping, fighting, arguing their points, etc.)

 

[savage]

Chuck, Most Refs probably do the same thing.

We think "klingons" to a certain point. Traveller has brought a few races that won't think mentally like Humans, Hivers for example, and that is pretty nice.

 

[ShapeShifter]

doggies and kitties in spaaaaacccceeee!!!!

Hmm, that's curious. Was it the whole "dogs in space" thing that made it seem silly? I'd like to hear more.

The Aslan and Vargr are so laugh-out-loud preposterous that, given the fact that a 'doggy alien' is emblazoned unapologetically on the cover of the LBB reprint of 1-3, I have a problem with introducing new players to the game with it. When they look at the cover and the leather-jacket-wearing hound with his squirt-gun-like pistol at the ready, they give me the classic WTF look = o: I cannot help but look where, instead I should proudly show them a plain all-black cover in its fully atramental glory .

 

[savage]

The Aslan and Vargr are so laugh-out-loud preposterous that, ... I have a problem with introducing new players to the game with it. When they look at the cover and the leather-jacket-wearing hound with his squirt-gun-like pistol at the ready, ...

Didn't Marc go into a drawn out "just not right" discussion of the Vargr graphics at one time? I think the problem is how the artists have Terranized them instead of creating alien species.

Canine, Dolphin-like and Pouncer sentient life is not so far fetched compared to a 2D universe, antigrav, and jump drive. Really, the pictures have left a lot to be desired.

Newer artists are doing a bit better.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hmm, it's interesting. I never heard anyone voice any apprehension about the Vargr before this thread. My gut reaction is that they seem like the kind of thing where either you accept them, or you don't, and that's kind of the end of it.

Trying to think here ... being a dog lover, I have to say that I never found the idea laughable or otherwise "implausible" or a deal-breaker for any gaming group, but then again I never really understood why it would be.

I think the thing that might bother me from a "background" standpoint is this; of all the worlds that had sentient/sophont species, why did the ancient Droyne pick canines / lupine / canidaes for uplift? If we go for the more recent theory of how dogs evolved to co-exist with mankind (exclude the Russian experiment, for those in the know), then it would seem that the Droyne saw that the canine were far more sociable than a lot of other animals, and chose them for that purpose. The flip side of the coin is that they still have some wolf like instincts that grate with human empires that have to deal with them.

And that's how I always thought of them, and presented them to my groups.

The Aslan, on the other hand, ... eh, originally I put them out there as "feline" like, that came with learned contention behavior with Vargr; a-la cats and dogs to liven things up -- but later on I presented them as truly alien and "samurai" like.

I think there is something to be said for some writers trying to take shortcuts when inventing aliens; i.e. the Kzinti derived from tigers and what-not. And I guess there's that vibe coursing with the Vargr. But to me, the grey-wolf on the cover of alien module 3, is how I always saw the Vargr. Kind of dashing, noble, cunning, not so mercureal as described, but ... almost Viking-like in some ways, knightly in others, with a zest for life, and, like real dogs, weren't afraid to show appreciation, and were loyal.

Some of the aliens I thought that were laughable in Traveller were the talking Dinos from GURPS Traveller, or the "spider people" from T4.

Hmm, I guess what I'm saying is that I can see the disappointment with Vargr, but it never really occured to me to look on them as being silly and rediculous.

Oh well.

Does this need to be fixed?

 

[rancke]

I think the thing that might bother me from a "background" standpoint is this; of all the worlds that had sentient/sophont species, why did the ancient Droyne pick canines / lupine / canidaes for uplift?

Small aside: The Ancients were an offshoot of the Droyne, but they weren't Droyne any more.

The Ancients weren't much of a group either. One Ancient decided to pick Humans. Other Ancients decided they wanted Humans too. One Ancient decided to try something else and grabbed some ur-wolves.

I'm sure a lot of other Ancients did a lot of other transplanting and uplifting and experimenting that we just haven't heard about, either because no trace thereof survived to the Classic Era or because no Traveller author has gotten around to telling us.

IMTU I'm quite sure there are a few other Ancient-uplifted species around, most or all of them confined to their own homeworlds and not much known off them. I just haven't gotten around to establishing who (what?) and where. (Most of my work is in and around the Spinward Marches and if there's one thing the Spinward Marches does not need it is more minor races, neither human nor non-human).

Does this need to be fixed?

Not in my opinion.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The Aslan would be an easier sell if they WERE uplifted Lions. Most early fan descriptions of them boil down to "Samurai Cats"...

(which is, no offense to Phil, no sillier than the rather silly "Scots Engineer Cats" of FGU's Space Opera, the McPurr.)


Describing obvious lion-men as "only vaguely lion-like" ... and then, Mongoose making them even more obviously lion-men...

Vargr are "Gang Dogs." Both are recurrent themes in Sci-Fi, but the Gang Dogs are also common in fantasy lit, while the samurai cats are pretty mostly just sci-fi.

Add to that the late 90's "coming out" of fursuiters and the archetypical catgirl, and the Aslan are at a multiple acceptance Penalty.

 

[Timerover51]

If we go for the more recent theory of how dogs evolved to co-exist with mankind (exclude the Russian experiment, for those in the know), then it would seem that the Droyne saw that the canine were far more sociable than a lot of other animals, and chose them for that purpose. The flip side of the coin is that they still have some wolf like instincts that grate with human empires that have to deal with them.

That is pretty much how I viewed the Vargr, although, as indicated in a previous post, I really saw no problem with them. Wolves are social animals with an established pack order, intelligent, and trainable. However, the guys that I introduced to Traveller were also used to the original D&D and Advanced D&D, so they were already used to odd-looking intelligent species.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, if I had a beef with writer generated alien species, it's that a lot of authors seem to be limited by what they know -- so to speak; i.e. I think the thinking goes something like this; I don't really know what an alien will be like, so I'll pick something around here on Earth that isn't human, and say it's from outer space: Voila! Instant alien, or cat-aliens, or dog-aliens, or ... hell, I don't know ... jelly fish aliens.

It's a shortcut that I think a lot of sci-fi fans got irritated with, even back in the 1950s and what not, and now that there are tools and a better understanding of how speciation works, people may be more demanding.

Having said that, I'm okay with the Vargr, but like a lot of other people, I prefer my description that I assigned to them verse the gang-puppy vein which both CT and GURPS Traveller describes them as being.

I don't know. Maybe ShapeShifter's opinion is unique, and that Vargr are really accepted as a concept in all sci-fi?

I just never heard of anyone having issues with the Vargr. And, if it's more widespread than is being voiced, then maybe the Vargr need some tweakage to make them palatable for the new generation of players/fans.

I don't think so, either, but, well ... there it is.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That is pretty much how I viewed the Vargr, although, as indicated in a previous post, I really saw no problem with them. Wolves are social animals with an established pack order, intelligent, and trainable. However, the guys that I introduced to Traveller were also used to the original D&D and Advanced D&D, so they were already used to odd-looking intelligent species.

Interesting. So it might be like John says, a generational thing among players.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

not really, I'm in my mid 20's and i am perfectly at home with the idea or a uplifted dog. it's not, inheritly, any more stupid than a Klingon, or a Wookie, or a High Elf. i just file it away under the "willing suspension of disbelief" folder. i'm friends with a couple of gamers only just out of thier teens, and i know that they wouldn't find a Samurai Cat any more impossible than the Jump Drive.

what it sounds like is people reacting to old artwork they percive as "childish", and thinking the whole thing is kiddie fodder.

 

[GypsyComet]

Some of the aliens I thought that were laughable in Traveller were the talking Dinos from GURPS Traveller, or the "spider people" from T4.

The GURPS take on the Hkhar is less than thrilling, I agree.
T4 has spider people? Did I miss something?

 

[Dagrill]

However, the guys that I introduced to Traveller were also used to the original D&D and Advanced D&D, so they were already used to odd-looking intelligent species.

Same here, when you have a Gnoll and a Half-Ogre in the party Vargr and Aslan are fairly normal. One thing Traveller seems to be missing is a "Lizardman" type rce.

Regards

David

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

what about the Newts? form what (little) i know about them, they seem to fit the bill.

to be honest, a uplifted dog is actually easier to swallow than most Star trek Aliens, as the answer to "why does it look like a talking dog on two legs?" is that it IS a talking dog on two legs.

while "a wizard did it" is hardly scientifically plausible, it is more plausible than a alien that happens to look and act like a streotypical dog.

 

[coliver988]

Same here, when you have a Gnoll and a Half-Ogre in the party Vargr and Aslan are fairly normal. One thing Traveller seems to be missing is a "Lizardman" type rce.

Regards

David

GURPS Traveller had the Drakarans ("resemble man-sized one-eyed tyrannosaurs covered in beautiful jeweled armor that flashes in all colors of the spectrum")

And the Clotho, which are not mammals, but not lizard like either.

Alien Races 1

 

[mike wightman]

I would be very reluctant to include a lot of the GT alien races into the OTU - since they were actually designed for a different game and then ported across. Most of them are laughable, while one changes the setting completely (how do you spell goa'uld knock off).