N00b questions

[Fersboo]

Hi all. I'm new around here and pretty new to Traveller also. I created a few characters in MT, but my group quickly got distracted by Twilight 2000.

I've been looking at the T20 Lite instructions and the T5 alpha rules and have questions.

I'll start with one that I pondered driving home from the office today, how does money (credits) work? If information travels only as fast as the fastest transport between worlds, then banking would be extremely difficult for the Traveller, especially for large purchases or those whom wanted to not leave a trail. Are the credits also physical currency?

I'm trying to suspend my disbelief, but wondered how this was explained.

Much thanks in advance.

Fersboo

 

[hunter]

Yes there are physical credits available. Secure 'credit' cards and cash are usually the way it's handled.

 

[pendragonman]

I have a return question for you:

How was banking handled during the Age of Sail?

By letters of credit on the various banks, in specie, in kind, and in cash. With secure thumb drives, a cred stick can easily be a more portable way to handle large sums of cash or electronic letters of credit. Specie would be determined by what is the valuable commodity in YTU, and kind is, well, kind and cash is cash. So, in truth you don't really need to suspend your belief on this score any more than you do for Earth's own banking history.

 

[aramis]

One small issue: during the age of sail, Cash was specie. Almost without exception.

 

[pendragonman]

Incorrect. France and England had been using paper money for quite a while. In fact, the first pound notes were issued in 1797, the first Francs in 1795. Clearly within the golden age of sail. The issuance of paper money was done to decrease the amount of specie being lost to coinage. In fact, most of the larger denominations were only available in paper. Eventually, even the venerable Livre went to paper as specie became more scarce.

 

[Rover]

In the Middle ages the Knights Templar transfered large amounts of curancey with what amounted to bank draughts. With a little imagination this could play out in Traveller.

Non-warrior members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating many financial techniques that were an early form of banking...

...The Templars, though sworn to individual poverty, were given control of wealth beyond direct donations to their cause. A nobleman who was interested in participating in the Crusades might place all his assets under Templar management while he was gone. Accumulating wealth in this manner across Europe and the Outremer, the Order in 1150 began generating letters of credit for pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land: pilgrims deposited their valuables with a local Templar preceptory before embarking, received an encrypted document indicating the value of their deposit, then used that document upon arrival in the Holy Land to retrieve their funds. This innovative arrangement may have been the first formal chequing system; it both improved the safety of pilgrims by making them less attractive targets for thieves, and further contributed to the Templar coffers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

 

[pendragonman]

While Rover cites a wiki for his confirmation, he is correct. That would be the letters of credit mentioned before. It was the Templars that began "modern" banjing practices in Europe. Unfortunately, it is also those practices that made Philip le Bel envious (on top of being hugely indebted to the Templars) which caused him to force Clement V to bring down the Order. Hence, the origins of the Friday the 13th myths.

 

[Jame]

I still say that one of these newb threads should be stickied, and the rest consolidated with it.

Or deleted.

 

[Fersboo]

I have a return question for you:

How was banking handled during the Age of Sail?

By letters of credit on the various banks, in specie, in kind, and in cash. With secure thumb drives, a cred stick can easily be a more portable way to handle large sums of cash or electronic letters of credit. Specie would be determined by what is the valuable commodity in YTU, and kind is, well, kind and cash is cash. So, in truth you don't really need to suspend your belief on this score any more than you do for Earth's own banking history.

Well, I am thinking along these lines, however there were only a handful of nations, with only a handful (at best) cities that would have the banks (I am assuming here) whereas there are thousands upon thousands of worlds in the Traveller universe. I would think that the logitistics of letters of credit would be immense.

I arrive downport and walk into Planet X's main branch and present a bank draft from Planet Y's 1st National Savings & Trust for $1M. PY1NS&T is a minimum of 120 weeks away in a Jump-6 capable starship. If I'm a bank manager, I don't know if there really is a PY1NS&T, and would be hesitant to honor the draft.

At least with currency being material as well with credit, I can imagine someone that doesn't want to be found/followed can move around with money.

Thanks again for the answers. I did end up buying the T20 set today and probably will start asking more questions. I'll try to keep them in this thread so as not to add too much clutter to this forum (I did search but none of the 1st 50 hits were even somehow related to my question).

 

[Rover]

While Rover cites a wiki for his confirmation, he is correct.

So glad you approve.

 

[hunter]

Ok both comments are really unnecessary.

 

[Straybow]

Well, I am thinking along these lines, however there were only a handful of nations, with only a handful (at best) cities that would have the banks (I am assuming here) whereas there are thousands upon thousands of worlds in the Traveller universe. I would think that the logitistics of letters of credit would be immense.

I arrive downport and walk into Planet X's main branch and present a bank draft from Planet Y's 1st National Savings & Trust for $1M. PY1NS&T is a minimum of 120 weeks away in a Jump-6 capable starship. If I'm a bank manager, I don't know if there really is a PY1NS&T, and would be hesitant to honor the draft.

At least with currency being material as well with credit, I can imagine someone that doesn't want to be found/followed can move around with money.

Well, you'd have stopped off a hundred and twenty (or several hundred) times between Y and X, and if you didn't change over to multi-sector-wide banking corporations along the way you're a damned fool.

 

[aramis]

The late 1700's are the end of the age of sail. The steam era begins in the 1830's... Really, it's the Napoleonic era's feature to introduce paper currencies.

Likewise, in agreement with other posters, a draft note is only good when there is a reasonable knowledge of the formats of the document, trust in the document itself, and ability to reasonably recover the draft in a timely manner. Possibly with hefty fees, even then.

A Bank draft for more than a few thousand credits is unlikely to be redeemable unless it's from a jump or two away. You're more likely to be able to cash it at the scout mail office than the local banks...

Current e-currencies work because of instant communication; one can verify the funds (or credit) availablity within minutes. Moreover, from the merchant's point of view, the card itself is one of two (or three) checks on the validity; the computer connection is the second, and the signature (in the cautious cases) a third; some still require a picture ID as well, and many require a pin instead of signature. All things that are impeded strongly in Traveller... due to comm lags.

When characters operate on a major route, many times players will have a bank account on one or more "main points" on their route. They keep a significant reserve (A month's op expenses or more) when they can every 3-4 parsecs. They can x-mail the request and x-mail receive the money wihtin 3 weeks that way, since X-mail off-route is weekly by type S. For a Type A or R, it's often worth it to put windfalls into a "remote" bank for auto-payment on mortgage. Of course, it's also common for them to have a million or two in cash on the ship.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Note: 3I = Third Imperium

IIRC Traveller money was described as being made from special plastic composites that where considered fake-proof. The resulting money (both coins and notes) was relatively thick and stiff. So the currency is not valuable due to material but due to being fake-proof and the trust in the 3I.

For conversion rates between valuabes and credits there is a set in Hard Times (for Megatraveller). With the 3I basically dead by 1126 cash reverts to valuabel metals with a value set based on an 1116 credit.

Letters of Credit in History worked on some concepts:

a) Trustworthy persons on both ends

This is how many of the great banking empires where started. You payed your money at the person on one end (say Fuggerbank, London) and got a sealed letter of credit. Than you travelled all the way to India, went to the representative there (say Fuggerbank, Kalkutta) and again presented your letter and got your money (minus a fee). Worked because the guy accepted the seal/signature and it wasn't easy to fake them.(1).

An early system (using Jewish traders) can be seen in action in Ivanhoe (at least the 1950s movie with Robert Taylor). Also look up Hawala or Hundi for a modern day system


b) Resonable equal flow of values

The system needs to be balanced. The early systems worked by equal flow of money orders in both directions. Other systems required the occasional shipment of money.

c) Reasonably fake-proof orders

The money orders must be difficult to fake

d) Gentleman traders

Back in that times class differences (including clothing, behaviour and speech) where greater and apprenticeship was often inter-family. So posing as a trader wasn't as easy. At the same time the Trader "Families" knew each other and used one another as a reference person, including letters of introduction. This could be adapted for Traveller. Read i.e the biographies of Drake or Rawleigh (both started as traders)

e) It's a small group

Same as in Traveller. Most ships work either as part of the big lines (Tukera, Oberlindes) or they work among a few worlds. The 3I spanning travel by a non-megacorp frighter is rather rare and normally done by nobles (And nobles use the Gentleman system above). So a trader ship is likely known in its Area of Operations


(1) And because the Bankers would send the authorities (and some hired Goons) after you when you faked a letter.

 

[avi.hecht]

Current e-currencies work because of instant communication; one can verify the funds (or credit) availablity within minutes. Moreover, from the merchant's point of view, the card itself is one of two (or three) checks on the validity; the computer connection is the second, and the signature (in the cautious cases) a third; some still require a picture ID as well, and many require a pin instead of signature. All things that are impeded strongly in Traveller... due to comm lags.

Just a small nit-pick what Aramis describes is not 'really' e-currencies but credit transactions.

'Real' (TM ) e-cash transactions are done by authenticated transactions (authentication as in encryption) with public-key infrastructure. In a processes like that the Public-key of the issuing bank is published - so all interested parties can have a copy; When a Token arrives its value is verified - to see that it was not tampered then it can be cashed locally.

Some system can operate completely of line and still be "secure between updates" (this is a vague term on purpose - how secure you want it versus how often you go on-line)

I would imagine that in traveller the imperial mail system supports this infrastructure as it is in the interest of the Imperium to support trade.
This will involve:
A. Transmition of Imperial Public Key (IPK) - a ridiculously long key.
B. Local Imperial trade office - signing the public key of Local-Small-Bank (now we have pkLSB)
C. Signed pkLSB sent out into the Imperium.
D. Local trader getting cash token at LSB and going several parsecs away.
E. Remote-Bank (that verified pkLSB) checking token is not tampered and then issuing cash against it.
F. Remote-Bank sending Token back to LSB and getting credits in return.
OR
F. First Imperial Bank used as clearing house.

(This real works at several schools in the UK - shame on me for bringing real life work into the game...)

This was the short version - happy to answer question....

Avi

 

[Valarian]

Personal account details held on your credit chip, which is secure and biometrics used to ensure that only you can use it. Lost credit chips could take several weeks (or even months) to replace as the local bank checks with your home branch and sends your biometrics to the nearest world capable of manufacturing (and licensed to manufacture) a new credit chip.

Monetary balances could be transmitted between banks using the X-Boat network. The Imperium Central Bank on Capital would act as the central clearing house for the sectors. Each sector capital would have major clearing houses for it's subsectors. Subsector capitals would have minor clearing houses for the worlds in the subsector. The branches on the worlds would tally their daily (or weekly differences) and transmit this to the local clearing house.

 

[Gadrin]

Yes, I'd have to think it's a secure enough system (banking by that method) to be able to implement. Details are left up the GMs.

It's certainly not just a letter anyone can produce that says: give me money.

I think GURPS Far Trader touches on some of this, but not in great detail. Again, that's left up to the GM for YTU.

 

[pendragonman]

Aramis,

Check your historical record. The major schools of historical scholarship all claim the latter half of the 18th century and the first 8 decades of the 19th century to be the golden age of sail. While steam power was introduced in the 1830's, steam did not become the sole source of motivation until the advent of ironclads and the conversion of navies to ironclad construction. Even after that, windjammers such as the Cutty Sark dominated trade until the early 20th century, and dual powered steam/sail ships continued trade traffic into WWI.

True, most of the historical record for sail is before this time, but most of the vessels before this time did not have optimal sailing qualities. The golden age vessels combined the best sailing characteristics with optimal cargo capacity. In fact, the British opening of China (Opium Wars, 1830s and 40's) was handled by Ships of the Line, not by steam ships (stink pots). Even the American Civil War was fought by dual powered vessels, showing clearly that sail was not gone altogether in warships. Trade vessels, which are always the vast majority of vessels out there, maintained sail as it was far less expensive than coal, and up until the latter half of the 19th century when screw technology replaced the paddle wheel, just as fast.

 

[Berg]

...it's also common for them to have a million or two in cash on the ship.

No there's an adventure plot! :devil:

 

[aramis]

Berg:

In the lack of speedy EFT and Credit Cards given the time lags, cash or specie become the dominant mode of paying the bills.

A couple million on board is typical of just about ANY freighter on route... it's not in itself an adventure seed.

It's also the first thing a Pirate will go for...

Keep in mind that loading with cargo a Type A using Bk7 is half a million credits; a Type R is close to a million.

Since specie takes far more space (and mass), Cash, in the locker, is the defacto standard.

Also, op cash for either is in excess of KCr100/month.

So in a cash economy, merchant ships will have lots... hence the propensity for lots of guns, too.