MT Only: MT Referee's Manual Craft Design Accommodations

[snrdg082102]

Evening from the Pacific Northwest,

Page 82: Step 7 Frozen Watch has me confused based on the text on page 60 which I think means that the frozen watch must hold one full crew segment/section plus 50 percent of the required pilots. The number of personnel and number of segments are determined in Step 8.

Step 7 Frozen Watch uses this equation: Cf = Z/H
Z = the total crew without the medical crew
H = Hull UCP displacement/1000.

A hull UCP of 75,000/1,000 = 75
The hull requires a crew of 329 personnel of which 17 are medical crews

Cf = (329 - 17)/(75,000/1,000) = 312/75 = 4.16

What do I use the 4.17 on since the frozen watch must include 1 crew segment/section?

 

[jcrocker]

Going by the numbers doesn't seem to make much sense, you're right.

If I'm reading the rules right, according to the numbers, each 'frozen watch' section on that ship consists of four people. I'm going to drop the fraction.

Just four people doesn't seem like it would be much help if a big chunk of the 329 crew were killed. You could have more than one section of course - or just pick a number for the total frozen watch.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Frozen watch ≈ Crew segment.

Crew segment is crew per (Hull / 1000 Dt, rounded up), rounded up.
Frozen watch (Cf) is crew without medics per (Hull / 1000 Dt).

The segment calculation differs a little from the frozen watch Cf calculation, but that is rarely a problem.
E.g. a ship of 16200 m³ (1200 Dt) with a crew of 45 has a segment of 45 / 2 = 22.5 rounded to 23, and a Cf = 45/1.2 = 37.5 presumably rounded to 38. A frozen watch Cf = 38 is bigger than segment = 23 so all rules are fulfilled.
The difference is probably unintended?


To be completely correct we should probably calculate both values and use the larger to comply with both p60 and p82. I will stick with the Cf calculation only.


So the Regal with 329 crew and a 75 kDt hull has a Cf of 4.16 as you noted, and a segment of 329/75 = 4.38, rounded to 5. Crew segments are rounded up as per p82, section 8.
Either way you need at least 5 frozen watch crew members to replace a crew hit, since we can only thaw whole people, not fractional people.

The design example has chosen 75 frozen watches, to be able to replace the entire crew. The design example uses a segment of 4 which seems to be wrong.



Note that we have no specific Pilot requirement in MT, but if we go by CT TCS (where this comes from) a 70 kDt ship requires three Pilots, and each 50% of the crew frozen requires half that so two Pilots.

By MT RAW (p60) each 5 person frozen watch must contain 2 Pilots. The bridge must be a dangerous place in combat...

A little more reasonably we can house rule this to that the frozen watch must contain the same proportion of Pilots as the full crew, but at least half the total requirement.
E.g. if we have 10 frozen watches of 5 crew each, we would need 2 Pilots. If we have 75 frozen watches (a full crew) we need 3 Pilots.
This house rule has no effect on the design or number of required low berths.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning from the Pacific Northwest jcrocker,

Going by the numbers doesn't seem to make much sense, you're right.

If I'm reading the rules right, according to the numbers, each 'frozen watch' section on that ship consists of four people. I'm going to drop the fraction.

Just four people doesn't seem like it would be much help if a big chunk of the 329 crew were killed. You could have more than one section of course - or just pick a number for the total frozen watch.

Thank you for the reply and confirming that I was not missing something with the formula. CT LBB 5 HG2 is much easier to understand requiring 50 percentage overage of the crew, including ship's troops.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Thank you for explaining how to determine the size of the frozen watch.

The Quote button did not quote your reply. I believe, since I've had the same issue with my posts, that by inserting symbols using Character Map or copying and pasting from other sources somehow breaks the quote function.

Frozen Watch is approximately equal to Crew Segments.

Based on the material on MT Referee's Manual on page 60 I agree that the frozen watch is approximately equal to a crew segment because of including the need for "...50% of the ship's required pilots...."

There, as far as I can determine, no directions/instructions on how to determine a "ship's required pilots." In CT Little Black Book 5 High Guard 2nd edition LBB 5 HG2) the pilots are subsumed in the calculations for, I believe, in the Command section. In MT my guess is that the pilots are subsumed in the Bridge Crew calculation.

As you indicate later CT Adventure Trillion Credit Squadron (TCS) does provide instructions on a ship's pilot requirements.

Crew segment is crew per (Hull / 1,000 Dt, rounded up), rounded up.

MT Referee's Manual page 82 8 Crew Segments corrected by MT Consolidated Errata page 38: Page 82, Step 8, Crew Segments (Correction): "Divide the crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat a fractional hull segment as a full segment. For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200-kl ship divides into 23-person segments."

My guess is that the total crew includes the medical crew since there are no instructions indicating they are excluded.

The equation I get from the text is:

Crew Segments = (Hull Volume kl / 13,500 kl, rounded up)
Personnel in one segment = Total Crew (includes medical crew) / Crew segments, rounded up)

Segments = 16,200 / 13,500 = 1.2 rounded up to 2
The total crew of 45, which probably includes the medical crew, divided by 2 crew segments = 22.5 rounded up = 23 personnel per segment.

My understanding of Step 8 agrees with the result of the calculation you provided.

Frozen watch (Cf) is crew without medics per (Hull/1,000 Dt)

MT Referee's Manual page 82 Frozen Watch (Cf)

Cf = Z/H
Z = Total Crew Count (not including medical crew)
H = Hull Displacement Tonnage divided by 1,000 (if less than 1, treat as 1).
If Cf low (not emergency low) berths are present, the ship can carry a frozen watch.

In the example from Step 8 the 45-person crew probably includes the medical crew in determining the number of crew segments and the personnel per segment. Which means we do not know what the crew size is without the medical crew and cannot determine the value of Z in the frozen watch calculation.

We can determine the value for H in Step 8: 16,200 kl / 13.5 kl = 1,200 Dt / 1000 = 1.2.

At this point we disagree on the value of Z, but do agree that the value for H is 1.2.

However in the edited MT Starship Design Example of the Regal the total crew = 329 of which 17 are the medical crew. The Cf value of Z = 329 -17 = 312. The H value = 75,000/1,000 = 75.

Cf = 312 / 75 = 4.16

There are no clearly stated direction on rounding a fractional result, however the instructions for maintenance crew to stewards and medical crew drop fractions. Based on the other seven crew types the fraction is dropped resulting in a Cf = 4. Of course if one follows the directions for the Bridge Crew, Engineering Crew, and Step 8 Cf = 5.

Step 8: Crew Segment:
Personnel per segment 1,012,500 / 13,500 = 75
Crew Segments = 329 /75 = 4.387 roundup = 5.

The Regal's underway watch bill has 5 segments of 75 personnel

MT Referee's Manual p. 60 as noted requires the frozen watch to have a minimum of 1 full crew segment of, in the case of the Regal, 75 personnel.

Referencing TCS and the Pilot requirements is something I did not think about so thank you for the solution. I'll have to ponder the suggested numbers a bit, not to mention I'm running late for an appointment.

 

[McPerth]

See that it has some logics that the FW is organized by crew segments, as is how you take losses , so being ideal for replacement of your crew as it is being lost.

The need for 50% of your pilots, OTOH, is not as logical, as pilots are few for the ship, and if you lose the ones for your small crafts, you have probably also lost the crafts themselves, so those pilots are quite useless...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

MT Referee's Manual page 82 8 Crew Segments corrected by MT Consolidated Errata page 38: Page 82, Step 8, Crew Segments (Correction):
"Divide the crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat a fractional hull segment as a full segment. For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200-kl ship divides into 23-person segments."
...
The equation I get from the text is:

Crew Segments = (Hull Volume kl / 13,500 kl, rounded up)
Personnel in one segment = Total Crew (includes medical crew) / Crew segments, rounded up)
...
Step 8: Crew Segment:
Personnel per segment 1,012,500 / 13,500 = 75
Crew Segments = 329 /75 = 4.387 roundup = 5.

The Regal's underway watch bill has 5 segments of 75 personnel

You reversed segments and crew / segment for the Regal. It's 75 segments of 5 crew each.

In the example from Step 8 the 45-person crew probably includes the medical crew in determining the number of crew segments and the personnel per segment. Which means we do not know what the crew size is without the medical crew and cannot determine the value of Z in the frozen watch calculation.

Agreed, we don't how many medics are included in the crew, but we can guess. Since "Cd = (Z/120)+(Cl/20) (drop fractions)" the crew contains no medics unless we have many low berths aboard.

And that is why we calculate the size of the frozen watch Cf without the medics, otherwise we get a circular reference that we can't solve without a lot of calculations.

There are no clearly stated direction on rounding a fractional result, however the instructions for maintenance crew to stewards and medical crew drop fractions. Based on the other seven crew types the fraction is dropped resulting in a Cf = 4. Of course if one follows the directions for the Bridge Crew, Engineering Crew, and Step 8 Cf = 5.

It doesn't say anything about rounding, so we can simply not round but leave it at 4.16.

Combine that with "If Cf low (not emergency low) berths are present, the ship can carry a frozen watch". We need at least 4.16 low berths, but they can only be installed in whole numbers, so we need 5 low berths.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again AnotherDilbert,

I'm back from my errands which gave me time to ponder MT Referee's Manual page 60 reference to Pilot Requirements that the frozen watch must contain at least half of the pilot required for the ship and the proposed solution from CT Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron (TCS).

CT Adventure 5 TCS page 10 left column Pilot Allowance third paragraph:

"For low tonnages ships and starships (under 500 tons) and for small craft (under 100 tons0, one pilot per ship or craft is sufficient. For ships between 500 tons and 20,000 tons, two pilots are required. For ships greater than 20,000 tons, three pilots are required."

MT Referee's Manual page 60:

"Pilot Requirements: The frozen watch must contain at least half of the total number of pilots required for the ship."

"Multiple Frozen Watches: More than one frozen watch may be assigned to a ship. Each frozen watch must meet the requirements that it contain at least on crew section/segment, and it must carry at least 50 percent of the ship's required pilots. Sufficient low berths must be installed to carry all frozen watch personnel."

From Post 3:

Note that we have no specific Pilot requirement in MT, but if we go by TCS (where this comes from) a 70 kDt ship requires three Pilots, and each 50% of the crew frozen requires half so that to pilots.

I agree that CT TCS page 10 requires that hulls greater than 20,000 displacement tons have three pilots.

I agree again the MT Referee's Manual page 60 states that the frozen watch must contain 50% of the ship's required pilots which in the case of the Regal is three pilots.

By MT RAW (p. 60) each 5 person frozen watch must contain 2 Pilots....

I'm not sure that I agree that each 5 person frozen watch must contain 2 Pilots.

The Pilot Requirements and Multiple Frozen Watches on page 60 state that "the frozen watch must contain/carry at least half/50 percent of the ship's required pilots."

My understanding the the text on page 60 is that the Regal;s frozen watch must contain two pilots in addition at least 1 segment of 75 personnel not that two of the 75 personnel in a segment are Regal's pilots.

I'm still pondering on the pilot requirement in MT.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello McPerth,

See that it has some logics that the FW is organized by crew segments, as is how you take losses , so being ideal for replacement of your crew as it is being lost.

The need for 50% of your pilots, OTOH, is not as logical, as pilots are few for the ship, and if you lose the ones for your small crafts, you have probably also lost the crafts themselves, so those pilots are quite useless...

In reality MT has not provide any method for determining a ship's pilot requirements for starship and spacecraft crews. In my opinion the vehicle/small craft crew Operator/Driver equals the small craft pilot.

The Flight Crew is composed of any subordinate craft which is included in the Frozen Watch calculations.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm not sure that I agree that each 5 person frozen watch must contain 2 Pilots.

The Pilot Requirements and Multiple Frozen Watches on page 60 state that "the frozen watch must contain/carry at least half/50 percent of the ship's required pilots."

My understanding the the text on page 60 is that the Regal;s frozen watch must contain two pilots in addition at least 1 segment of 75 personnel not that two of the 75 personnel in a segment are Regal's pilots.

As noted above, the Regal has 75 segments of 5 crew each.

In your own words:

MT Referee's Manual page 82 8 Crew Segments corrected by MT Consolidated Errata page 38: Page 82, Step 8, Crew Segments (Correction): "Divide the crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat a fractional hull segment as a full segment. For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200-kl ship divides into 23-person segments."
...
The equation I get from the text is:

Crew Segments = (Hull Volume kl / 13,500 kl, rounded up)
Personnel in one segment = Total Crew (includes medical crew) / Crew segments, rounded up)

Crew segments = 1 012 500 kl / 13 500 kl = 75.
Personnel in one segment = 329 / 75 = 4.39 rounded up to 5.

Each frozen watch is 5 people.

Each frozen watch must contain at least 1.5 pilots, nothing is said about in addition or anything like it. Pilots in general are not in addition to the crew, they are a part of the crew.

This comes from CT where (originally) a frozen watch was 50% of the crew, including 50% of the pilots, which made perfect sense.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon from Roy, WA AnotherDilbert,

Yippee, the quote button worked.

You reversed segments and crew / segment for the Regal. It's 75 segments of 5 crew each.

Page 82 Step 8 "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."


Following the presentation from the Step 8 Example the Regal has five 75-person segments not 75 segments of 5-persons each.

Agreed, we don't how many medics are included in the crew, but we can guess. Since "Cd = (Z/120)+(Cl/20) (drop fractions)" the crew contains no medics unless we have many low berths aboard.

And that is why we calculate the size of the frozen watch Cf without the medics, otherwise we get a circular reference that we can't solve without a lot of calculations.

Note that MT Consolidated Errata v2.21 page 38 changed the equation to read: Cd = (Z / 120) + ((Cl + Cf) / 20) (drop fractions), where Z = Crew and Passengers, Cl = Low Passengers, and Cf = Frozen Watch.

Another candle flickers on for the Step 8 example. Even by adding 46 crew members to the 45 total crew we do not meet the threshold for medical crew.

Without including a frozen watch or low berth passengers the Regal has total crew Z is 312. The Medical Crew requirement is Cd = 312 / 120 = 2.6 dropping fractions means the Regal has a medical crew requirement of 2.


Adding a frozen watch of four 75-person segments equals 300 people requiring low berths. The Medical Crew requirement is Cd = 300 / 20 = 15.

It doesn't say anything about rounding, so we can simply not round but leave it at 4.16.

Combine that with "If Cf low (not emergency low) berths are present, the ship can carry a frozen watch". We need at least 4.16 low berths, but they can only be installed in whole numbers, so we need 5 low berths.

MT Referee's Manual Step 8 page 60 "... For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

A low berth houses one person. In the example two 23-person equal a total of 46 people. One 23-person segment requires 23 low berths and having both segments require 46 low berths.

The Regal has five 75-person segments. One frozen watch section requires at least 1 75-person segment which requires 75 low berths.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Page 82 Step 8 "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

Following the presentation from the Step 8 Example the Regal has five 75-person segments not 75 segments of 5-persons each.

Yes, the example ship has 2 segments of 23 people each.

A _ _16 200 kl (_1 200 Dt) ship has 1.2 rounded to 2 segments.
A 1 012 500 kl (75 000 Dt) ship has 75 segments.

According to the formula:

Crew Segments = (Hull Volume kl / 13,500 kl, rounded up)

One segment for each 13 500 kl = 1000 Dt (or part thereof). So a 75 000 Dt ship, like the Regal, has 75 segments.

I really don't see why we disagree about this? We agree on the formula?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again AnotherDilbert,

None of the quotes from my post appears.

As noted above, the Regal has 75 segments of 5 crew each.

Page 82 Step 8 Crew Segments "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

The MT Consolidated Errata correction: "Divide the crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment. For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into 23-person segments."

"Divide the Crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment."

One even segment per 13,500 kl of hull = 16,200 /13,500 = 1.2; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment = 2 full segments.

45-person crew / 2 full segments = 23-persons per segment.

One even segment has 23-personnel. The 16,200 kl ship has two 23-person segments.

In your own words:

Yep, I was very, very confused but I think I may have a handle on it now and thank you for your help and patience.

Crew segments = 1 012 500 kl / 13 500 kl = 75.
Personnel in one segment = 329 / 75 = 4.39 rounded up to 5.

Each frozen watch is 5 people.

Each frozen watch must contain at least 1.5 pilots, nothing is said about in addition or anything like it. Pilots in general are not in addition to the crew, they are a part of the crew.

This comes from CT where (originally) a frozen watch was 50% of the crew, including 50% of the pilots, which made perfect sense.

CT LBB 2 Starships requirement was one pilot per hull.

CT LBB 5 High Guard 2 page 32 apparently subsumed the pilots into the Command Section on hulls > 1,000 displacement tons.

CT Adventure 5 TCS pilot requirements are 1 pilot on hulls < 500 displacement tons, hulls 500 displacement tons and < 20,000 tons require 2 pilots, and hull of 20,000 tons and more have 3 pilots.

If the Regal, per TCS, has three pilots and are part of the crew they have been counted, I'm guessing, as part of the Bridge crew and are therefore have already accounted for in the frozen watch.

CT LBB 5 HG2 page 33 Frozen watch "...If low berths provide a 50% overage in personnel (including ship's troops), then the ship has a frozen watch..."

As mentioned ship's pilots have been included in the crew calculations so they have been included in the 50% overage of personnel.

In MT using the CT Adventure 5 TCS the 3 pilots have already been included so they are already a part of the frozen watch personnel. My guess they are included in the Bridge crew calculation.

Thank you again for your help.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Yes, the example ship has 2 segments of 23 people each.

A _ _16 200 kl (_1 200 Dt) ship has 1.2 rounded to 2 segments.
A 1 012 500 kl (75 000 Dt) ship has 75 segments.

According to the formula:

One segment for each 13 500 kl = 1000 Dt (or part thereof). So a 75 000 Dt ship, like the Regal, has 75 segments.

I really don't see why we disagree about this? We agree on the formula?

I wish I typed faster but in my post I finally had the candle flicker on and now agree with the 75 segments of 5 crew members.

I should have mentioned I am sometimes very slow in catching on.

Thank you for your help.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall the Frozen Crew algorithm is based on a wargaming assumption that casualties will be spread evenly across the ship departments; the Flight/Helm department is in unusual low numbers compared to the rest.

I'd round up the department requirements; with pilots specifically, it should be how many are actually required per watch for the (mother) ship.

You can always increase the size of the Frozen Watch as a whole, or specific departments, though that has to be noted as naval doctrine, or as an exception to it for that particular ship, type or class.

One would assume that if the helmsman is a casualty, the primary bridge is in likely need of repair.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning from the Pacific Northwest Condottiere,

As I recall the Frozen Crew algorithm is based on a wargaming assumption that casualties will be spread evenly across the ship departments; the Flight/Helm department is in unusual low numbers compared to the rest.

Thank you for the recollection on how the calculation of the frozen was determined. I'm not sure that a space vessel's flight/helm department is going to have a lower probability of taking a hit.

I'd round up the department requirements; with pilots specifically, it should be how many are actually required per watch for the (mother) ship.

There are 10 departments that MT Referee's Manual Craft Design calculates crew for. Two departments round up, seven drop fractions, and one, the frozen watch, does not to round up or drop fractions. The problem is that MT does not provide a means of determining the number of pilot's a starship or spacecraft requires. In CT LBB 2 Starships small craft, spacecraft, and starships require one pilot. CT LBB 5 High Guard 2e Small Craft require as part of their design requirements a pilot. Starship and spacecraft hulls between 100 and 1,000 displacement tons, per the design requirements default to CT LBB 2 requirements of one pilot. There are no pilot requirements mentioned for hulls greater 1,000 displacement tons and from discussions I've had the general consensus is that the pilots are subsumed in the Command Section.

The duration and number of watches is not discussed in the design process for any Traveller rule set. The traditional watch standing rotation is six four hour watches. However, the rotation can be four six hour or three eight hour watches. During the watch each station will have the watch stander swapped out after a set time period to help keep the person from mentally checking out from boredom and to use the sanitary facilities from time to time.

You can always increase the size of the Frozen Watch as a whole, or specific departments, though that has to be noted as naval doctrine, or as an exception to it for that particular ship, type or class.

The way the frozen watch is now determined you really do not know how many personnel are from which department since they are lumped together to make the calculation simpler. I, as has been shown, have problems even with the simplified material.

One would assume that if the helmsman is a casualty, the primary bridge is in likely need of repair.

Anyplace on a large enough ship that takes casualties is likely going to need repair. Of course the smaller the hull the chances of being destroyed increases depending on what size weapon is used to hit them with.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Thanks to Another Dilbert I have a handle of a sort on determining the segments, crew per segment, and crew per frozen watch.

The problem I am having is that somewhere in the earlier the total crew used was 329. Step 9-8 Crew Segments determined that there are 75 segments of 5 crew. Checking the numbers 75 x 5 = 375 crew which is 375 - 329 = 46 crew more than the calculated number.

The ship's crew has been determined at 329 using the 5 crew per segment. Working with the calculated crew I get 329 / 5 = 65.8 segments or 65 complete segments of 5 crew members and 1 segment with 4 crew.

To have a complete frozen watch I need 329 low berths.

I think Step 9-7 Frozen Watch and 9-8 Crew Segments will have to a modification note in any designs I might share with the community.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The problem I am having is that somewhere in the earlier the total crew used was 329. Step 9-8 Crew Segments determined that there are 75 segments of 5 crew. Checking the numbers 75 x 5 = 375 crew which is 375 - 329 = 46 crew more than the calculated number.

The segment calculation is probably not supposed to tell us anything about the total crew, but just tells us how many crew are casualties in a Crew-1 hit.

So, a Crew-1 hit results in 5 casualties, replaced by thawing a 5 person frozen watch. No more, no less.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

The segment calculation is probably not supposed to tell us anything about the total crew, but just tells us how many crew are casualties in a Crew-1 hit.

So, a Crew-1 hit results in 5 casualties, replaced by thawing a 5 person frozen watch. No more, no less.

First my apologies for taking not getting back to you sooner, I blew up my MT spreadsheet and I have been trying to put it back together.

On the Regal's profile sheet of the original sheet the Accomm block's first entry is Crew=75x5 (Bridge=18,... and Donald's version is Crew=329 (75x4;...

The original version tells me that there can be 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In Donald's version the ship has a crew of 329 and that there are still 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In actuality 66 Crew hits will wipe out the crew.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

On the Regal's profile sheet of the original sheet the Accomm block's first entry is Crew=75x5 (Bridge=18,... and Donald's version is Crew=329 (75x4;...

The original version tells me that there can be 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In Donald's version the ship has a crew of 329 and that there are still 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In actuality 66 Crew hits will wipe out the crew.

I would say each crew hit inflicts 5 casualties.
After 33 crew hits the crew is reduced below 50%, so the ship is no longer combat effective (no attack or repair).
After 66 crew hits there is no functioning crew left (which surprisingly has no specified effect).


If the ship has taken 30 crew hits it probably have bigger problems as this implies many spinal meson hits or an almost unarmoured ship.