More Fun with Malenfant

[mad13142000]

OK...As I get closer to taking the plunge and having something in print...
I'm playing with Universe, and decide to start over with a clean slate...So I start my new CT map with Core...I load in the Sunbane data (its a start) then start copying in all the canon data I have...
Problem #1 arises...
I have a world that Exists in T4...
Iirkkhu 2122 C476000-9... OK, a common problem planet with a starport and no population. But a THOUSAND YEARS LATER in MT...The same planet:
Elinz 2122 B476000-D ...and base Code A
It's gone up in tech (IMPOSSIBLY SO) and had a starport upgrade...along with adding a naval banse and a scout base and there still isn't a soul on the freaking planet!!! So, I'm leaning back towards the pave over the crappy canon crowd...With both SJG and QLI talking about writing a sector book for Core, I'm mighty tempted to do so....
By the way, in MTU it reverts to a starport X world - A frosty little ice ball with the twin bases but no habitable planet...If the mighty Imperium can't exploit a planet in their backyard in 1000 years, it MUST be worthless...
<sigh>
-MADDog

 

[daryen]

Of course this begs the question of why a world with 60% water and a breathable (though tainted) atmosphere is ignored for 1100 years. Must be one heck of a taint.

BTW, unless it is interdicted, you should probably use a starport of E, not X. Most non-interdicted worlds without a population are given an E starport.

 

[mad13142000]

OK...Starport E it is...
But the depressing thought is that the world in question is within 5 pasecs of Capital aka Sylea and lies on 2 major Xboat routes...It's on the Jump-1 Sylean main!!!
It's been a Barren world for over a thousand years??
-MADDog

 

[far-trader]

Or...

I was looking at the world writeups in Epic Adventure 1 last week and it describes Arkaene, a Pop 0 (refined as 6) with a Starport B and TL 9 with a lot of traffic due to it being the terminus of the X-boat route. It notes that Arkaene has no indigenous population but there are hundreds of miners and prospectors engaged in working the world. So it seems that the 6 people "registered" as citizens of Arkaene are those few who have decided to make it "home", and not the hundreds of miners and prospectors on the surface, nor the hundreds (?) of starport personnel and trade representives at the busy highport.

So given the apparent definition of Pop as indigenous or permanent residents I have a rather different suggestion for Iirkkhu/Elinz. It is a garden world, of sorts, and a very popular tourist vacation world in the core. The taint produces a mild euphoria similar to being slightly intoxicated. This and the light gravity make the planet a great place to unwind. The problem is there is no counter measure to the taint, either in sealing against it or in blocking the effect. The effect does wear off in time but prolonged exposure has several detrimental effects. There are no permanent residents but a huge number of temporary employees and tourists.

Hmm, are the bases there to protect the elite tourists? Or is it just that its now also a huge Imperial Services R&R world too, so much so that bases are needed to service the fleets that call?

 

[Straybow]

Sounds like a plausible effect, but there would still be thousands (perhaps hundreds of k) of permanent residents even if they technically resided in orbit. Shuttle pilots, tour guides, park rangers, administrators etc.

They need lots of these people because each can only work part time to limit exposure. Somebody is going to build orbital hotels for transfer to/from planetside, stayovers between expeditions for those who want more than one trip, etc. Some of the pilots, guides, rangers etc can work in other jobs part time, but there will still be full time resident staff for orbital operations.

In fact, they'd probably have to institute work visas to keep people from swarming in to get a piece of the action. There's gold in them pockets!

 

[Malenfant]

Who's having what sort of fun with me now??

Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"? I always took it to mean "average population on the planet at any given time" to be honest.

CT Book 3 is helpfully (and typically) unclear on the matter.


Still, the world that MadDOG mentioned sounds very much like another 'random UWP generation that wasn't looked at or reality checked by anyone'. Given it's from T4, I'm not surprised it's "broken".

 

[far-trader]

Yep, that's the bit you have to decide for YTU, where the Imperium, or more likely the TAS draws the line when making the mainworld summaries. In the case of EA#1, MJD (I presume) used the Pop digit to mean (apparently) permanent residents of the surface of the mainworld, and not the highport or those on the surface living and working there long enough to form communities of 10's of people.

In the case of this world those thousands or more off world don't count, despite the fact that many of them may make it their life's work and they are only minutes away. If there are any permanent residents (in the expanded format PBG digits) they might represent the exceedingly small fraction for whom the taint has no effect and they can safely remain on the world, or perhaps even more diabolical, exposure beyond a certain limit makes you not only immune to but physically dependant on the taint, which can't be reproduced or preserved, making them prisoners in paradise but unable to enjoy it

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Who's having what sort of fun with me now??

Well I never pass up an oppurtunity to post in the spirit of the topic heading, kinda suprised (in a pleased way) you picked up on it

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"? I always took it to mean "average population on the planet at any given time" to be honest.

CT Book 3 is helpfully (and typically) unclear on the matter.

As you say, its rather vague so YTU-MTU whatever works I say

I'm pretty sure it is just another random world but I always try to work out a story for them without resorting to changing UWP's, on the spot since players never go where you want when you want. The example above was a quick post off the cuff for example. The hard bit is to come up with different ideas for similar (and brokenish) worlds.

Another (tougher) issue is the TL's. Are they local manufacture ability or purchaseable goods? And in what quantities and flavors? In this example with a Law of 0 most PC's are going to be salivating for high-tech weapons

Which will of course lead to a major misunderstanding when the PC's are asked for all their gear at the embarkation lounge prior to planetfall and are issued the standard kimono and soft slippers all visitors are required to change in to before being allowed down

Too bad that all the planet has are various high-tech meditation aids, games, and comfy lounge chairs and such. No Vacc-Suits(tm) or Combat Armor or PGMP or G-Tanks

 

[mad13142000]

So, are we basically saying that the UWP population code ONLY refers to official citizens of the world in question, and does NOT refer to anyone residing in system if they are on a station or other habitation insystem???
I'm willing to go for it, although it would be nice if an ancient would say yea or nay on the issue - I know we've debated this on TML and JTAS on occasion, and I wouldn't have brought it up again except that it seems to occur across games and companies, through the mileus, from CT to TNE...heck, I've even argued the point that POP code DOESN'T refer to transient workers and non-surface dwellers, but I'm at the end of the proverbial rope...
Either it gets mentioned in a rulebook, or I'm all for paving over stupid canon with a plausable, PLAYABLE, consistent setting - and by that, I want the OTU - each and every official sector plotted, so I can travel from Capital or Terra to Regina or Caledon and EVERYONE knows what I'm talking about without people wondering why their version of Core has a different planet at location X than the one I'm talking about....I don't think it's too much to ask - If I play D&D, the towns of Greyhawk don't mutate locations or names...The same should apply to the 3rd Imperium...It would make it so much easier for authors to write material for a setting that is consistent...look at all the JG modules that aren't playable because the setting changed (not the best example...I'm glad the setting is changed, but you get the overall idea - Why would anyone take on the task of setting an adventure in Ilelish if there are 5 different maps of the sector...you'd have to write a whole new sector before you could even write the adventure just to be sure that the Ref knew what the hell you were talking about)
oh well...
-MADDog

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Maddoggy.
You may not have noticed but they are rerighting the sectors, though i would have liked them to put in the system data (number of planets,where they are,belts,gas giants) you know the map of the system.
Yes if i'm going to wish for the stars i'm going to wish big.
You only need one single sided page per system, so one book per sector would be good.
Bye.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Maybe the system in question has a secret research facility. Officially, there is no population, but there are people there doing the very important, very secret research. The bases are there to protect the research facility.

 

[Malenfant]

They'd be pretty brainless to have this "Seekrit Research Base" in a seemingly unoccupied system that blatantly has two bases clearly marked on the map

"No, really. We just built these bases here because... the scenery was nice. Yeah. There is absolutely no Big Secret in this system that we're guarding. Honest. In fact, to even suggest that there is would be treasonous, so I'm afraid we'll have to arrest you and impound your ship."

 

[mike wightman]

Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"? I always took it to mean "average population on the planet at any given time" to be honest.

The Keith brothers, in their referee's guide to planet building in Journal 10, took it to mean "permanent population". In their design example they even had tens of millions of sentient native "aliens" used by the human population as slave labour. The UPP only represented the millions of humans though.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"? I always took it to mean "average population on the planet at any given time" to be honest.

The Keith brothers, in their referee's guide to planet building in Journal 10, took it to mean "permanent population". In their design example they even had tens of millions of sentient native "aliens" used by the human population as slave labour. The UPP only represented the millions of humans though. </font>[/QUOTE]So thier definition is more of a census of "citizens" of the world. I knew I'd seen this somewhere, that example of counting the masters but not the slaves. I don't recall the details (if any). Were the (vague recall) slaves not counted because they were not Imperial citizens? For some reason Droyne or Chirpers are ringing some bells, or is it just the sound of them casting coynes

 

[mike wightman]

The humans classed them as beasts of burden and the IISS went along with that.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

The humans classed them as beasts of burden and the IISS went along with that.

IISS Scout I. L. Denii Grand Survey Log:

Met with the locals today to confirm census totals. Original numbers were in error due to poor sensor calibration misidentifying an indigenous lifeform as valid. The locals were very helpful in recalibrating the sensors.

IISS Scout I. L. Denii Personal Log:

I now have a very comfortable nest egg of negotiables and a fully staffed retirement home on this pretty little world. As soon as this survey business is done I'll be taking it easy.

...didn't you ever wonder where the IISS personnel got all that cash in muster

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"?

No, but the UWP is far less useful if it doesn't include the average transient population, and various formulas for calculating the GWP of worlds (in TCS, Striker, Pocket Empires, and Far Trader) certainly assumes that it does.

Also, there is at least one world writeup (of Macene, IIRC) where the population shown in the UWP is specifically said to include a large number of transients.

Personally, I'd say you need a singularly good explanation for each instance where the UWP population digits don't include the average transient population. Bribing IISS survey directors is all very well, but you need someone with the cash and the motive to do the bribing.


Hans

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by rancke:
Personally, I'd say you need a singularly good explanation for each instance where the UWP population digits don't include the average transient population. Bribing IISS survey directors is all very well, but you need someone with the cash and the motive to do the bribing.

I agree. It doesn't make sense to leave out transients, or even the indigenous population - it makes the digit rather useless.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:

CT Book 3 is helpfully (and typically) unclear on the matter.

And even CT Book 6 is not much more so, saying it "refers to sophonts (intelligent beings; not necessarily human) on the world."

Originally posted by MADDog:
So, are we basically saying that the UWP population code ONLY refers to official citizens of the world in question, and does NOT refer to anyone residing in system if they are on a station or other habitation insystem???
I'm willing to go for it, although it would be nice if an ancient would say yea or nay on the issue - I know we've debated this on TML and JTAS on occasion, and I wouldn't have brought it up again except that it seems to occur across games and companies, through the mileus, from CT to TNE...heck, I've even argued the point that POP code DOESN'T refer to transient workers and non-surface dwellers, but I'm at the end of the proverbial rope...
Either it gets mentioned in a rulebook, or I'm all for paving over stupid canon with a plausable, PLAYABLE, consistent setting - and by that, I want the OTU - each and every official sector plotted, so I can travel from Capital or Terra to Regina or Caledon and EVERYONE knows what I'm talking about without people wondering why their version of Core has a different planet at location X than the one I'm talking about....I don't think it's too much to ask - If I play D&D, the towns of Greyhawk don't mutate locations or names...The same should apply to the 3rd Imperium...It would make it so much easier for authors to write material for a setting that is consistent...look at all the JG modules that aren't playable because the setting changed (not the best example...I'm glad the setting is changed, but you get the overall idea - Why would anyone take on the task of setting an adventure in Ilelish if there are 5 different maps of the sector...you'd have to write a whole new sector before you could even write the adventure just to be sure that the Ref knew what the hell you were talking about)
oh well...
-MADDog

Times I feel like that too MADDog. I think part of the original idea behind the TML Landgrab was to do just that, detail every official system to provide that consistancy. Seems it should be finished already You know rather than the silly newbie essay there they should have assigned a system to detail and we'd have The Imperium done

I'd be happy for a little clearer idea of what the UWP defines. Another example from reading EA #1, and Arkaene again. The descriptive says its a busy place and the PC's should have no problem picking up some frieght outbound to turn a few creds. Problem is, going strictly by the books trade rules, a Pop 0 world has NO freight going out, ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. No passengers either for that matter. So a little descriptive error or willful ignorance of the trade tables? Seems any two people looking at a UWP will come up with a completely different take on what the world is like, and more power to the game. I'm sure that's the intent, to free the referee rather than force a single vision on them. Works fine for YTU-MTU but for the OTU there should be some consistancy and reason I agree.

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
Are we absolutely sure that the population digit means "permanent population of the planet" and not "people just passing through"?

No, but the UWP is far less useful if it doesn't include the average transient population, and various formulas for calculating the GWP of worlds (in TCS, Striker, Pocket Empires, and Far Trader) certainly assumes that it does.</font>[/QUOTE]But of those the first two are not meant to apply to the RPG OTU and so any such assumption seems false for them. I don't remember getting that impression from anything I've read but certainly Pocket Empires presents an extreme case so I can't see it applying to the stable OTU Imperium. I've never seen Far Trader. Is there a specific bit in it that says so?

I think I've said before that if Pop is an official tally of resident citizens it works with the trade formulas which rely on knowing how many people contribute to interstellar trade (and hence taxes) and travel, even if its just a fraction of those who are actually able to.

Originally posted by rancke:
Also, there is at least one world writeup (of Macene, IIRC) where the population shown in the UWP is specifically said to include a large number of transients.

Personally, I'd say you need a singularly good explanation for each instance where the UWP population digits don't include the average transient population. Bribing IISS survey directors is all very well, but you need someone with the cash and the motive to do the bribing.

To each thier own. So you have one example where it specifies that the Pop includes transients. I have one where it doesn't, Arkaene in EA #1. I don't think either case is strong enough on its own to make the call one way or another.

Personally I'm directly opposite your opinion and think the Pop should never include transients and if you do then you need a singularly good explanation for each instance. Otherwise shouldn't you count them at every world they land on? That would make the whole Pop digit completly useless week to week in an Empire that is supposed to be glacially slow to change.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I agree. It doesn't make sense to leave out transients, or even the indigenous population - it makes the digit rather useless.

Certainly whatever works for you is the way to go. Myself I think the only way that makes sense is for any census to only count a person once. Transients should be counted as residents of their homeworld or not at all imo. And for the indigenous population to count they have to first be sophonts (according to LBB 6) and T20 at least, in the expanded system generation rules, labels generated indigenous population as referring to non-sophonts only.