Missile supplement 3

[Otto Harkaman]

Are missiles cost effective?

A standard 5G5 missile, limited burn, radio sensing, proximity detonator, high explosive warhead as listed in Supp3 costs cr16,200

As I look at the "to hit" table in Mayday it made me wonder what advantage you derive from missiles over lasers? Especially when you start to factor in Evade programs, sandcasters, anti-missile laser fire and I think an ECM program that will detonate them at a distance. Not to mention my prior post that you have to have a fire solution on the target much like a WW2 torpedo.

They seem to be a great way to burn though credits fast.

LBB does list a standard missile that only says it is homing at cr5,000, doesn't seem too much else is said. Actually I can't find much else in LBB2 about missiles.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Well now that I look even closer to LBB2 there is a small paragraph at the end of the Game Turn Interphase called Missile Detonation that says a missile will inflict 1 to 6 hits depending on the range of detonation.

So I guess at the rare chance you hit it can do catastrophic damage, since a 6 would take out most everything on a small ship.

I do like this "all ordnance which is launched has the launching ship's vector" I thought that obvious but nice to have a reference to refer to.

I don't see any "to hit" table in LBB2, Hit locations, critical hits, Attacker and Defender DMs tables is all.

 

[Dragoner]

Lasers hit on an 8+, missiles "hit" when they come into contact with the target.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Are Evade programs only for Laser fire then?

I only see a dice modifier for obscuring sand for the hit factor, so they are only for laser fire? A blast of sand (or some sort of particle canister shot) at a high velocity I think would be a great deterrent to an incoming missile. Also a great anti-personnel weapon.

What about the ECM modifier that can deflect or destroy the missile? Is there a dice roll?

Is anti-missile laser fire a base 8+ as well?

So as long as I can put a 50 kilogram (110 lb and 3.69 oz) missile with a conventional warhead within 10,000 kilometers (6213 mi. and 1252.9 yd) of you, I hit for 1-6 critical systems on your space or star ship? Obviously a "to kill" weapon that a pirate isn't going to use to capture a ship, it seems to me now.

There are nuclear and fusion warheads mentioned in Sup3, so makes a fighter vs a Battleship attractive I imagine. Not to even mention anti-matter!

 

[Dragoner]

Yes, Bk2 evade is only for laser fire, IMTU I use it for missiles as well, but use Bk2 movement with simplified vector and HG2 tables, though I have been thinking of adding the HG1 critical tables. Sup3 missile go through a simplified solution, I could not imagine handling a raft of missiles.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Just looking at a 10-ton fighter which can carry a 3 missile racks, 1 ton of storage, that is about 18 of these standard missiles.

I think the ultimate weapon against a large ship is going to be a ship's boat at G-6 with beam laser for self defense and two missile racks, at least 13 tons storage with 234 standard missiles. If I fire continuously at you inbound at a lot Gs and get off all those missiles at you like a MIRV you are toast.

not to mention a robot control ship's boat on a kamikaze mission packed with explosive. What would the yield be of that at 13 tons if a 50 kilogram missile does so much damage? At least 11,000x1-6 hits?

 

[Dragoner]

Just looking at a 10-ton fighter which can carry a 3 missile racks, 1 ton of storage, that is about 18 of these standard missiles.

I think the ultimate weapon against a large ship is going to be a ship's boat at G-6 with beam laser for self defense and two missile racks, at least 13 tons storage with 234 standard missiles. If I fire continuously at you inbound at a lot Gs and get off all those missiles at you like a MIRV you are toast.

not to mention a robot control ship's boat on a kamikaze mission packed with explosive. What would the yield be of that at 13 tons if a 50 kilogram missile does so much damage? At least 11,000x1-6 hits?

Though maybe the ship's boat can't maneuver enough to stay out of harms way? The thing is, if you go off of Bk2, then the biggest ship is 5k tons, so you would say then you have more ship's? Having only lasers and missiles isn't too exiciting, though.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

I am just trying to get my tactical thinking around the weapon systems available in the game according to LBB2 and Missile Supplement 3. Or better yet how does the game actually play?

I haven't even attempted to understand HG in years nor do I think I want to. If I am doing large ships I am playing FFW, Imperium or Invasion Earth.

As to hits there doesn't seem much difference it looks like between a 100t ship and a 5Kt ship. Damage eats away at the drives, power-plants and computers incrementally. Turrets and therefore weapons are taken out where the larger ship has more turrets to die than the smaller ship. The only difference is the larger ship has more hulls, holds and cabins (I assume). (I don't see any rules how these numbers are determined now that I think about, I just assume there are.)

I think someone stated in a post long ago, Do you "Play" Traveller or are you "Playing" at it.

The rules need to be clarified and gamed out. As someone questioned, did the GDW staff actually play these rules? Or did they just publish a half bunch of rubbish in a pretty cover and sell it for $10.

You guys don't "Play" it, you are "Playing" at it by making lists and lists of ships, to what purpose? I guess you get some satisfactions from it, I don't know. If lasers and missiles are too boring why not go all the way and add phasers and disrupter rays. I wish we had deflector shields.

I plan on trying to figure it out to game it and play it.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

To get back to my original question, can a team of adventurers afford to shoot a cr16,200 missile?

 

[Dragoner]

At TL12 it's only 4,480 cr. The answer is the same as I said, yes, I've played Bk2 as well as HG, I'm plenty others have as well. Phasers? Bleh

 

[Hyphen]

To get back to my original question, can a team of adventurers afford to shoot a cr16,200 missile?

(Apologies to those who have heard this before.)

I've actually had this question arise in a game. The PCs' ship was under fire from a pirate, the pilot (PC) gave the "Fire missile!" order, and one of the gunners (another PC) argued the toss! "Do you know how much those things COST?!!"

He was persuaded when the other players pointed out (a) how much it would cost to fix their ship if it was damaged, and (b) how much they could claim from salvage if they managed to defeat the oirate....

...thus leading, as all such interactions should, to more role-playing, rather than accounting. ;-)

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Sorry for popping off,

At TL12 it's only 4,480 cr

sounds just like the missile listed in LBB2 now, interesting.

I am surprised there is not a "to hit" table in LBB2, I wonder if it was something that was forgotten. Have to look closer over this Supp3 rules.

 

[mike wightman]

The rule for missile intercept is pretty clear - if a missile's vector puts it within 2.5cm of the target it automatically hits and inflicts 1d6 rolls on the damage table.

You can try to stop it with anti-missile laser fire or ecm program.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

The rule for missile intercept is pretty clear - if a missile's vector puts it within 2.5cm of the target it automatically hits and inflicts 1d6 rolls on the damage table.

You can try to stop it with anti-missile laser fire or ecm program.

Thanks Mike, I guess I was assuming too many things.

I just realized D. Foxx's spreadsheet for figuring out spaceship interceptions would be an important tool in missile interceptions or something similar. Wow I haven't looked at trig in centuries.

2.5CM, that I guess is my problem is that I am trying to use a hex map from Mayday. I don't have a large enough floor space or cool miniatures. I did have notes on the scales between CT and Mayday, of course I put them in same logical place that I can't remember now.

 

[Dragoner]

I believe 2.5 cm ala Bk2 is 25000 km, which sounds like a lot but your 5G6 missile is going 300,000 per turn terminal velocity. I have played realistic air combat simulators, and most air combat is slow, launch missiles and wait and wait forever. Which space is probably even worse, you can see forever, so it's wait until the computer does the fire solution then push the button, if that really. Even lasers, fire at the speed of light, it's hard to think of an evade program that would be effective. It is interesting reading the JTAS and Challenges where the designers talked about these things, sometimes they are wrong, like about microvibrations in laser mounts, but alot of times they are right, like actual lasers having huge focusing arrays. Sometimes I think people get too hung up on having a to hit number without thinking of what it might really be like. Who knows.

My missile question for today is: "does an anti-matter explosion have residual radiation?" My first thought would be no, but thinking about it I would say yes, it is more like fission, that a chemical explosive such as HE.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

I think people get too hung up on having a to hit number without thinking of what it might really be like. Who knows.

Well I acknowledge you are probably right, perhaps I am not thinking what it is trying to represent and just expecting something I am familiar with from another game.

I have played realistic air combat simulators, and most air combat is slow, launch missiles and wait and wait forever

I guess that is why I am so interested in trying to play it because its hard for me to imagine without seeing it. What are their tactical use at what distance etc. Slow approach far away but then it looks like you could hit right away if you are within range of the initial launch burn maximum.

Well with using a hex grid I suppose I am not really being fully cannon but I believe I have seen its use mentioned at some points in the text. I was guesstimating CT hexes were 10,000km, the scale mentioned in Mayday is 300,000km. A turn in CT is 16.6 minutes and Mayday 100 minutes.

I believe 2.5 cm ala Bk2 is 25000 km

Well it says what it says but that seems a long distance away, two and a half hexes by my scale estimation. I suppose you could damage your own ship then If you are five hexes away from the other ship. Defeats my thinking above on hitting at launch.

 

[Whipsnade]

I am just trying to get my tactical thinking around the weapon systems available in the game according to LBB2 and Missile Supplement 3. Or better yet how does the game actually play?

Why don't you play out some scenarios then? Use LBB:2 or Mayday and move some missiles around.

I haven't even attempted to understand HG in years nor do I think I want to.

That's a completely different rules set. Missiles, like many other things, are handled in an abstract manner in order to speed play involving large numbers of large ships.

As to hits there doesn't seem much difference it looks like between a 100t ship and a 5Kt ship. Damage eats away at the drives, power-plants and computers incrementally.

That will depend on which rules set you're using. In LBB:2, for example, a certain number of hits occurring in one turn destroy the ship. Once again, pick a rules set, play it, and many things will become clear.

The only difference is the larger ship has more hulls, holds and cabins (I assume). (I don't see any rules how these numbers are determined now that I think about, I just assume there are.)

You assume wrong. This isn't Star Fleet Battles or Starfire. There aren't any boxes to check off. Hits in Traveller's various ship combat rule sets damage or destroy systems and sometimes destroy entire ships.

The rules need to be clarified and gamed out.

The rules have been used for over thirty years so they must be clear enough to the people who have actually used them.

As someone questioned, did the GDW staff actually play these rules? Or did they just publish a half bunch of rubbish in a pretty cover and sell it for $10.

GDW was publishing award winning wargames before Traveller had even been thought of and, most likely, before you were even thought of. GDW also continued to publish award-winning wargames long after Traveller was released. I think they knew their way around their rule sets and, as someone who has played both LBB:2 and Mayday for over thirty years, I can say those rules work.

Play the games, then ask your questions.

If lasers and missiles are too boring why not go all the way and add phasers and disrupter rays. I wish we had deflector shields.

If 2D vector movement doesn't intrigue you, go play Star Fleet Battles.

I plan on trying to figure it out to game it and play it.

Sounds like a plan, now go do it.

Edit: I noticed in your other posts that you're mixing and matching LBB:2 and Mayday. That's an incredibly very bad idea as the two games have completely different scales and it's most likely why you're so confused. Pick one or the other in order to maintain a coherent scale.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

I had at first been trying to create a "battleboard" in cyberboard based on Mayday. I don't have the floor space to play using minatures.

larger picture

Then someone created this great vassal engine module for Mayday which has some scripting allowing the ships to move present counter to future counter etc.

Here is a short movie I made of setting up the ship counters and then making one move to show how the counters jump past counter to present, present to future. All you have to do is move the future counter.

test.wmv

 

[Whipsnade]

I had at first been trying to create a "battleboard" in cyberboard based on Mayday. I don't have the floor space to play using minatures.

Your movie is an excellent piece of work and so is that Vassal engine.

However, when it comes to playing space, both LBB:2 and Mayday were designed as tabletop games. LBB:2 measures distances in millimeters and Mayday's maps consist of a few 8.5x11 sheets. If you've a kitchen table you can play either game right now, you needn't spend the time "computerizing" them.

 

[Dragoner]

I had at first been trying to create a "battleboard" in cyberboard based on Mayday. I don't have the floor space to play using minatures.

Then someone created this great vassal engine module for Mayday which has some scripting allowing the ships to move present counter to future counter etc.

Here is a short movie I made of setting up the ship counters and then making one move to show how the counters jump past counter to present, present to future. All you have to do is move the future counter.

It is nice work, you should be proud.