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Miniature Carriers

Right from CT carried craft require some additional volume - it's 110% and 130% in CT. I dunno what later versions suggest.

In MT it requires 110% for 100+ dton crafts, 130 for 20-100 dton crafts and 150% for smaller crafts
 
That's only in a designed bay for that craft.

Non-custom require 200% (See HG).

Right, but one custom bay for one 20t gig or two 10t fighters will take up the same volume.

In game terms "refitting" a ship to carry different small craft consists merely of designating what craft the bays are designed to take.
 
Hi

I play CT using Book 2 rules (because I like to concentrate on the role playing so that all the characters are as involved in everything as much as possible).

The characters have come up with an idea of dumping their cutter and replacing it with five 10-ton fighters so that they are able to kick substantially more butt in space combats.

I can't find anything in the rules which say categorically "You can't do this" but nor have I seen any design with ships under 1000 tons having several fighters.

This is strange because, if it is possible for small ships to carry as many fighters as they can hold, then it would completely change the logic of all small Naval vessels. A mere Free Trader could carry eight fighters, each with a triple missile rack which should be able to take out a normal ship of up to 1000 tons for a fraction of the price.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Should it be possible for small ships to have as many fighters onboard as they have space for, or are there reasons why it shouldn't be possible.

A secondary question. It says the 10-ton fighter can have triple missile racks, but how many missiles in total would they be carrying in total?

I guess the over arching thought for me is first that I believe that the original CT rules did not initially specifically address fighters at all. As such, if trying to convert a conventional merchant ship to a small fighter then there might be some additional stuff to consider that the rules might not directly cover.

With regards to this, I think Book 0 ("An Intro to Traveller (?)) suggests something along the lines that adapting the rules to try and cover stuff not directly addressed is encouraged but when trying to do so try to keep in mind how changes effect other parts of the game. So I suspect it would make sense to try and think things through and figure out what might realistically (within the terms of the game) be needed rather than sticking solely to the concept that since the rules don't say you can't do this or that since the rules don't suggest that you need anything additional, then nothing is needed.

As several others have already noted, maybe you should consider the need for a weapons magazine, etc. In addition, you probably maybe also should consider the need for spare parts and machine shops to assist in repairing any battle damage and the like, plus you probably would also need additional crew/maintainers for the craft.

Also as others have noted, in CT I believe that for most conventional merchant ships deck heights are assumed to be about 3m, and if you consider "Snapshot' to be part of CT I believe that clear deck height may be even lower - about 2.5m or so - to account for structure and services, etc, which may greatly limit the type of craft that you might be able to carry in a hold.

Additionally, there is also issues such as possible limited life support availability on a fighter (especially if you consider a fighter to be somewhat similar to the Rampart fighters from "Azhanti High Lightning". In such a case, I'd suspect that after spending several hours deployed in a fighter, the pilot will probably need some down time back onboard the mother ship to rest, eat, and such.

Finally, there are other small issues like whether the mother "carrier" will also need any additional electronics or sensors and the like to try and help the ship better coordinate with its fighters while in combat.

Anyway, just some additional thoughts

Regards

Pat
 
CT '81 had fighters. So did TTB and ST. 10Td each. No limit on how many, other than available tonnage for fighters and crew. I don't know about CT '79, as I've never gotten my hands upon it. It didn't have any carriers... but, a 2000Td "carrier" could look like:


Td__ __MCr__ Item
2000 __220.0 custom hull SL
__40 ___10.0 Bridge
___7 ___30.0 Model 6
_125 __240.0 JD Z = J6
__73 __192.0 PP Z = P6
__47 ___96.0 MD Z = M6
1200 ____0.0 JFuel 1J6
__60 ____0.0 PPFuel P6
__20 ___22.0 20xHP w/Trip Tur - weapons not installed
___0 ___30.0 10xTrip Beam Laser for turrets
___0 ____7.5 10xTrip SC
_180 ____0.0 Hangarage for 18 Fighters
____ __342.0 19 TTB fighters
_240 ___30.0 60 Staterooms
___8 ____0.0 Cargo x8 tons.
Crew: 60...
CO _____ 1
XO _____ 1
Admin __ 3
Pilot __ 1
Navig __ 1
Medic __ 1
Engr _ 7
Troops 7

Gunny _ 20
SCPilot 19

MCr1219.5


V Carrier. 2000 Tons. Jump 6, 6-G. 1260 tons fuel. Model 6. 60 staterooms. 20 hardpoints (10x Triple Sand, 10x Triple Beam Laser). 19 Fighters, 8 tons cargo, 41 ship's crew (CO,XO, P, N, M, 20xG, 7xE, 6xST) plus 19 fighter pilots (19xP). MCr1219.5, 32 months.

The fighters are included, but need to be armed. Typical is Model 2 + Beam Laser or Model 3 and triple missiles.
Cost per Beam fighter is MCr8 additional (total MCr26 each); full set is MCr152 additional over above.
Cost per Missile fighter is MCr18.25 additional (total MCr36.25 each); full set is MCr356.75 additional over above price.

This is clearly a SSU Imperial fast battle carrier. It's tech 15 (Drives ≥ V), and carries twice the armaments of anything her size... in the form of fighters.

The J4/4G version:

Td__ __MCr__ Item
2000 __220.0 custom hull SL
__40 ___10.0 Bridge
___7 ___30.0 Model 4
_120 __230.0 JD Y = J4
__70 __184.0 PP Y = P4
__45 ___92.0 MD Y = M4
_800 ____0.0 JFuel 1J4
__40 ____0.0 PPFuel P6
__20 ___22.0 20xHP w/Trip Tur - weapons not installed
___0 ___30.0 10xTrip Beam Laser for turrets
___0 ____7.5 10xTrip SC
_480 ____0.0 Hangarage for 48 Fighters
____ __864.0 48 TTB fighters
_356 ___44.5 89 Staterooms
__22 ____0.0 Cargo x22 tons.
==== =======
2000 _1514.0 totals
Crew: 41+48...
CO _____ 1
XO _____ 1
Admin __ 3
Pilot __ 1
Navig __ 1
Medic __ 1
Engr __ 7
Gunny _ 20
Troops _ 6
SCPilot 48

MCr1514


VA Heavy Carrier 2000 Tons. Jump 4, 4-G. 840 tons fuel. Model 6. 89 staterooms. 20 hardpoints (10x Triple Sand, 10x Triple Beam Laser). 48 Fighters, 22 tons cargo, 41 ship's crew (CO,XO, P, N, M, 20xG, 7xE, 6xST) plus 48 fighter pilots (48xP). MCr1514, 32 months.
 
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Right, but one custom bay for one 20t gig or two 10t fighters will take up the same volume.

In game terms "refitting" a ship to carry different small craft consists merely of designating what craft the bays are designed to take.

I guess it could be more difficult than just that. I guess the small crafts hangars are a solid structure on the ships, capable to have independent presuritzation/depresuritzation to better allow the craft to be launched, so, to modify them to carry different craft would be major refits, as I guess they must tamper with hull-like walls.

A 20 dton craft (280 cubic meters) may have many shapes. It is quite difficult to fill the same shape/volume with two 10 dton (140 cubic meters) crafts, even if the volume is the same.

Even if the crafts are caried externally (e.g. Gazelle's gig), problems with clamps and connecting airlocks will preclude to replace that 20 dton gig by 2 10 dton fighters.

In Assignment Vigilante (MT) apears a portrait of a Unity of Promise Gazelle that carries a Rampant fighter instead of the gig, but only one, hinting that there's no place (while perhaps there would be space) for a seccond, even if the Rampant is 10 dton and the gig is 20 dton.
 
my simplest solution thought would be to say .... sure you can put 5 fighters in but it needs major rebuilding to change the ship enough to launch / recover more than 1 per action

my more detail oriented thoughts would add complexities for the situation eg limited rearming outside a spaceport, no accel during launch (or penalties for every g), penalties during recovery and of course dont forget captain you now have 5 small boat pilots needing beds not just the one
 
If you use a 100tn weapon bay for carrying a small craft, the biggest small craft possible is 50ton. (HG pg 30). Using this rule of thumb a 20ton hanger could fit a single 10 ton fighter.

Changing hanger configurations should come under the Refitting Ships section of TCS (p34).

Its a bit like deciding as captain you don't need a double stateroom as the wife & kids no longer travel with you. Changing it to two staterooms is no problem, but it requires some work and will cost some credits.

TCS indicates for "Minor" refits it costs 1.1 x component costs and 1/10th of the ships construction time. As a GM I would consider in both cases (changing stateroom and hanger configurations) the cost is sound and would likely determine 2-3 weeks (GM fiat) for the alterations, depending on the scale desired.

Arguably changing hanger configuration is the more difficult operation. If fuel tankage can be displaced to accommodate the new shape, that would be the cheapest option. If upper or lower deck passages, staterooms or cargo space needs displacing, it becomes more of a challenge to accommodate the new craft and retain the functionality of the existing spaces.

Other options may exists, such as having the craft dock on its side, back to front or upside-down in order to direct the needed refit into the area that will cause the least problems.

I guess summing this up, what I am suggesting is that changing what you are able to carry should not be instantaneous and free.
 
CT '81 had fighters. So did TTB and ST. 10Td each. No limit on how many, other than available tonnage for fighters and crew. I don't know about CT '79, as I've never gotten my hands upon it. It didn't have any carriers...

The original 3 book set had no mention of fighters. The first mention of fighters I'm aware of was in High guard. I'm not sure if they were in the first edition, I haven't picked up one of those yet.
 
Its a bit like deciding as captain you don't need a double stateroom as the wife & kids no longer travel with you. Changing it to two staterooms is no problem, but it requires some work and will cost some credits.

Considering most small craft hangars neet to have 'airlock capability' (being capable of independent presurization/depresurization) I guess it would be more like having a submarine change the size of its torpedo (or missiles) tubes to fit diferent sized ones.

I'm not an expert in ship refitting (more true, I have no idea about it), but I think to have readed that its more usual to adapt new torpedoes/missiles to existing submarine tubes than to refit the submarine tubes to fit new torpedoes/missiles (even more than usually, I can be wrong in that).
 
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I thought it was 77.

y'r right... 77. Brain cramp. there used to be a thread showing the differences from printing to printing in he 77-79 era... from 81 on, there is one stable edition of LBB...

But it made for some interesting discussions in groups with different age/printing LBB's
 
Ohhhh, things you miss when you're working 70+ hours a week. I love the concept of the mini-carrier, they're ideal for adventures.

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
RE-A7313S2-040000-44003-1 MCr 778.614 1 KTons
Bat Bear 6 11 2 Crew: 46
Bat 6 11 2 TL: 13

Cargo: 40 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 11
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.748 Cost in Quantity: MCr 683.651


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 11 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2bis Computer

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Single Fusion Gun Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.200), 2 20.000 ton Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 7.100)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 40 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700), 1 Missile Magazine (160 Missiles) (8.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.800)

COST
MCr 479.562 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.748), MCr 379.851 in Quantity, plus MCr 303.800 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the flexibility granted by its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective supplement for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor troop deployments.

The class can carry any standard 30 Td small craft in its eight external grapples, but most often carries a squadron of Puffin patrol fighters. These are supplemented by two 20 Td lifeboats that can double as barges to shuttle personnel or supplies to the surface. The ship carries a squad of marines, allowing light strike and commando operations.

Particular attention is paid in the design to habitability, with each crew member receiving a full sized stateroom; while the Commander, Squadron Leader and Marine officer receive a doublesized stateroom. The ship also has four secure staterooms that can serve as a brig for the confinement of criminals.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 45.250 30 Tons
Bat Bear 1 1 1 Crew: 2
Bat 1 1 1 TL: 13

Cargo: 0 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.453 Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.200


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 0 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (60 Missiles) (3.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.300)

COST
MCr 45.703 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.453), MCr 36.200 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
 
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