Military Grade vs. Civilian

[Ran Targas]

I know this topic has been a bone of contention during many a civil discourse on these boards. So what better than to devote a thread to it!

Plus, I'm very interested in the opinions of most of my compatriots here, contrary or otherwise

LET IT BE KNOWN: I do not favor the concept that in the Trav 'verse (regardless of the age) that standard civilian hardware/software is comparable to military tech. Outside the necessities to meet the minimal requirements of the mission, the contract specifications for each would be, IMHO, extremely different. This doesn't mean a civilian can't pay more for military style capabilities, but they are not standard fair (just like leather interior) and are not always available to civilians (like 155m howitzers and Harpoon missle launchers are today).

Generally, miltech has higher performance but also stricter requirements than civilian tech.

Some of my other gross generalizations:

- Powerplants -
(Mil) frontier fuel capable (except extreme high performance vehicles), increased PM frequency, higher repair costs and limited parts, more reliable (if PM'd), reduced efficiency
(Civ) refined fuel required, normal PM, standard repair costs, standard reliability, easy to repair, higher efficiency

- Drives -
(M) increased PM freq, high rep costs, more reliable, higher load capability (125% power, no problem)
(C) per the norm, very white bread

- Computers -
(M) faster processing, hardened against damage, less security but harder to access, non-standard protocols and languages, limited interconnectivity
(C) greater memory storage (more space for it), easier to program, very flexible

- Navigation (mix of jump/computer)-
(M) manual precip anywhere they want to if they can plot it right, capable of plotting coordinated jumps with other ships, require frequent updates
(C) plot nav beacon to nav beacon, auto precip under computer control, auto dump inside 100d (no refund)

- Weapons systems -
(M) fully automated (gunner is a formality), greater range/power, multiple target engagement, auto coordinated attack (multi-turret), auto defense, improved cycle time, improved countermeasures
(C) mostly manual, no triple mounts, average range, slower cycle time, and no missiles for merchies (really, can you see Capt. Stubbing launching Exocets from the Pacific Princess?)

Keep in mind, the reason I do this IMTU is many fold. It:
- Increases the worth of a standard Type S, giving my players reason to want to keep the old bird jumping (although not top-of-the-line Miltech, this makes them far more capable than the even showroom model freighters)
- Makes the occassional piece of working military surplus extremely rare and equally valued
- Gives the ex-mil types plenty to complain about
- Encourages a well deserved respect for even light tonnage warships
- Increases the diversity of equipment by adding plenty of tweakable characteristics (i.e. personalizes ships even more)

Please respond as you see fit! <- I am ready for flame!

 

[Whipsnade]

Ran,

That pretty much sums up MTU's civvie/military split too.

While some things may get blurred at certain times and in certain places; i.e. fuel and navigation in 'frontier' sectors like the Marches, my players never knocked over naval assets with their Beowulf or thumped real troops in a real APC with their Horronon ATV.

Navigation is one point I continually stressed as a GM. Nav databases or pilot instructions or ephemeris(sic) available to the Eneri Q. Schmoe will not rival those of the military, paramilitary (Scouts), or megacorps. Neither will Schmoe's navigational ability or navigational tools.

Jump's variable time component was my reason for this but, when jump masking was pointed out to me, it only served to bolster my ideas regarding navigation or 'jump plots'.

IMTU, 'rutters' are continually created, updated, and sought. You can jump safely between well known points using the basic information freely available at starports.

However, that information will not allow you to jump between third moon of the fifth gas giant in the Shirene system to Quadrant Three in the Zaibon system's belt. The kind of extremely detailed and constantly updated orbital information required to 'thread' that particular 'needle' is not normally available to the general public.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Ptah]

IMTU the civilian-military split for hardware is primarily based on, lower toughness/durability/redundancy, for civilian models versus military models. Civilians can buy the tougher gear but it often isn't worth the price unless you are on the frontier.

I reflect the toughness of military hardware in the ship combat damage system. Civilian designs trade toughness for tonnage and cost savings.

In implementation, I started with HG as the standard for military ships. Civilians have the option of going for non mil-spec hardware (lower durability) which usually gives both a cost and tonnage savings for the civilian. This tonnage gain and cost decrease IMTU is very important for large scale merchant shipping.

IMTU ship weapon tehcnology is pretty unrestricted at the turrent mount level. This has more to do with the nature and political situation of my homebrew universe. Spinal mounts, however, are generally restricted. You can carry defensive bays no problem and it is generally not explicitly forbidden to carry offensive bays. However, like the old west in the U.S., a man might be able to legally own a canon, gatling gun, or ironclad, but walk into town with such a thing or sail into port and the authorities are going to find some reason to "pull you over" and inspect you every time. If your packing such heat, or alot of nuclear missiles, don't even try to get near a patrolled starport or planet IMTU. MTU is pretty rough and wholly outside the core systems and major trade lanes, tension exists between major imperial factions (which all claim the right to self defense; self defense=sopinal weapons), and there are alien empires on certain borders that are havens for privateers. (Don't worry fellow citizens, your Imperium has commissioned its own privateers to deal with these aggressive aliens.) These are the minor threats, the major threats are what the Imperium is really worried about.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

....
Navigation is one point I continually stressed as a GM. Nav databases or pilot instructions or ephemeris(sic) available to the Eneri Q. Schmoe will not rival those of the military, paramilitary (Scouts), or megacorps. Neither will Schmoe's navigational ability or navigational tools.

Jump's variable time component was my reason for this but, when jump masking was pointed out to me, it only served to bolster my ideas regarding navigation or 'jump plots'.

IMTU, 'rutters' are continually created, updated, and sought. You can jump safely between well known points using the basic information freely available at starports.

However, that information will not allow you to jump between third moon of the fifth gas giant in the Shirene system to Quadrant Three in the Zaibon system's belt. The kind of extremely detailed and constantly updated orbital information required to 'thread' that particular 'needle' is not normally available to the general public.

I take a similar approach to navigation IMTU based on inspiration from early 18th century views science as so important it was often reeferred to as The Navigation. Navigation information and research is highly regulated IMTU. Alot of it is posted here:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000346#000000

 

[GypsyComet]

The caveat for limited navigation data is that many systems have multiple populated worlds that are not necessarily under authoritarian control of the "mainworld". The question then arises: are these considered legitimate targets for jumping ships, or is the distinction between "spaceport" and "starport" one of customs controls, leading to outsystem jumps being automatically considered "smuggling"?

 

[RainOfSteel]

This general idea also goes along with my proposal that military ships have a higher cost of annual maintenance than civilian ships.

IIRC, I was proposing .0005, instead of .0001.

 

[Scott Martin]

Hi Ran

(long rambling post warning)

I guess that it's up to me to argue the other end of the spectrum

Note that my position is not that "civilians are all armed to the teeth" but that there is little or no restriction to "civilians" aquiring hardware that is every bit as capable (or more so) than that available to the military. That said, the vast majority of shipping, especially shipping more than a subsector away from a border, is likley to be completely unarmed.
_______________________________

I have always seen the 3I setting as more analogous to the era of the Napoleonic wars. than to our "modern" world. I get the impression that you (Ran Targas) tend to play "1970's merc in space" rather than "Dashing buccaneers in space" which makes a big difference in how your world works.

In the Napoleonic era, technological advancement was "sedate" by modern standards. There were many ships in service dating from the "last" war, and many ships "of the line" many were decades old. Remember that these are *wooden* ships, so that's a long time. This means that the difference in capability between a 40 year old warship and a newly built one would be more analogous to a (modern) 2-4 year tech gap than even a decade gap. Given (IIRC) that the 3I seems to update their hardware on an irregular 40-80 *year* cycle, this seems to me to be a closer "technological" parallel. With a 2+ TL gap between "line" units and "reserve" units this impression gets stronger (especially if you look at some English armoury inventories in the Napoleonic era. IIRC some still had bows and armour, and a significant amount of armour was sold at "scrap metal" prices in the 18th and 19th centuries in England)

Purpose built "Warships" and nominally civilian "Privateers" were often laid down in the same yards, constructed by the same personnell, and often fitted with better quality ordinance (brass instead of steel guns, cannons instead of carronades etc) They were also generally staffed by more "professional" crews (I don't see this last point being true in the 3I, since press gangs would be a poor way to get engineers) especially in the case of American privateers, many of whom were RN deserters (or escaped American citizens pressed into RN service: one of the sources of friction between England and the newly birthed USA)

As a result (at least IMTU) there will be a much more significant difference between the navies of "second rate" and "third rate" navies than will be seen between "Civilian" (well, "privately owned" anyway) and "Military" hardware from a given nation. In point of fact, the ships owned by private citizens of "second rate" powers were often more current than the formal navies of those powers. The North African Privateers spring to mind here...

All this is mixed in with the Feudal system that was still nominally the ruling structure, where differing loyalties result in "interesting" conflicts of interest, and the latitude allowed for determinations of prize courts.

In some "frontier" areas (Spinward marches in the 3I, The Barbary coast or the Carribian in my analogy) "Private" vessels may well be more capable than the "military" ones on post. This position is supported by Supp 5, where several lightning class cruisers were sold to "merchants" and some of these were *known* to have retained the spinal armament. In the napoleonic era, one of the cheapest sources of hulls was to buy up surplus warships at the end of hostilities. Conversion of these back to "military" spec would just mean buying the cannon as well (often for sale at the same time)

In the 3I setting it gets even more entertaining with the addition of large corporations. I'll give Al Morai as an example. It's a shipping line. It has (on the books) several military escorts. It also happens to be the government of a planet. In a war, the planetary government (which just happens to be the same people as the Al Morai board of directors) would certainly have the authority to order naval escort of shipping registered to the planet, most of which (by shocking coincidence) would just happen to be Al Morai shipping. The government would then (justifiably) be able to tell the sector governor that they were unable to spare any warships for "strike" missions because their naval assets were already dedicated to escort duty, and would be difficult to recall and reassign in a timely manner. (not being an idiot, the sector duke would probably have already reduced the hulls available to those sectors on the assumption that this would happen, and hope that other shipping would "tag along" with the Al Morai escort)

IMTU, you'd see a lot of "Auxilaries" activated to "shipping escort" duties by various governments, especially since the "governments" in question are run by the same wealthy individuals that happen to own much of the stock in megacorporations.

You can also bet that those self-same megacorporations are responsible for a lot of military "R&D" so I suspect that more than a few bleeding edge systems are "stress tested" on the hulls of privateers nominally owned by those same corporations. The level of corporate cut-outs on that ownership will vary by circumstances IYTU, but IMTU this is expected (the down side of being a "test platform" is that you can bet that there are nuke scuttling charges buried behind some of those panels labeled "do not touch")

Weaponry mounted on a "civilian" hull will depend strongly on mission: many merchant hulls (snows and coastal luggers for example) were completely unarmed in active war zones, depending on warship escort for protection. Ships intended to operate for extended periods away from support (east indiamen etc.) would carry enough armament to "discourage" harrassment, but not enough to actually protect them from a real warship. Privateers were as heavily armed as possible, since their role was to capture shipping for profit, so reducing the volume of "cargo" to carry more ordinance was perfectly acceptable.

It's probably also worth going into some of the differences between "privateers" and "pirates", but probably not in this thread. The major point to be made is that a Privateer has a way to legitimately turn his "prizes" into cash (although he risks having the prize ruled to be "out of bounds" and returned to its original owners) while a "pirate" either needs to add the prize to their fleet, find a buyer with a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude in the market for a good deal, or find a government without too many scruples: The third is why I would see the Vargr extents as harbouring so many "pirates", this would be the barbary coast of the 3I universe. Either way, this makes warships "commercial" in the context of certain historic periods, and if you are modeling YTU on an "Age of Empire" that allows privateers, then you don't have a real reason for the "civilian vs Military" split, except if it is based purely on economics. This breaks down to:
1) Guns cost money
2) If these guns don't save more in operating costs (losses to pirates / privateers) than they cost, then they shouldn't be installed
3) If you are an owner operator, then you need to factor in what your personal safety is worth: that 24 pounder may chew into your profit margins, but old bess kept your hide intact in '04 and you wouldn't dream of shipping without her.

This led to one of my issues with the 3I setting, related to the "fractional C rock" issue: any hit by a missile close enough to cause *any* damage with a chemical warhead is likely to cause *far* more damage than a nuke (the main advantage to a nuke is increased standoff range). TNE "Solved" that by intorducing Bomb pumped lasers, making *all* missiles nukes.

If you take the opinion that all missiles are nukes (definitely not the way the world worked for CT or MT, but it might go that way with T5: I'm hoping to get KKM's ironed out, so that may be an option) then the Imperial Rules of War would require that there be some way of tracking them. Were I to run a CT game now, IMTU the launch of a missile (from a merchant) would be accompanied by the self-same missile broadcasting information about it's registered purchaser and warhead yield. This in and of itself might convince a pirate that there were better pickings elsewhere, but the hassle factor would probably mean that most merchants would mount laser weaponry instead (and spare themselves of needing to pay to have an armed guard on duty at all times...)


Scott (my head is stuffed with useless trivia) Martin

 

[Scott Martin]

Hey Gipsy Comet

If your cargo never crosses the 100D limit of the mainworld, then is it "smuggling" or is it only smuggling if it is controlled according to the Imperim (or gov't of your choice)

This would make Nukes (in CT / MT) "always' being smuggled, while Explosives would only be "smuggled" if they passed within 100D of a mainworld with an appropriately high (1?) law level.

(and in a feudal system, the planetary governer may not have search and seizure authority, but as the local Naval commander he could ask the *Imperial Navy* SDB's in system to take a look)

Scott Martin

 

[GypsyComet]

My point is that the "Starport" has an extrality line, complete with customs, that seperates space and port (ie. the territory of The Imperium) from the member world. Do "spaceports" have the same? Are spaceports and the worlds they are on considered Imperial or Local? Is arriving insystem via Jump and landing on a secondary world "smuggling" because what you were carrying entered Local control without a customs check? Or is it not, implying that only the mainworld isn't "Imperial".

If a world, or the Imperium for that matter, wishes to tightly control entry to a system, then the publicly available astrogation data for that system may indeed be tailored to funnel incoming jumps to the mainworld and its Customs gate. If a system is pretty wide open, then readily available nav data will exist for the whole system.

There is the third option, which tends to be the default: It's all open because it's pretty much impossible to keep it secret, so instead the Imperium practices the "enough rope" approach: Nav data for a system includes danger zones (like particularly dense pebble belts), "no fly zones" (like the space around an out-system Navy base), and customs controls. Plan to do everything legally, or risk being caught where you shouldn't be. The Starport Authority (an Imperial body) operates, in some systems, more patrol boats than the planetary government does, but which of the two you'd rather be inspected by depends on what you're carrying and where you're headed...

I can't see the IN operating SDBs in a system unless they have a specific operation/installation to secure and need to not be using Destroyer-sized pickets. I could see Depots having squadrons of SDBs as command trainers, if nothing else, but normally a Depot has a Fleet present. Normally, if the Imperial Navy is present in a regular system, you get a fighter fly-by, a Type-T, or a Destroyer Escort on picket duty. If you are *really* unlucky, that picket will be a Cruiser or larger. Few things are quite so frightening as realizing that the "customs" ship that just went sensor-active behind you is a 50kton Battlerider...

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
My point is that the "Starport" has an extrality line, complete with customs, that seperates space and port (ie. the territory of The Imperium) from the member world. Do "spaceports" have the same?

IMTU, there are different queues:

1: Local Resident (just wave your ID)
2: Imperial Citizen (no visa required, but you get stamped)
3: Extra-territorials (prepare for cavity search)

 

[Golan2072]

IMTU civilians are limited to LBB2 ship weaponry - lasers, small missiles and sandcasters - while the military has access to HG goodies. Ofcourse, when I say "missiles" in this context I mean conventional ones - possessing a Nuke by a civilian ship without a license (which is VERY hard to get, corps get them by handing out HEFTY bribes to high-ranking military officers) is a capital crime.

On the ground, all weapons from LBB1 are OK (subject to Law Level restrictions, ofcourse), as well as man-portable slugthrowers from LBB4/Striker - from Assault Rifles to Gauss Guns up to Machine Guns. PGMP's and big explosives (beyond grenades) are allowed only to people with either a Corp Security license or a Mercenary License. Vehicular lasers up to 2MW are OK.

This may seem a bit excessive for civilians but the Solar Triumvirate has alot of frontier, with a chronic piracy problem and not-so-nice neighbouring polities (especially the Matriarchate); making civilians buy they own self-defence weapons is cheaper than increasing the (already huge) military budget and is easier to pass than raising taxes.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
The caveat for limited navigation data is that many systems have multiple populated worlds that are not necessarily under authoritarian control of the "mainworld". The question then arises: are these considered legitimate targets for jumping ships, or is the distinction between "spaceport" and "starport" one of customs controls, leading to outsystem jumps being automatically considered "smuggling"?

IMTU Imperial customs regulations apply as long as yuo are trans-shipping, thus in route to another jump point or to and from a spaceport. The spaceport is under Imperial jurisdiction (although often locally managed) spaceports are not. So if you land with a forbidden local cargo in a spaceport you are smuggling. IMTU Imperial custom restrictions are very different from local. The Imperium is primarily concerned with TL smuggling and sentient trafficing. Local customs could have a whole slew of restrictions. Some of which a ship may violate throuogh common goods on board.

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Navigation is one point I continually stressed as a GM. Nav databases or pilot instructions or ephemeris(sic) available to the Eneri Q. Schmoe will not rival those of the military, paramilitary (Scouts), or megacorps. Neither will Schmoe's navigational ability or navigational tools.

Bill, I do similarly. MTU consists of bubbles of relative civilization surrounded by mysterious dark. Having a ex-mil navigator who can plot jumps without relying on civilian nav aids (away from the normal routes) is highly desirable to those who like their privacy. Makes the nav skill all that more interesting to play with.

Originally posted by Scott Martin:
I get the impression that you (Ran Targas) tend to play "1970's merc in space" rather than "Dashing buccaneers in space" which makes a big difference in how your world works.

Scott, that is a pretty accurate analogy. I like gritty sci-fi with plenty of tension. As long as a merchant stays near the trade routes (that are heavily patrolled) they really don't have much to worry about. But PC's who like to travel in the spaces between, I highly encourage to make home improvements

Just remember though, arming yourself makes you a threat to those brandishing their own! In some cases, being a live victim is better than being a dead target!

 

[Scott Martin]

Ran

In the "Buccaneer" era, as in some areas now, "packing" can result in a higher risk, since the pirates may think "Imagine what I could do with *that* kind of firepower"

And sailing into Bristol during one of the peaceful interludes with a packet armed to the teeth would, at the least, raise eyebrows. A similar effect would be expected from a heavily armed "civilian" deep in the 3I.

Yup, you're allowed to have it, yup, you'll need it once you're on the frontier again. Did you think of storing that ordinance it at tle local subsector capital for your trip into core?

To steal the "old west" analogy, expect the "sherrif" to talk to you in every system, and explain that "this here's a nice town, t'aint at all like Dodge..."

Scott Martin

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Ran

In the "Buccaneer" era, as in some areas now, "packing" can result in a higher risk, since the pirates may think "Imagine what I could do with *that* kind of firepower"

And sailing into Bristol during one of the peaceful interludes with a packet armed to the teeth would, at the least, raise eyebrows. A similar effect would be expected from a heavily armed "civilian" deep in the 3I.

Yup, you're allowed to have it, yup, you'll need it once you're on the frontier again. Did you think of storing that ordinance it at tle local subsector capital for your trip into core?

To steal the "old west" analogy, expect the "sherrif" to talk to you in every system, and explain that "this here's a nice town, t'aint at all like Dodge..."

Scott Martin

Yep, and you boys can just store them missiles here. Now power on power down those weapons and obey the speed limit and you should have no problems.

Does anyone use the concept of pilots? IMTU in heavily trafficed systems you are not allowed to yourself pilot your starship into the "inner system" or to dock with ports. If you want to dock without a pilot you are assigned a bouy a ways out and then you shuttle any cargo or passengers from there.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Ptah:
Does anyone use the concept of pilots?

Pilots, jump rutters, normal space navigational hazards, space weather, space whales, jump space anomalies, jump krakens - I use the lot

 

[Scott Martin]

Um... This seems to have wandered off the topic of a distinction between "Civilian" and "military" hardware.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Scott Martin

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Getting down to details regarding the difference between civilian and military(1) shipping IMTU, the equipment divide boils down to a few items: computers, missiles, and armor.

- Computers cover so many things in CT and HG2; sensors, fire control, etc. IMTU, civives have a computer big enough to control their jump rating. If you want/need a bigger one you better have a good reason and a powerful patron with good political connections.

- Missiles for civilians are okay. They're primarily used to make the other guy use his lasers for something other then shooting at you. The really good missiles are military only - most of the time. Again, like with computers, if you have the right reasons and good connections you can get the really good ones.

- Armor isn't for merchantmen. Why waste cargo space? You aren't intending to get into lots of fights, are you? Need armor? Refer to better computers and better missiles.

When MT introduced various sensors to the game, my computer restrictions were applied to them; why is it again that your Beowulf needs that type of fire control?.

When TNE introduced various kinds of lasers, my missile restrictions were applied to them too.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Oops! Forget the footnote! 'Military' IMTU covers a wide variety of veseels; IN, IISS, megacorp 'route protectors', 'star mercs', and the like.

 

[Ptah]

Bill, thanks for the focus. IMTU

General: The biggest restriction is on TL of gear available. TL15 gear is reserved for the Imperium and very powerful. Which IMTU is pretty easy because only a few dozen worlds have TL15 and for none of them is it TL15 across the board. TL14 is the best civ gear you will legally find, but it's quite exspensive. The average TL is 12.5 so most gear is TL12 with select TL13 components.

Computers: The performance of civ and mil computers is the same, although the mil comps are tougher. In HG I'd simulate this by adding+1 to damage against civ comps (a comp-1 hit becomes comp-2). The mil, however, does have access to higher than normal TL comps. Civs can buy a much larger computer than they need, but in the well travelled space lanes its too much of a drain on the bottom line.

Missiles: Before TL13, civs are not allowed nuclear missiles without a special permit and closely accounting for each missile fired. After TL13, they are not such a threat and more prevalent with civs. Still if your toting alot of them expect to be boarded.

Armor: Not restricted but a real drain on the merchant margin so only used by non-merchant civs (nobles) and in dangerous regions where it is a cost of doing business.

Sensors: I use house-rules, but large sensor arrays (more than you need for a civ) are very exspensive so you will only see them on science ships or mil ships. A merchant coming into port with a big military grade sensor array may be considered a spy or pirate, and boarded, searched, computer scanned and many questions asked.

That's just MTU.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ I allow merchantmen and civies to carry decoys and defensive missile systems but not offensive missiles. Offensive implies military in my book and follows modern convention for auxiliary warships (i.e. tenders, oilers, supply ships, etc.).

As for computers; I lean toward merchants have larger storage capacity than most low tonnage warships, if only because they are less cramped for space. A merchie may also need more storage room for moving mail, keeping records, etc. Small boys such as destroyers, frigates, and corvettes would have superior processing speed to allow for automated responses and quick targetting solutions. Cruisers and capitol ships rival merchies for computer tonnage mostly because they can more afford the space.

You're right on the mark about armor. Merchies might even strip out unnecessary M-drive fuel tankage for additional cargo tonnage; who needs weeks of maneuvering fuel when you precip at the 100d limit and are met by cargo shuttles?

And finally sensors; merchants really don't need military or scientific grade equipment to navigate safely from 100d to 100d. They aren't performing planetary or stellar surveys; they aren't tracking and engaging multiple targets in a ECM rife environment; and they aren't trying to detect stealthy attackers running silent in planetary ring systems or Oort clouds. They really only need the bare minimum sensors to prevent collisions and detect navigation aids (artificial or natural). A good computerized radar, a commercial radio transceiver, an optical sensor with pattern recognition, and a gravitic sensor of some type (keyed into the jump drive/computer) may be sufficient in most cases. Why would a merchant waste tonnage on elaborate sensor suites if it ain't making him any money every run?

Hey, life as a dedicated merchant IMTU is pretty damn boring. Not much of a draw for PC's unless you like playing "Law clerks, dental assistants, and accountants".