"Meson" Guns???

[far-trader]

Hi Lexx, if it works for you and your group that is great. I know it used to for me and ours, then we started wondering. I hope what I say won't detract from your enjoyable use of it in your games. Like they say ignorance is bliss.

My biggest problem with it is the target acquisition of this decay point. Its fine if you have exact knowledge of where your target will be when your "meson" packet arrives to decay like a stationary or fixed vector target, but how can you be within 10's of meters (for many ships) across 10's or 100's of thousands of kilometers when both ships are engaged in active evasion and can be altering their vector by as much as 6g in any of 3 dimensions? If that can be answered I can look at "Meson" guns again but for mtu right now nope.

As for tractor beams they are a part of canon since at least MegaTraveller. First are (iirc) Repulsors, then Tractors, which of course combine to create Manipulators.

As for needing a jump grid to focus that's just some idle MTU pondering and yes it wouldn't affect bases, buildings, asteroids or anything else that wasn't within a jump grid. I actually quite like that as it gives a decided, and imo lacking, negative for what is otherwise an uber weapon that feels like (and yes I may be offending the gods) a Munchkin design to me.

 

[Lexx]

Well, I'm assuming that in traveller you're going to have pretty accurate targeting systems linked to fairly effective systems, so it might not be that hard to gauge range well enough to get a couple pockets of mesons to burst inside the target, and don't forget that in traveller turnd take 20 minutes, so a shot from a meson gun may represent 'peppering' an area with packets that are based on a zone of probability to hit, so there may be dozens of packets, computer timed to decay at various points in space/time around the most likely solution to the target.

Imagine this: The ships sensors and computers create a probability sphere that givev the best chance of getting a meson packet to decay inside the ship. The sphere is solid black at the center, the highest probability, fading to grey at the edges. So most of the packets are aimed into the center, with a decreasing number aimed and set to decay at various points radiating out from the center.

At least that's how I'd imagine it, since meson weapons, if they use sub atomic particles, might be affected by the uncertainty principle they might operate on a zone of probability basis, kind of like how they try to estimate the exact localtion of a particle which can't be precisely known due to uncertainty.

As for tractor beams, I'm using GT which is based on OT and it pretty well rules out tractors beams. In fact in the T20 system is said there are no tractor beams, so if you wan tto tow a ship, put on a spacesuit, go over and attach a cable to it.

 

[mike wightman]

All ships have tractor beams - they are just very short range and called gravplates

In TNE and T4 the tractor is introduced at an earlier TL than the repulsor. I'm surprised that GURPS Traveller Starships has missed them out as a high tech development TL13+.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Tweaking the space/time continuum is an interesting idea, but it's too different to the canonical explanation. It also sounds too advanced - I wouldn't allow that kind of thing until TL16+.

 

[mike wightman]

But according to new canon the old canon explanation is just a smokescreen for what "really" happens, hence the need for a new description.
As for twanging spacetime - grav plates, jump drives, grav focused lasers, inertial compensators, grav modules, the reactionless maneuver drive, repulsors, tractors - these all mess with energies and forces we don't understand, some of which involve messing with spacetime/gravity

 

[Malenfant]

Andrew - I don't think it's too advanced, considering the nature of the manipulation, which is very crude. Essentially, it's the first time that gravity manipulation is used as a weapon. It gets refined later (at TL 15+, IIRC) into repulsors, tractor beams etc.

My feeling is that the effect is more important than the cause - so long as it's having the same effect on the target a meson gun hit, then it is compatible with canon (really, is anyone really going to care in practise whether their exploding ship is being targeted by wacky "mesons" or if spacetime is being pinched inside it?). YMMV though.

 

[far-trader]

Darn, right you are Lexx, blinded by my own dislike of the "Meson" idea I totally ignored the idea of multiple shots per turn, even though the way you describe space combat is exactly the same way I always have.

Well, I guess I'll have to admit I never had a valid argument then. Just a subconscious desire to throw a wrench in the works. Yep I think I can see it working as a weapon now, however...

What about as a communicator? That's gotta be a little different. You can't very well pepper space with "Can you hear me now?" until you get a reply. That's not very secure comms, especially when either you or the receiver have to give a complete description of your movement to establish secure comms.

It gets even tougher with handheld "meson" comms due to the size of the detector element.

Maybe it would require no more than a carefully timed protocol in some cases. For example at a prearranged time your gro-po gets on his handheld set and selects the prearranged coordinates for the ship or relay satellite and links up with his coordinates. As long as he makes the first call the ship can find him. Field unit to field unit calls would have to be relayed through a fixed switchboard arrangement, kinda like voicemail. Maybe once you log in you could tie your comm to your navicomp and have it constantly relaying your exact position so the relay sat can track you to stay in comms lock.

Yep, that should work I think, even for ships. There will be a short time as your fleet forms up when you need to use alternate comms to link your systems but then your "meson" packets can all contain constant updates of the relative movements of all the fleet elements (and some of you thought Traveller computers weren't busy and way too big and overpowered

) so that "meson" comms are functioning. In this case I think any ship taking "meson" fire would need to check to maintain its "meson" comm link as if being jammed and if unsuccessful would have to resort to establishing a broadcast signal with the fleet to recieve a new "meson" comm protocol link. And that broadcast is going to likely be subject to jamming attempts as well as provide a pretty decent target lock.

I also think going active with your "meson" screen is going to cut you off from "meson" comms, unless you have external antenna elements in which case those will be destroyed by any "meson" hits. Of course if we had seperate calcualtions for antenna (as in FF&S) then we could have backups ready to deploy if that happens.

Anyway, just a few more ideas for you all to straighten me out on

 

[Lexx]

As for a meson com, in that case the mesons being emitted are not energized to the point they decay violently, and maybe there fore have much greeater range and just sort of quietly decay at some point without being noticed. Also they'd have to be modulated to carry the signal comehow, unless it's being sent as binary pulses to make a digital transmission.

 

[Lexx]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
All ships have tractor beams - they are just very short range and called gravplates

In TNE and T4 the tractor is introduced at an earlier TL than the repulsor. I'm surprised that GURPS Traveller Starships has missed them out as a high tech development TL13+.

From what I've seen, t20 missed them too....

 

[mike wightman]

Only because the weapons stop at TL15
I hope that the powers that be get round to extending the design sequences all the way to TL20 (most of it can be implied from MT anyway ).
If the world generation system can thow out a TL20 world then the TL charts and equipment tables should cover it IMHO.
YMMV

 

[far-trader]

Sigg, I agree its kinda bizarre that T20 went and filled in a couple ultra-tech items (power plants and black globes beyond TL15) but nothing else. Especially when it was all there in MT. I have also always thought that as a game that can generate up to TL20'ish the rules, and especially the design systems, should map out the specifics for that range for players and refs who are making their own universe.

Lexx, I kind of always thought that "Meson" comms would have to be digital. Not sure the idea would support any kind of signal modulation though I guess if you could vary the strength of the decay, maybe by the packet density, that could create a modulation. Hmm, maybe combine the two and have two channels per packet, a digital signal from the decay timing and a modulated signal from the decay variation.

 

[mike wightman]

Maybe we need an Extreme Stellar Sourcebook or Traveller's Aide which contains all the details for TL16-20?

 

[far-trader]

Hey now there's a good idea for a TA! Go for it Sigg

 

[Flynn]

If they do an Extreme Stellar TA, I'd definitely hope that there's playtesting on that puppy, and I'd love to be in on it!

It's just that I've seen some pretty wacked presentations of TL16+ material that I wouldn't want to see become canon, when Traveller already has a number of excellent and balanced sources for mechanics that just needs to be converted to T20.

Enjoy,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

I'd stick with what is already canon TL15+ equipment from CT, the DGP/MT TL charts, MT vehicle design tables, TNE FF&S and T4(although the TL for the anti-matter gauss rifle may have to go up a bit); even the stuff already in T20 (as Dan mentioned - a weird choise of what to include and what not to), and possibly GT too.
There would have to be some new stuff, such as the Darrian Star Trigger, and some hints at the magic TLs above 20 perhaps. Maybe we could even get Malenfants space twanger in at TL18+
(must think of a better name for it).
No jump drives beyond jump6, but fuel reduction as presented in MT, mega thrusters and meson turrets from GURPS Traveller (renamed if necessary ) etc, etc.

 

[Flynn]

Now, that sounds like the kind of plan I could support in this endeavour.

So, you think you're up for the challenge of it?

-Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

I'll run the idea past Martin first, but in a few weeeks I'll be able to spend a lot of time on it.

Converting the existing gear to T20 shouldn't be
much of a problem (I've got notes for most of it now),nor should a bit of text for each bit.

The prose for explaining what daily life in like at extreme stellar tech levels, that's the hard part

Then it would need playtesting...

 

[Flynn]

The offer stands: If you need any help, let me know...

-Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

Oh, I'll definitely need help!

Thanks for the offer Flynn

I'll be in touch once I've had a yeh or nay.

 

[savage]

Sounds more like an FFS for T20 but a good idea.

Anti-nuetrinos sound like fun too.

Savage