"Meson" Guns???

[mike wightman]

Since TA:7 mentioned for the first time in Traveller canon (AFAIK) that meson guns don't actually use mesons (apparently that was just the Terran codename while the weapon was developed) I have a couple of questions for you to think about.

If it doesn't use mesons does it use some other type of particle, and if so what is it?

Does it "really" work by converging two particle beams and then use relativistic decay of the resultant particle beam or is this description part of the Terran smokescreen too?

 

[mike wightman]

To ask the same thing a different way, do any of you have a different description of how meson guns or their equivalent work in YTU?

 

[veltyen]

Intersecting gravity waves. At the point of intersection causing "interesting" effects, not the least of which is accelerating particles to faster then light by surprise.

Think Gravy guns out of Schlock Mercenary

Basically just a militant version of repulsors

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, so the Terrans salvaged gravitic technology from Vilani warships, and promptly turned it into a weapon system

Works for me

How would screens work then, some sort of gravitic interference?

Oh, and does anyone else have any ideas for a meson gun replacement?

 

[Malenfant]

Neutrinos?

They pass through matter after all, and they also change types (there are supposed to be 3 different "flavours", IIRC). Perhaps the "meson" gun fires some kind of tweaked neutrino that decays into some exotic particle that then decays into a storm of other particles.

(clutching at straws here, I know

)

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Neutrinos?

They pass through matter after all, and they also change types (there are supposed to be 3 different "flavours", IIRC). Perhaps the "meson" gun fires some kind of tweaked neutrino that decays into some exotic particle that then decays into a storm of other particles.

(clutching at straws here, I know

)

A good idea though

I wonder if neutrinos and anti-neutrinos annihalate each other to produce secondary radiation? Can anti-neutrinos pass through ordinary matter like neutrinos?

 

[savage]

I've stuck with the original Traveller explanations and stayed clear of TA7. Seems to me alterations are a dramatic impact on the environment. Although, I'm all for clarifying the original CT...

just my 2 credits,

Savage

 

[Malenfant]

Do anti-neutrinos even exist?

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, I just googled for them
Here's an interesting link

 

[Malenfant]

Heh. From what I could follow, that involves a very big fireball, like what you get at gamma ray bursters

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way... instead of something that fires a beam that happens to blow stuff up at a certain point, how about something that just "blows up space" at the target point? A gravitic weapon, as suggested earlier, could fit the bill - something that imparts a very small "twang" or "pinch" on space-time that implodes everything in the small target area. The effect would be pretty much the same (internal explosions that bypass armour) as a meson gun hit. If there are any radiation byproducts, perhaps those could come as a result of the crude manipulation of spacetime.

"Meson screens" would then be something that stabilises spacetime in a certain volume, so it protects anything within the screen from the "pinching".

 

[mike wightman]

Now this I like

This could tie in with eventual jump projector weapons (this spacetime twang could eventually become opening a jump portal/rift at a distance)

Oh, and did you check the title page of the link?
Colliding neutron stars!!!

Maybe a ship mounted version could generate a beam of neutrinos and a beam of anti-neutrinos which intersect and annihalate at the target point. It wouldn't have the same bang as crunching two neutron stars together, but what the hell

 

[Malenfant]

Though it doesn't remove the problem that you can't use meson weapons against ships effectively unless they're really really close or you have amazing predictive software that can take into account the lightspeed delay time between yourself and the target. Though I guess you have that problem with all ranged weapons in space.

That said, a gravitic "pinch" weapon like what I basically affects a volume of space. If the volume was big enough you could use it like artillery or a barrage weapon, so ships would have to either avoid or risk passing through and being damaged by volumes of space that are merrily imploding. (of course, a sustained barrage on a specific point could possibly do something unpleasant to spacetime itself, maybe opening a rift into jumpspace or somewhere else).

EDIT: great minds think alike, eh?

This could easily be adapted into a jump inhibitor, certainly - at high TLs the "pinch" could be more refined so that it makes a "massless gravitational field" emanating from a point in space, that prevents jump drives from working or results in misjumps.

 

[Badbru]

Sigg,
your neutrinos vs anti-neutrinos has suggested another tech approach. How about parallel trainable mounts port and starboard of a ship, (maybe rail guns) one launches matter packets the other launches anti-matter packets both parallel mounts trained so that their respective payloads intersect at the target. Different tech altogether but....

 

[mike wightman]

Umm, why not just throw the anti-matter at the target?

 

[far-trader]

Yes, the gravy gun idea is interesting. I could probably make that work, maybe with some of my half formed ideas of explaining it posted eleswhere.

To recap, in that idea "Meson" guns are modelled to energize the jump grid of the target with a kind of reverse polarity charge. This creates a short lived and small macroscopic jump bubble, INSIDE the ship. The almost instant collapse of j-space inside the mirco bubble is what generates the explosion and radiation.

Meson screens would work by running a constant low level charge through the jump grid and monitoring it for changes and when the energy levels fluctuate, indicating a "Meson" hit, the energy would be dumped into the screen's discharge capacitors preventing the effect above.

Again some of the reasons I like my idea of tying it to the jump grid are:

It makes Fighters a valuable asset again (I imagine) since they would be invulnerable to "Meson" guns by lacking the jump grid necessary for the effect.

You make the other weapons a requirement even for huge ships, as defense against Fighters, and of course Riders. And it fits the the concept of Riders not having jump drives for good reason and they could dispense with "Meson" screens making them an even bigger threat.

And because "Meson" gun spinals are no longer the answer to all ships Naval tactics and ship construction are once again balanced where armor counts and all weapons are useful.

Also there's no more "Meson" blasting planetary installations so Deep "Meson" cannons are a definate threat to invading fleets.

"Meson" comms would work in a similar fashion though on a much smaller scale. Low level mainuplation of a jump grid element as the antenna producing a fluctuation that is shunted by the equally small "Meson" screen into the capacitor and the signal translated from the "hits".

Now just what kind of energy beam it is that can do this and not be affected by atmosphere or solids of planetary volume I'm not too clear on so I'll probably just stick with no "Meson" anything imtu, until convinced by a better "theory"

Anyway I am enjoying the ideas being put forward.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Though it doesn't remove the problem that you can't use meson weapons against ships effectively unless they're really really close or you have amazing predictive software that can take into account the lightspeed delay time between yourself and the target. Though I guess you have that problem with all ranged weapons in space.

Yep that whole point targetting thing is my biggest balk at the official "Meson" fire.

I imagine space combat being a saturation fire model for energy weapons. That's how I explain the 20 minute (or so) combat turns. Each turn your weapon sweeps fire through the cone of probility based on the last known position and vector of your target, and your intelligence of its maximum alteration of that vector, and your tactical intuition of the most probable action of your target, updated throughout by monitoring sensors. It is most definately not (except at very short range) a single shot fired. At those ranges you can basically kill your target if it can't fight back.

 

[Badbru]

Sigg

Doh! I should really just delete that post.
I just got on a thinking tangent wave about two intersecting particles or beams not remembering that the target itself is a third (and important) part of the equation. Someone take me off the gunnery deck and demote me to maintenance before we loose this ship

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, will fresher scrubber-3rd class do for your new rank

Don't worry about it Badbru, I know how easy it is to get caught up in tangents.

Anyway, what I'm after is a pseudo-scientific handwave to explain the effects of "meson" technology. Since the Traveller Universe doesn't like anti-matter but does like magic gravitic tech then I'd probably go with Malenfants spacetime twang - it can be adapted to fit the known properties of "meson" guns, screens and comms.

Anymore ideas out there?

 

[aramis]

Hmm..., well, the traveller meson, while not a true meson of the known types, is not a totally impossible particle. Now, if it decays into an anti-neutron and some leptons, we ave aa sudden explanation of the nature of the beast!

 

[Lexx]

I, personally, will stick with the original explanation, a sub atomic particle that decays at a certain point, releasing radiation. Until it reaches decay point it's harmless and passes thru normal matter like a neutrino.


By varing the charge in it, ou vary the the decay time and thus can make it pass thry armos and decay inside a ship, releasing energy.

The problem with the gravity concept is that if they can make a gravity beam, they why don't they have 'tractor beams'?

Also, if it needs a jump grid to work, why would it effecxt things without jump like bases, buildings, asteroids, etc?