Marine TOE

[BMonnery]

Hi,

Using book 4 I get this TO:

Company (127 men)
Company Commander (Capt), Executive (Lt), Company Sergeant (Leading Sergeant), Company Quartermaster Sergeant (Gunnery Sergeant) and 3 platoons

Platoon (41)
Platoon Leader (2LT/ LT), Platoon Sergeant (GSgt), Platoon Signaller (LCpl) and 2 sections

Section (19)= 2 Squads (of 9) and Section leader (Sgt)

Squad = 2 Fireteams of 4 (Commanded by a LCpl or Cpl) plus a Squad leader (Lance Sergeant or Cpl)

The question I have is about the battalion. This is 3 coys and about 80 extra men. 10 are immediately accountable as the officers and senior NCO, I assume the rest are logistics as I can't really see the use of maneuver support elements. After all, in a Battledress equipped Bn there is no real need for Mortars, GPMG etc. although maybe a Pioneer section.

Can people suggest what they think such a Bn HQ should consist of?

Bryn

 

[Tom Schoene]

The battalion should have some hip-pocket artillery and/or anti-armor weapons, as well as reconaissance assets. Drone missiles are canonical, I believe, and can do both recon and anti-armor. Remote multiple rocket launchers(MRLs) are also canon, though perhaps not down to the battalion level.

 

[WendellM]

Journal 12 has a TO for an Imperial Marine Task Force (not exactly what you're looking for, but also battalion size with a (company sized) command HQ, 3 line companies, and a meson battery). The HQ for it consists of a command post section (2 vehicles, 12 personnel) and communications section (2v, 8p). A point defense section (4v, 11p), nuclear damper section (7v 24p), scout section (5v, 10p), medical section (5v, 14p), maintenance section (7v, 20p), and mess & transport section (10v, 19p) are attached from the regiment. That's a total of 42 vehicles and 118 personnel:

The command post section has 1 command APC with driver, CO, XO, senior NPC, and 2 intelligence officers and 1 computer APC with driver, 3 computer techs, and 2 intel officers. Commo section has 1 communications APC (2 drivers, 3 commo techs) and 1 electronic warfare APC (driver, 3 EW techs). PD section has 3 point defense APCs (each with driver and 2 PD gunners) and an air/raft with driver and section leader. Nuclear damper section has 4 ND APCs, each with driver and 2 ND techs, and 3 ND direction APCs, each with driver, vehicle commander, and 2 techs (one of these commanders is also section commander). Scout section has 5 air/rafts, each with 2 scouts (one as driver) and command a/r with driver/scout and section leader. Med section has 1 surgical APC (driver, surgeon, 3 med assistants), 1 utility sled (diver and 2 med. ass'ts), and 3 ambulances (2 med ass'ts ea., one who drives). Maint. section has 2 recovery sleds (driver and 2 mechanics) 2 shop sleds (driver & 3 mechanics), 2 utility sleds (driver and mechanic) and a/r with driver and section commander. Mess & Transport section has 5 util sleds (driver) 4 field kitchens (cook and 2 cook's helpers, one who drives), and a/r (driver and section leader).

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
Remote multiple rocket launchers(MRLs) are also canon, though perhaps not down to the battalion level.

Light MRLs (in LBB 4) are TL11+ and should, IMHO, be usable on the battalion level; they are small (only 60 Kg), cheap (Cr500 for launcher, Cr60 per rocket) and need only one person to man them; they have a decent range (5Km) and nice damage.blast. Think of them as mass-fire mortars

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Light MRLs (in LBB 4) are TL11+ and should, IMHO, be usable on the battalion level; they are small (only 60 Kg), cheap (Cr500 for launcher, Cr60 per rocket) and need only one person to man them; they have a decent range (5Km) and nice damage.blast. Think of them as mass-fire mortars

Add in the ammo weight to that 60kg and they top out at around 560kg, loaded. Still plenty small enough to be used at the battalion level, or even down to the company.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I have always based Imperial Marine Organization on the Canon ships that carried Marines.

8 in a Squad. (Patrol Cruiser.) Two Fire Teams, one led by the Squad Leader.

35 in a Platoon. (Kinunir) 4 Squads of 8, Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant and Medic.

150 in a Company. (Azhanti High Lightning) (4 Platoons, Company Commander, XO, First Sergeant, Supply Sergeant, Armorer, Assistant Armorer, Maintenance Sergeant, Maintenance Assistant, Company Clerk, Company Medic.

Now IMTU, Imperial Fleet Marines are mostly Heavy Infantry. (Light Infantry in Battledress.) Their Armor Support is Light Fighters and their Artillery is Naval Gunfire. They don't have lots of vehicles. Armor and Artillery are not part of a Typical Batalion TO&E. (There are specialized units for situations where the Army is inappropiate, generally formed for special those specialized situations.)

An Imperial Fleet Marine Batalion would, normally, include 10 FLs, Crews and Ground Crews. (50 personnel)

100 in a Marine Batalion HQ. This includes a 35 person Recon Platoon, a 15 person Batalion Aide Station, 20 person Maintenance Section, Commander, XO, 2 Clerks, a Staff Lieutenant, the Batalion Sergeant Major, and S-1 through S-4 Staffs (6 personnel each).

600 in a Marine Batalion. (4 Companies, 1 Fighter Squadron, and Batalion HQ.)

2000 in a Brigade. (Fits on a Kokirrak.) But I don't have my notes handy on what comprises a Brigade.

 

[flykiller]

They don't have lots of vehicles.

how are they deployed?

 

[BetterThanLife]

When thinking about Marine organization and Equipment, remember, unlike the Various Armies, 75+% of the Marine Mission is combat in a Closed environment. As a rough guess only about half the citizens of the Imperium live in Traditional Cities, towns and villages above ground. Many of the Imperial systems include, floating cities, the main world being an asteroid belt, inhospitible rockballs and iceballs, desert worlds, water worlds (Underwater Arcologies), thin, dense, tainted and corrosive atmospheres. Even in nice, Earth like, environments, the Marine's first mission is usually to capture the high orbitals.

Throw in Customs inspections, Anti-Piracy operations, boarding actions, and very little Marine Missions would include Traditional (at least how we would view Traditional) Warfare. Given space requirements aboard Starships, as a limiting factor and Marine Armor and Artillery, which are of no use on most Marine missions, and they would be a rarity.

Now under most of the Traveller rulesets, given the way the system is set up and the agility, and firepower of Light Fighters, (Give them AF configuration if you like.) and a TL14-15 Light Fighter fills the role of escorting the Marines to the target (space), CAS (Close Air Support) and Armor Support (Traditional Ground Combat). If they are equipped with a Missile rack they can also be used as local Artillery, with Naval Weapons Fire being major Artillery. (IMTU the Marine FL is armed with a Pulse Laser, a Missile Rack and a VFR Gauss Gun, though EA-6 is making me rethink that combination.)

I tend to think of Imperial Marines as more like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry from Starship Troopers, (The book, not the movies) or Marines from David Weber's Honor Harrington series. Light Forces with nasty man carried weapons and Extreme Personal Armor (Battledress). Equipped with Grav belts (Built into the Battledress in T20.) for mobility in Traditional combat. Gauss Rifles, Ram Grenades and a Mix of FGMPs and Tac Launchers thrown in. (1 FGMP per Fireteam, 4 FGMP and 2 Tac Launchers per Weapons Squad in a Traditional Environment and 6 FGMP per Weapons Squad in a closed environment (1 Weapons Squad per platoon)).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They don't have lots of vehicles.

how are they deployed? </font>[/QUOTE]Naval/Marine Small craft or Drop Capsules. Brigade and higher does have organic Small Craft. (I wish I could find my notes.

)

 

[flykiller]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They don't have lots of vehicles.

how are they deployed? </font>[/QUOTE]Naval/Marine Small craft or Drop Capsules.</font>[/QUOTE](laugh) so they do have lots of vehicles, they're just not theirs.

I don't get these "drop capsules". Are these expendables? Can they return the marines to their ship if they need to retreat, or is it once the marines are dropped they either win or die?

 

[BetterThanLife]

BTW though they are equivalent to Light Fighters, the Marine Vehicle is called the MMMFV (Marine Multi Mission Fighting Vehicle.) Called, in General by the Marines, a Hummer or Humm-Vee. (Try pronouncing MMMFV.

)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They don't have lots of vehicles.

how are they deployed? </font>[/QUOTE]Naval/Marine Small craft or Drop Capsules.</font>[/QUOTE](laugh) so they do have lots of vehicles, they're just not theirs.

I don't get these "drop capsules". Are these expendables? Can they return the marines to their ship if they need to retreat, or is it once the marines are dropped they either win or die? </font>[/QUOTE]Drop Capsules are expendable. Mostly ablative Stealth materials with a stealth chute to slow it down when it gets close to the ground followed by jettisoning it and having the Battledress Grav Systems taking over. A High Tech HALO insertion. (High Altitude Low Opening, though in this case it is extremely high altitude.) Generally accompanied by 2-5 decoy capsules full of things like Chaffe Barrage Jammers, etc. per trooper for insertion into a high tech, hostile EW environment.

If approach by stealth is not required, or a show of force is more appropiate, or approach to a orbital structure, or Starship boarding operations, and for pick up, especially from a hot LZ, that is what Assault Pinaces are for. AKA Retrival Boats.

Which is why the MMMFV is part of the Marine Arsenal instead of the more traditional Tank, CAS Fighter and/or SP Artillery. (At least IMTU.) They can escort the Assault Pinnaces, cover extractions, keep an eye on suspect vessels the Marines are about to board, disrupt airdefense, etc.

 

[BetterThanLife]

How would a traditionally armed force deploy their Armor and Artillery and CAS Fighters from space? In even more Cutters, Shuttles and huge landing craft. (Requiring even more space onboard fighting vessels, that happen to be carrying Marines.)

And this space is taken up to cover the approximately 25% of the missions they would be required for? Doesn't make much sense.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Brigade and higher does have organic Small Craft. (I wish I could find my notes.

)

IMTU, a Solar Triumvirate Marine Platoon (30 men strong on 3 G-Carriers) is carried onboard a 50-dton Talon-class dropship, which is quasi-organic to them; the Alliance uses an Assault Shuttle (haven't designed it yet, should be in the 10-15 dton range) as the organic transport of each Marine squad (think of RL helicopter "cavalry").

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Brigade and higher does have organic Small Craft. (I wish I could find my notes.

)

IMTU, a Solar Triumvirate Marine Platoon (30 men strong on 3 G-Carriers) is carried onboard a 50-dton Talon-class dropship, which is quasi-organic to them; the Alliance uses an Assault Shuttle (haven't designed it yet, should be in the 10-15 dton range) as the organic transport of each Marine squad (think of RL helicopter "cavalry"). </font>[/QUOTE]I thought of that for Marines IMTU, however the problem is they are not useful for most Marine Missions, which is why I opted for Grav Belts and Battledress for Marines and adopted a Light Infantry approach. Under CT they are only as fast as a G-Carrier or Air/raft but in T20 they are as fast as any Grav APC or Grav Tank outdoors and are much quicker than the typical human indoors and/or Zero-G.

 

[flykiller]

If approach by stealth is not required, or a show of force is more appropiate, or approach to a orbital structure, or Starship boarding operations, and for pick up, especially from a hot LZ, that is what Assault Pinaces are for. AKA Retrival Boats.

so marines inserted by drop capsule cannot be retrieved until they make it safe for the pinaces to approach.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If approach by stealth is not required, or a show of force is more appropiate, or approach to a orbital structure, or Starship boarding operations, and for pick up, especially from a hot LZ, that is what Assault Pinaces are for. AKA Retrival Boats.

so marines inserted by drop capsule cannot be retrieved until they make it safe for the pinaces to approach. </font>[/QUOTE]Until someone makes it relatively safe. Which covers going into a Hot LZ with a Squadron of MMMFVs suppressing everything with a shot at them. And the Assault Pinnaces are both armed and armored so small arms alone will generally not be enough. But essentially yes the Marines are stuck there until someone comes to get them. Same as retrieving an Airborne Unit today. Another less obvious option is an Army Unit or another Marine Unit links up with them.

Technically, since Battledress is also a Vacsuit and IMTU, they are equipped with grav belts, or grav units built into their Battledress, if their battledress is not breached, they can achieve orbit without a Pinace. (Though it takes a while and the enemy is more likely to be looking for them on the way back up.

) But you would have to leave the wounded and anyone who's suit can't be patched locally behind and Marines don't leave men behind.

 

[flykiller]

airborne troops aren't meant to be dropped on primary enemy defenses. they're meant to bypass those primary defenses and attack weak rear areas, hindering enemy reinforcement action and supporting the main attack against the main defense. but if imperial marines are being dropped from orbit just what is it that they're bypassing?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
airborne troops aren't meant to be dropped on primary enemy defenses. they're meant to bypass those primary defenses and attack weak rear areas, hindering enemy reinforcement action and supporting the main attack against the main defense. but if imperial marines are being dropped from orbit just what is it that they're bypassing?

They don't have to be dropped right on top of the enemy strongpoints. (Though since they are high stealth, heavy armor and lots of firepower with a Thor Shot or missile strike timed to hit the target right before they do, I don't see why they couldn't be dropped right on a strongpoint.) This isn't like dropping the 82nd Airborne on a Target area, more like dropping Second Armor (With old Blood and Guts himself leading it) on the target. It actually works out more like a beach assault or opposed river crossing than a Traditional Airborne Assault. Remember from Orbit you can see most of what the enemy is doing and choose your LZ with whatever parameters you choose. You also get to real time Artillery Prep your target area, which is unusual in a traditional airborne operation. You can also be much more precise, since it is a powered descent at the final stages, in your LZs. (Like pick which skylight you are going through.)

 

[flykiller]

actually it does sound like an 82nd drop. if it were like dropping armor you'd be dropping armor.

ignoring the entire issue of why you'd want to drop onto any amount of resistance anyway, it seems easier on the troops to bring them down in armor away from the defenses then assault on the surface in coordination with orbital support. this would reduce casualties by minimizing troop exposure, reducing friendly fire incidents, and providing maneuvering room and fallback positions, and also result in quicker military action because of better troop coordination, better concentration of fire, and organic ground support involving direct fire, electronic warfare, and screens.