Manchuria

[caj]

Gentlemen,
Question on Manchuria? What is the Manchurian history and what type of government does she have? I play a PBEM SCL2300 game and run Manchuria. My 2300AD box set went the way of the missing socks... can't find it. I still have many of my 2300AD products but nothing details the governments. I also searched the internet and found nothing about the Manchurian History for the 2300 universe.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks
Chris

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by caj:
Gentlemen,
Question on Manchuria? What is the Manchurian history and what type of government does she have? I play a PBEM SCL2300 game and run Manchuria. My 2300AD box set went the way of the missing socks... can't find it. I still have many of my 2300AD products but nothing details the governments. I also searched the internet and found nothing about the Manchurian History for the 2300 universe.

Can anyone help me?

Thanks
Chris

Enclosed is a slightly corrupted writeup from the (GDW frequented) gENIE group from the late 80's. Its non-canon, but the closest think we have.

Manchuria is *not* China, it doesn't have a huge population base (the bulk of the population of China is in the nation of Canton). Including (?) their Korean satellite they have a population of 272 million, are fairly self sufficient and have a developed industry greater than the USA, although their tech level is much lower (their warships are Old Commercial/ TL-10 designs for example).

Note, Manchuria includes parts of Siberia, all of Tibet etc.

I also enclose my Manchurian Ground Forces Orbat for the CAW too.

(Enclosure)

n the
early 2000s, is a return to a more traditional way of government. An
hereditary monarchy was reinstated with the founding of the Xuxun
Dynasty, named after its founding member. It is a centralized empire,
with an administrative bureaucracy which is maintained by an
examination system which dates back some 1300 years. Unlike
traditional China, the people have much say in the way the government
is ran and which officials are able to take the examinations, although
it is not a true democracy.
Free elections are held to determine which people may take the
test. But other than that, comparison with more western democracies
break down. There is no constitution limiting the Emperor's power,
although in the nearly 300 years that have past since the twilight
war, no Emperor has abused his power. This is because the Emperor's
power is balanced and held in check by the rather complicated and
extensive bureaucratic system. For example; the military is divided
into national, provincial, and colonial armies; the core fleet, the
arm fleet, and the defensive fleets in the space navy and the
defensive fleet of each individual colony, and several regional fleets
for the surface fleet of earth. Each has its own ministry, and is
considered a separate 'military branch' from the rest. If the Emperor
wanted to mobilize the entire Manchurian arm forces- all these
ministries must be dealt with, not an easy job even for the ruler of
Manchuria.
Although centralized, each province has a certain autonomy,
somewhat harkening back to the feudal era of ancient china. This
tends to further balance the power of the Emperor. Most of the
provinces have nearly the same borders of pre-Twilight War provinces.
The provinces of Manchuria, with their capitals, are as follows:
.
*Beiheilong *Hanchengbao
Beijing Shi Beijing
Gansu Lanzhou
Heilongjiang Harbin
Hebei Shijiazhuang
Jilin Changchun
Liaoning Shenyang
*Nei Mong Golai (Inner Mongolia) *Ho Hotai (Hohot)
Ningxia Huizu Yinchuan
Qinghai Xining
Shaanxi *Hancheng
Shanxi Taiyuan
Tianjin Shi Tianjin
*Xinfeng *Xinshi (Vladivostok)
Xinging Uygur *Herrumaiqi (Urumqi)
Xizang (Tibet) Lasa (Lhasa)
.
Extraterrestrial Provinces:
.
Tunghu Tunghu
Hanshan (Cold Mountain) *Dingtien
Chyuantii *Congshu
Anyou Anyou
Shaoguan Shaoguan
Kwantung Changpei
Xixiang Xixiang
.
*Denotes a new province or city, a new name, or a different
post-twilight war capital.
Names in parenthesis are local, ethnical, or common names.
.
Each Province has two seperate governments. One is an
administration bureaucratic system, voted by the people and validated
by an examination system. The second is a provincial governor, a
feudal feif if you will, given by the Emperor of Manchuria. There is
often intrigue and disagreement between the two. They are suppose to
share in the responsablity of governing. In reality the
administration does most of the governing, while the feudal system
takes care of defense and military concerns.
It is, to say the least, a very complicated system, with ancient
and modern elements.
.
.
The current ruler of Manchuria is Empress Qeifaun.
.
The rulers of Manchuria since the Twilight war are:

NAME SEX BORN CROWNED DIED AGE REIGN AGE CROWNED NOTES
---------------- --- ----- ------- ------ ---- ----- ----------- -----
Xuxun M 1978 2043 2056 78 13 65
Paolongyai M 2010 2056 2078 68 22 46
Haiyang M 2033 2078 2092 59 14 45
Caocheng M 2057 2092 2143 86 51 35
Saizhun F 2081 2143 2145 64 2 62
Xongshu F 2128 2145 2219 91 74 17
Piong Gao M 2154 2219 2231 77 12 65
Naodonzhie M 2175 2229 54 NEVER RULED
Muoxangu F 2199 2231 2270 71 39 32
Nanwugui M 2229 2270 2288 59 18 41
Yituang F (2288) (11) RGNT TO 2299
Qeifuan F 2283 2288 17+ 12+ (1+) 5
.
.
.
Empress Qeifuan
.
Born- May 15, 2283
Crowned- July 26, 2288 at age of 5
Her Mother Yituang ("Aunt Yi") ruled as reagent until
2299 when Qeifuan turned 16, and, according to Manchurian law, she
gained full powers as empress of Manchuria.
.
Notes- At 17, Qeifuan is among the youngest rulers of Earth.
As ruler of Manchuria, she is one of the most powerful
persons in Asia. She became Empress at age 5 when her father Nanwugui
died of a stroke shortly after the Central Asian War. She
blames France, Japan, and Russia for her father's death.
She rarely appears in public, and is strikingly
beautiful.
.
--------------------------------------------------

Manchurian Government and relations-
.
Update as of Jan 1st, 2305
.
.
Manchuria is delighted the way the Kafer war has splintered the
relationship between France, Japan, and even Germany. Although in 2303
Empress Qeifaun pledged a small squadron of warships to the growing
number of warships that are gaurding against furthur Kafer attacks,
this was more to placate other nations and those at home fearful of
Kafers than to help france. Manchuria was done little on the french
arm except help Ukranian colonist on Aurore and Elysia on Joi by
delivering them arms, and by entering negotations with Tanstafl for a
possible small manchurian naval base on Aurore. Although cautious,
most observers beleive this is evidence that if the Kafer war heats up
again the manchus will send more aid to the Nations of the French arm.
It is in Manchurian intrest to keep the Kafer war on the French arm.
On other fronts, tensions have heated up between Russia, the Far
Eastern Republic, and Manchuria. A possible tantalum deposite on the
border of Siberia and the FER is the source of the problems. FER is a
strong ally of Manchuria, and has been getting modern arms and armour
for quite some time. Russia contends that the FER plans to invade
Siberia with Manchu help. The situation is also agrivated by a
growing Siberian Independence movement. Although it is unlikely the
FER could succesfully invade Siberia, Manchuria could use its various
military treaties with the FER as an excuse to get involved. It could
also try and help the Siberian rebels.

(Enclosure)

4 Corps (1-4) with:
5 Mech/ Armoured Divisions
7 Infantry Divisions
4 Artillery Divisions

4 Military Districts with:
12 Infantry Divisions
4 Artillery Divisions

5 Corps (RRF) with

2 Marine Divisions (plus 1 Kingdom of Korea Marine Division)
1 Commando Division
1 Airborne Division
3 Light Infantry Divisions (Mountain)
1 Mechanised Division
1 Artillery Division

6 (Colonial) Corps with:

Chyuantii Combat Walker Brigade
Han Shan Light Infantry Division (Mountain)
Composite Division with:
Chengdu Mechanised Brigade
Kwangtung Mechanised Brigade
Syuhlahm Mechanised Brigade (inc. St. Georges Battalion, British
Volunteers)
Dukou Mechanised Brigade (inc. Thunghu Battalion)

1st KOK Army with:

Special Missions Group

I KOK Corps:
1st KOK Mechanised Division
9th KOK Mechanised Division
25th KOK Mechanised Division
30th KOK Mechanised Division

III KOK Corps:
2nd KOK Mechanised Division
12th KOK Mechanised Division
21st KOK Mechanised Division

7th Volunteer Corps

1st Chinese Volunteer Division
2nd Chinese Volunteer Division
3rd Chinese Volunteer Division

 

[caj]

Thank You Brin! Again You come through!!!

Cheers
Chris

 

[rfmcdpei]

Although the figure for Manchuria's population, of just under some 2.8 billion in Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook is clearly too high, I don't think that reducing Manchuria's population to a tenth is workable. Manchuria is described as a country with a relatively backwards technology; Manchurian colonies, for instance at Han Shan, are relatively low-tech and left to fend for themselves. Despite an early start, Manchuria is only the eighth interstellar power by population

At the same time, though, Manchuria is shown as a powerful Earthbound country, capable of taking on a fairly large European coalition and winning but for a surprising Japanese intervention. A technologically backward Manchuria with a population of ~270 million people wouldn't be able to do that.

If the population in E/C S was reduced to one-third or one-half, it'd be more reasonable. One-tenth is too much.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Randy McDonald:
Although the figure for Manchuria's population, of just under some 2.8 billion in Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook is clearly too high, I don't think that reducing Manchuria's population to a tenth is workable. Manchuria is described as a country with a relatively backwards technology; Manchurian colonies, for instance at Han Shan, are relatively low-tech and left to fend for themselves. Despite an early start, Manchuria is only the eighth interstellar power by population

At the same time, though, Manchuria is shown as a powerful Earthbound country, capable of taking on a fairly large European coalition and winning but for a surprising Japanese intervention. A technologically backward Manchuria with a population of ~270 million people wouldn't be able to do that.

If the population in E/C S was reduced to one-third or one-half, it'd be more reasonable. One-tenth is too much.

1/10th is about in line with the current population (about 200 million). The majority of the population of IRL China is in the 2300 state of Canton.

Bryn

 

[Pompe]

I'd agree with mr McDonald.

The current population is more in line with 300 millions. If the Manchurian population growth to 2300 is no less than say the UK and Germany experience in the game - it'd be closer to 600 millions. If growth is larger than those currently not exactly pop-booming Euro powers, I think one can easily justify a population of up to a billion people.

So even if we don't go for the extremely high number in the E/CS or the strikingly low 200 million estimate, the mid-range offers enough for an aggressive and powerful nation capable of dominating a large portion of space despite a bit lower tech - it is certainly large compared to all the other major colonizers.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Pompe:
I'd agree with mr McDonald.

The current population is more in line with 300 millions. If the Manchurian population growth to 2300 is no less than say the UK and Germany experience in the game - it'd be closer to 600 millions. If growth is larger than those currently not exactly pop-booming Euro powers, I think one can easily justify a population of up to a billion people.

So even if we don't go for the extremely high number in the E/CS or the strikingly low 200 million estimate, the mid-range offers enough for an aggressive and powerful nation capable of dominating a large portion of space despite a bit lower tech - it is certainly large compared to all the other major colonizers.

Manchuria: 272 million
Canton: 509 million
China (Rump): 379 million

Total: 1,160 million

Certainly about right.

Bryn

 

[Pompe]

About right for what?

Lets look at what GDW published about Manchuria.

The population is given as 2.7 billion people in the E/CS. It is also called "the most powerful nation in Asia". Manchuria became the major regional power already in the 21st century, when it - rather foresightedly - seized resource-rich areas in China to support future expansion.

I don't think it is unrealistic to assume Manchuria was in a position to attract people as well as expand within the borders - and while the 2.7 billion does sound too much to me, I do not think Mr Monnery makes convincing arguments for why the 270 million figure would be the best number for 2300AD's Manchuria. The only argument I see is

1: that this number was mentioned in a non-canon discussion over ten years ago

and

2: that the present day population of what will be Manchuria (not including Korea) is in the range of about 270 million.

1: is certainly interesting, but in direct conflict with published albeit often dubious material from the E/CS. If the Genie info wasn't written by the GDW staff but just published where they attended, it is no more canon than anything put here is canon for 2320 simply because Colin and the rest of the T20 crew frequents/runs this message board.

2: is interesting as a baseline glimpse of Manchuria today and as a criticism against the 2.7 billion figure, but again the relevance of this argument is weak for saying it will still be 270 million in 2300AD. Lots of nations in 2300AD have significantly different population numbers than today, after all, it is a nuke war and three centuries ahead. Mr Monnery, do you also assume the population in the UK in 2300AD is the same as today?

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Pompe:
About right for what?

Lets look at what GDW published about Manchuria.

The population is given as 2.7 billion people in the E/CS. It is also called "the most powerful nation in Asia". Manchuria became the major regional power already in the 21st century, when it - rather foresightedly - seized resource-rich areas in China to support future expansion.

I don't think it is unrealistic to assume Manchuria was in a position to attract people as well as expand within the borders - and while the 2.7 billion does sound too much to me, I do not think Mr Monnery makes convincing arguments for why the 270 million figure would be the best number for 2300AD's Manchuria. The only argument I see is

1: that this number was mentioned in a non-canon discussion over ten years ago

and

2: that the present day population of what will be Manchuria (not including Korea) is in the range of about 270 million.

1: is certainly interesting, but in direct conflict with published albeit often dubious material from the E/CS. If the Genie info wasn't written by the GDW staff but just published where they attended, it is no more canon than anything put here is canon for 2320 simply because Colin and the rest of the T20 crew frequents/runs this message board.

2: is interesting as a baseline glimpse of Manchuria today and as a criticism against the 2.7 billion figure, but again the relevance of this argument is weak for saying it will still be 270 million in 2300AD. Lots of nations in 2300AD have significantly different population numbers than today, after all, it is a nuke war and three centuries ahead. Mr Monnery, do you also assume the population in the UK in 2300AD is the same as today?

Even with 272 million, Manchuria could still be regarded as more powerful than Canton, Indonesia or Japan.

The data I used is old (1993 ISTR) but I had population data for every Chinese Province and the ceased territories outside of China proper. Including Korea, Tibet and southern Siberia, Manchuria was ISTR about 250 million. The one that didn't fit was Rump China, who had suffered a fair crash.

The UK's 111.644 million is a lot bigger than the ~70 million of today (62 million in the UK, 4 million in Eire and 2-4 million illegals). However, Britain is not having trouble coping with these numbers which represent a 60% increase over the present vice Manchurias 1,300% increase (that's from the recesses of my memory though and may be inaccurate). China does have a problem with her current population which should ideally be (ISTR) 6-700 million.

Assuming the UK is willing to import food from the colonies the 111.644 figure is probably okay. 272 million is okay for Manchuria, but 2.72B will see mass starvation.

Bryn

 

[Pompe]

I used 1998 data for China's provinces, did not count Siberia and Korea, and got a number of about 295 million. But that's just numbers.

Even if you argue that 2.7 billion is far too high, which I agree with, you still don't give a good reason for why the _270_ million figure should be the replacement and not say, 550 million or 900 million. It is just an assumption that Manchuria will not grow in 300 years.

You mention an ideal population for China, but such ideal populations have been used many times and usually to justify lower levels of populations in Europe too. The key problem with using them is that neither today nor 2300AD is in a situation where direct subsistence dependence on the land is necessary, and that the "ideal" usually is rather subjective. Without seeing the reference, I cannot say on what it is based. But trade, technology all makes high populations possible. I can almost assuredly say that many models would claim the Netherlands to be insanely overpopulated, but it still works.

Manchuria, including pieces of Siberia and the entire sparsely populated but resource-rich west of China, has good room for expansion. It is an immense area, certainly not all lousy. Just the three coastal and near-coastal provinces of Hebei, Jilin and Liaoning are almost three times the size of Britain together.

 

[eiladayn]

At the current rate of increase our population doubles worldwide every 35 years (population is growing at 2% per year or was the last figures I saw). Accordingly wouldn't Manchuria's have doubled 8 times by 2300?

Of course you have to take into account how many died in the nuclear exchange in 2300's future history.

Pappy

 

[Anthony]

Rate of increase is falling fairly rapidly worldwide; stable or even declining population is possible. The economics of high tech society don't favor large families.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
At the current rate of increase our population doubles worldwide every 35 years (population is growing at 2% per year or was the last figures I saw). Accordingly wouldn't Manchuria's have doubled 8 times by 2300?

Of course you have to take into account how many died in the nuclear exchange in 2300's future history.

Pappy

It's not even. Japan, for example, is falling in population and is expected to stabilise at about 100 million. Italy will stabilise at ~30 million, having halved the population. China ISTR is also falling and in 20 years India will be themost populous state.

The big increases are ISTR in India, Africa and South America.

Bryn

 

[rfmcdpei]

True enough about population trends, although the current predictions of impending demographic decline should be taken with salt--it wasn't that long ago that people were predicting a natural stabilization of fertility rates around at replacement levels, and not much longer ago before that when people were predicting a decline of the French population by a third over 1930-2000 (versus robust 50% growth).

As things stand, 2300AD has described a recovery of population in the worst-affected areas of the Twilight War in Europe to levels roughly one-quarter above pre-Twilight levels--100M versus 80M Germans, 50M versus 40M Poles, 70M versus 50M Ukrainians (in greater frontiers). This recovery, taking place over three centuries in societies not particularly demographically resilient, could well have accelerated still more and reached greater heights in an area like Manchuria with a basically Third World demography.

As for imbalances in population relative to the present day, Britain's population, now roughly equivalent to that of France and Italy, was once much smaller than either--in 1700, there were only 5M English versus 50M English now. Having, say, 800-1000M people in Manchuria versus the ~300M living there now wouldn't be much of a stretch, IMO.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Randy McDonald:
True enough about population trends, although the current predictions of impending demographic decline should be taken with salt--it wasn't that long ago that people were predicting a natural stabilization of fertility rates around at replacement levels, and not much longer ago before that when people were predicting a decline of the French population by a third over 1930-2000 (versus robust 50% growth).

As things stand, 2300AD has described a recovery of population in the worst-affected areas of the Twilight War in Europe to levels roughly one-quarter above pre-Twilight levels--100M versus 80M Germans, 50M versus 40M Poles, 70M versus 50M Ukrainians (in greater frontiers). This recovery, taking place over three centuries in societies not particularly demographically resilient, could well have accelerated still more and reached greater heights in an area like Manchuria with a basically Third World demography.

As for imbalances in population relative to the present day, Britain's population, now roughly equivalent to that of France and Italy, was once much smaller than either--in 1700, there were only 5M English versus 50M English now. Having, say, 800-1000M people in Manchuria versus the ~300M living there now wouldn't be much of a stretch, IMO.

112m Brits vs 70m
108m Germans vs 80m
37m Ukrainians vs 50m
212m Americans vs 270m
1,271.3m Africans vs 719m

Nowhere else has a 13 fold increase.

Of course the real answer is someone doubled the Chinese population and applied it to Manchuria alone....

Bryn

 

[Pompe]

The may very well be the reason for the 2.7 billion figure, but it still don't justify 270 million Manchurians in 2300AD.

If what GDW _meant_ was to take _double_ the Manchurian population (but they took the entire Chinese by mistake), the present day 270 million figure suggested for 2300AD is definitely wrong too.

Manhcuria would have _double_ that number, or 550-600 million inhabitants. I don't see how the argumentation adds up to the 270 million people at all following that line of reasoning.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Azania's population, at 266.3 million, represents a sixfold increase over South Africa's current population of some 40 to 42 million. (Namibia and Botswana are also shown as Azanian, but they have four million people between them at most.) Terran Brazil's population is also twice that of modern-day Brazil, while the Incan Republic has 83.4M people living in its component territories now. Djibouti and Guyana, in the French Empire, have experienced massive population growth.

There is definitely a trend, in 2300AD material, for countries in the Third World to experience more population growth over the three centuries after the Twilight War than First or Second World countries, perhaps because of higher birth rates to start with. It seems quite possible to me that Manchuria could experience the same amount of population growth as Azania relative to pre-Twilight levels, taking the population to something short of 1000M people.

 

[Pompe]

Other examples of large population growth

Spain in 2300AD: 75 million (doubled compared with today)
Scandinavia: 44 million (doubled)
Argentina: 67 million (more than double)
Burma: 96 million (2.5x)
Bolivia: 20 million (tripled)
Chile: 38 million (tripled)
Georgia: 15 million (tripled)
East Africa: 579 million (4.5x)
Mozambique: 123 million (8x - close to Manchuria's 9x, in fact)

And the Award for greatest canonical population growth, not Manchuria's growth from 300 million to 2.7 billion, but:

Central Asian Republic: Today approx 50-60 million (depending on how much of Siberia is in), in 2300AD: 1.3 billion people. At least an 20x increase, versus Manchurias relatively puny 9x.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The Central Asian Republic's numbers can be discounted as rather too high--shifting a decimal place really would make sense. For starters, where would all the water come from? I'd feel comfortable following James Boschma in reducing the CAR's population to a tenth of what it's listed in EC/S.

 

[Murph]

I look at Manchuria as one of the major players in MTU. I think the canon underestimates the technological base of the Manchurians.