Making heads and tails out of Imperial nobility

[GypsyComet]

PC nobles are planetary nobles and not Imperial nobles. Then the planetary government applies too. If the world is Balkanized with multiple governments then even less authority. That is like the Prince of England, Prince of Japan, and the Prince of Thailand forming up to shake hands with the King of Spain. So a planet with a world spanning Monarchy has more important Nobles on planet. Off planet, the Noblity is just opens the door a crack, it is the capital and the commerce potential the noble directs that people really respect.

Knight is the lowest in the peerage and doesn't come with Land or Charter, the Baronet is the first conferred with Land and more typically a Charter. That is why the "Landed" Imperial noble is such a distinction, the Land generates an income to support the Knight (and staff), in addition to enabling the fulfillment of the Charter (or Letter of Patent) from the Crown.

Typically Knights are created by the Crown when put forward by a Baron or Count. They swear fealty to the Crown and to their Lord and are the commanders of the common militia man. The Baron (or higher) provides for the Knight and the Knight fights on their behalf.

A Baronet is created by the Crown through a Charter to raise and operate an industry to support the Crown. Think of them as the Factory Manager. A Baronet may be a city, and not a country estate running a foundry producing the armor and guns for the Crown.

A gentle reminder that a Knighthood, Baronetcy, or Baronial Charter like a Officers commission can be bought for a sum whenever the Crown coffers get low.

This feels campaign or table specific. World building in action.

The career is intended to cover nobility (privileged leadership) regardless of scope or origin, though some editions add constraints due to the era in which they are set. It is certainly reasonable to limit your campaign's PCs to planetary status, and to interpret historical examples as relevant to particular worlds.

But it is also useful to remember that every other career path is Traveller is intended to be what the character *used to do*. There is no reason to assume the Noble career is different, and planetary nobility vs Imperial is similar in concept to being a retired County Sheriff vs retired FBI: a different scope for knowledge, contacts, and old enemies, but basically similar jobs when you had them.

Also, good or evil or something in between, the Imperium has thousands of worlds, many of which have little or no trace of Terran cultural influences, or even *human* influences. There is a strong chance each will handle their nobility (or "nobility") differently.

 

[Janitor_Prime]

Not every day the future King of England; William, Prince of Wales, sits down beside you at Starbucks.

or
Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud

Persons that can influence persons in the millions and control capital in the billions.

Having PCs as Imperial Nobles would be completely unbalancing to any campaign.

Players - we need a starship to get to planet x.

Prince PC - buys starship

Players - We are going to need help to deal with this menace!

Prince PC - Calls down 2nd Royal Commando Drop Regiment of 4000 troopers, supporting troops, orbital insertion shuttles, and C2 J6 M6 starship with ortillery.

Imperial Nobles should always be a NPC Patron or Nemesis.

 

[Enoki]

Not every day the future King of England; William, Prince of Wales, sits down beside you at Starbucks.

or
Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud

Persons that can influence persons in the millions and control capital in the billions.

Having PCs as Imperial Nobles would be completely unbalancing to any campaign.

Players - we need a starship to get to planet x.

Prince PC - buys starship

Players - We are going to need help to deal with this menace!

Prince PC - Calls down 2nd Royal Commando Drop Regiment of 4000 troopers, supporting troops, orbital insertion shuttles, and C2 J6 M6 starship with ortillery.

Imperial Nobles should always be a NPC Patron or Nemesis.

See my post #20.

I'll add, that if a PC is a noble, as I stated, they MUST act the part and do the things expected of nobles. This is particularly true if the PC is ranked higher than a knight.

This means, you can't just show up somewhere on some decrepit wreck of a tramp merchant ship as part of the crew. You have noble duties to do and that includes looking and acting the part. That in turn means you spend globs of cash on things like fancy clothes, security, and staying at the right places when in port. It means you have an obligation to meet with other nobles, and do the right noble things nobles do. It is likely if you are a noble, all the other players, who aren't nobles, are part of your entourage and move to your beck and call.

If you won't or can't act the part, you are in deep, deep, trouble and so is everyone associated with you. So, you can play one but it won't be easy or fun. Society has rules, and you have to follow them, or else!

The way I'd run the scenario is more like:

Players: We need a ship to get to planet X

Prince PC: That's a nothing backwater. No reason for me to get involved. We're doing other stuff instead.

Players: But that planet needs our help!

Prince PC: Not my problem. The Duke has a ball I need to attend, and he wants to curry favor with me. You are going as my 'help.'

Or...

Ref to noble player (NP): Duke What'shisname has asked you to an audience with him.

NP: I'm not going. I don't want to be involved with the Duke's crap.

Ref: Are you sure?

NP: Yep.

What follows is a major and total $H!+ fest of disasters that befall our NP player and those associated with him.

A noble in the party becomes the PITA and if nothing else generates one disaster after another for them simply because few players who have a noble character choose to act like a noble.

 

[mike wightman]

Once you leave the noble career you may still have the noble title, but you no longer have the role and responsibility of government, you are now a Traveller.
A Traveller who is very well known, has many contacts, has many enemies, has whatever resources they managed to "get away" with.

Unless you are playing an "active duty" type campaign a PC noble does not have access to vast wealth, military assets etc, in the same way an ex-Navy admiral no longer has a flag bridge and quarters on a Tigress.

 

[whulorigan]

PC nobles are planetary nobles and not Imperial nobles. Then the planetary government applies too. If the world is Balkanized with multiple governments then even less authority. That is like the Prince of England, Prince of Japan, and the Prince of Thailand forming up to shake hands with the King of Spain. So a planet with a world spanning Monarchy has more important Nobles on planet. Off planet, the Noblity is just opens the door a crack, it is the capital and the commerce potential the noble directs that people really respect.

According to Classic Traveller Book 1 (1977) , they were Planetary Nobles, not Imperial Nobles. Classic Traveller Book 1 (1981) onward were redefined as Imperial Nobles (which was about the time that the Charted Space Setting was beginning to become the Official Setting).

Not every day the future King of England; William, Prince of Wales, sits down beside you at Starbucks.
. . .
Imperial Nobles should always be a NPC Patron or Nemesis.

Once you leave the noble career you may still have the noble title, but you no longer have the role and responsibility of government, you are now a Traveller.
A Traveller who is very well known, has many contacts, has many enemies, has whatever resources they managed to "get away" with.

Unless you are playing an "active duty" type campaign a PC noble does not have access to vast wealth, military assets etc, in the same way an ex-Navy admiral no longer has a flag bridge and quarters on a Tigress.

Essentially, utilizing the Imperial terminology breakdown, a PC Noble is currently an Honour Noble or Legacy Noble (and may have always been such, or may have become such after being relieved of a posting), or may in fact be a member of a cadet line of a family, inheriting a courtesy title with family connections, but no power or authority (again falling under Honour Noble - remember that Imperial protocols going all the way back to Classic Traveller are like some historical European protocols in that ALL members of the family are considered "Noble" and have rightful courtesy titles, as opposed to only the substantive title-holder having a proper title and the rest of the family being technically of common birth with associated derived courtesy titles).

 

[Enoki]

Once you leave the noble career you may still have the noble title, but you no longer have the role and responsibility of government, you are now a Traveller.
A Traveller who is very well known, has many contacts, has many enemies, has whatever resources they managed to "get away" with.

Unless you are playing an "active duty" type campaign a PC noble does not have access to vast wealth, military assets etc, in the same way an ex-Navy admiral no longer has a flag bridge and quarters on a Tigress.

Doesn't change that you still have a persona to maintain. Throwing away your noble title, say a Harry and Megan scenario, doesn't suddenly mean you can go tramping around as a mercenary of questionable ethics. You still have celebrity status.

 

[coliver988]

Doesn't change that you still have a persona to maintain. Throwing away your noble title, say a Harry and Megan scenario, doesn't suddenly mean you can go tramping around as a mercenary of questionable ethics. You still have celebrity status.

T5 does cover how far & wide fame goes for various professions, Classic really does not. The Imperium is a large place - go far enough away and the locals probably never even heard of whatever planet you came from other than maybe some vague recollection from school years before.

How I run nobles tends to differ based on what sort of noble: if they got it from their career (hello Navy) then it is, as posited above, more a position than a title.

But, just like elevators and warp drive, the noble prestige goes as fast as plot requires.

 

[Enoki]

T5 does cover how far & wide fame goes for various professions, Classic really does not. The Imperium is a large place - go far enough away and the locals probably never even heard of whatever planet you came from other than maybe some vague recollection from school years before.

How I run nobles tends to differ based on what sort of noble: if they got it from their career (hello Navy) then it is, as posited above, more a position than a title.

But, just like elevators and warp drive, the noble prestige goes as fast as plot requires.

I have several variants for how nobility gets run:

You earned the title or are the actual title holder. You have to act like it. You don't, trouble will follow you. Where you go is where the title is and it is expected you do your duty as a political, social, and military / business leader that you are.

You are simply related to nobility and potentially a heir to a title. You have more leeway. You can act like a rich frat boy (or sorority girl) and get away with it. People will just think you're a snobbish, privileged, spoiled piece of scum if you do. You can even be relatively broke and sponging off others if you're in this category.

The third is you are related to the noble, or a lessor noble of a noble house, and daddy dearest sent you off to get some honor in the military or business, or whatever your noble house does. Or, you have been married off to some other noble family to curry their favor with you own family. This category makes you a social climber. You can take that seriously or you can be a lazy bum about it but either way you act like a noble. The lazy bum version is as the second case above.

The last is you are a disgrace to your (or your House's) title. You've been dispossessed and the House would rather see you dead and no longer a problem. Trouble follows you wherever you go. This is the one category where you can be a criminal mercenary POS and cause trouble and gunfights all you want. You do have to steer well clear of any part of the universe where your House, or friends of your House, hold sway. The only reason you still have a title is because it's non-transferable, at least until you die. Feel free to be a revolutionary seeking to overthrow other nobles and claim their title if you like.

 

[Enoki]

In that last category, or something of a cross between that and the second version, I envision something like the minor nobility villain in the movie Rob Roy.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/rob-roy-1995

The minor noble, not holding the title, Archibald Cunningham is the sort of devious noble villain one might play. In debt, yet a flirtatious ne'er-do-well with a cunning and completely evil, narcissistic mind, who uses his position within nobility to at once evade the law while conducting all sorts of criminal acts. The other nobility tolerates him because he is discrete about his evil crimes, even if they have some hint of what he's doing.

He would be so unsavory as a character as to make the party want to, at a minimum, distance themselves from him at worst, want to kill him off. Played with other players intent on criminal action, mayhem, and depravity, he would be the leader. But that's pretty dark and evil stuff if you ask me.

 

[aramis]

I've been looking at the hierarchy of Imperial nobility and who rules what, and such, kind of as a prelude to trying to do something along the lines of a Game of Thrones thing where the nobility is doing all sorts of nefarious things while trying to grab control of either part of or the whole Imperium. But the more I look into it, the more I find that what's published to date in canon is... Well in a phrase, totally jacked up.

I'd say that something like 75% of the upper nobility (duke and above) are missing or so incomplete I can't use what's available. Most domains, sectors, and many subsectors lack any information on who's ruling them.

I think filled out, with rivalries and alliances at least generally outlined, this would make for a great spinoff game of Traveller. Throwing in the intrigues of other polities outside the 3I in a post assassination of the emperor setting would be great. The problem is, right now what's available on the nobility down to say the level of count / viscount and on houses of nobility is so hosed up it can't be done.

Any suggestions?

Here's the scoop on the imperial nobility: ONLY DUKES RULE ANYTHING.
The various lower landed nobles are there as, essentially, consuls (diplomatic representatives) of the Imperium to the local world. They're not part of the local government, nor do they have direct authority over the local government. They're also not ambassadors proper; they can't treat on behalf of the Imperium. Unless, of course, the local government opts to grant them some authority.

It ain't dune.
Barons don't rule worlds. They rule a fief, but that fief is small, just a part of the imperial lands on world, likely near the starport. They go to the subsector moot (and remember, even at J3, a subsector moot won't meet more than every other month... because if they do, the nobles are never at their fiefs) and vote in ways that may or may not have anything to do with how the local world wants them to. (Grounds for graft.)

The Honor Nobles don't even have that. They're, much like UK knighthoods, just a social nod... but generally one earned by acting the right ways in the right times and places...

 

[whulorigan]

Here's the scoop on the imperial nobility: ONLY DUKES RULE ANYTHING.
The various lower landed nobles are there as, essentially, consuls (diplomatic representatives) of the Imperium to the local world. They're not part of the local government, nor do they have direct authority over the local government. They're also not ambassadors proper; they can't treat on behalf of the Imperium. Unless, of course, the local government opts to grant them some authority.

It ain't dune.
Barons don't rule worlds. They rule a fief, but that fief is small, just a part of the imperial lands on world, likely near the starport. They go to the subsector moot (and remember, even at J3, a subsector moot won't meet more than every other month... because if they do, the nobles are never at their fiefs) and vote in ways that may or may not have anything to do with how the local world wants them to. (Grounds for graft.)

The Honor Nobles don't even have that. They're, much like UK knighthoods, just a social nod... but generally one earned by acting the right ways in the right times and places...

THIS.

Although as noted above, Planetary Nobility (on worlds where they exist, in whatever multitude of styles or titles they might employ), would generally fall into the Soc = 9-11 (12?) range and would make for fine "minor untitled nobility" at the Imperial scale (especially Soc = 10+).

 

[GypsyComet]

According to Classic Traveller Book 1 (1977) , they were Planetary Nobles, not Imperial Nobles. Classic Traveller Book 1 (1981) onward were redefined as Imperial Nobles (which was about the time that the Charted Space Setting was beginning to become the Official Setting).

Classic 77 had only implied setting until Supplement 3, so this isn't a change in a setting detail.

The statement in 77 might reasonably be applied to the so-called Proto-Traveller setting, but that's pretty vague as well. The entire setting as published is a paragraph or two and maybe a loose page of broad implications pulled from the 77 edition of the three LBBs.

 

[whulorigan]

Classic 77 had only implied setting until Supplement 3, so this isn't a change in a setting detail.

The statement in 77 might reasonably be applied to the so-called Proto-Traveller setting, but that's pretty vague as well. The entire setting as published is a paragraph or two and maybe a loose page of broad implications pulled from the 77 edition of the three LBBs.

Correct. My point was simply to be up front that there was an early version of Traveller rules that did assume High Soc was planetary nobility (as I do not know which version of CT or the the LBBs the OP may have access to).

Proto-Traveller / proto-Imperium (per the early published supplements & adventures) seem to assume that high Soc individuals either had been rewarded by the Imperium for Service with titles or were local nobility of equivalent standing.

Nevertheless, Imperial government still began (begins ... ) at the Subsector level.

 

[Enoki]

Here's the scoop on the imperial nobility: ONLY DUKES RULE ANYTHING.
The various lower landed nobles are there as, essentially, consuls (diplomatic representatives) of the Imperium to the local world. They're not part of the local government, nor do they have direct authority over the local government. They're also not ambassadors proper; they can't treat on behalf of the Imperium. Unless, of course, the local government opts to grant them some authority.

It ain't dune.
Barons don't rule worlds. They rule a fief, but that fief is small, just a part of the imperial lands on world, likely near the starport. They go to the subsector moot (and remember, even at J3, a subsector moot won't meet more than every other month... because if they do, the nobles are never at their fiefs) and vote in ways that may or may not have anything to do with how the local world wants them to. (Grounds for graft.)

The Honor Nobles don't even have that. They're, much like UK knighthoods, just a social nod... but generally one earned by acting the right ways in the right times and places...

Not in MTU. I play nobility as part of a society that is very much class stratified. Nobles run most of the stuff in the 3I, and on a lot of independent worlds. Barons and up to Count are the movers and shakers in politics, business, academia, the military, etc. I run them more like they'd be in say the 17th to early 19th Century on Earth.

They are the equivalent of governors, mayors, CEO's, flag ranked officers (generals and admirals), and the like. For example, a megacorporation might have a Viscount or Marquis as the CEO with many other nobles of varying rank being major shareholders. For sector and subsector operations barons and baronets are the operative heads.

A baronet or baron might be called on to command a regiment or division sized unit in the Imperial Army or be assigned as an admiral to the Navy depending on their background.

I also draw a legal line where anyone who is a noble, knight and up, gets automatically treated differently when it comes to dealing with the legal system. Smaller infractions and such are simply overlooked and swept under the rug. Larger ones are handled by the nobility in general most of the time to minimize scandal. Thus, a mid-rank noble, let's say a marquis, commits a murder or is some sort of other evil criminal. They are simply eliminated and replaced. The body gets buried next to Jimmy Hoffa and new on this is quashed. Family members of the murdered person are paid off to stay quiet--or else!

An example of this might be a player who is a Knight on some say, law level 9 world and is carrying a concealed semi-automatic pistol. Some local cop sees this but knows they're a Knight so he does nothing about it other than possibly mention it to his supervisor who does nothing about it. Yea, you can get away with that when you are a noble. Just don't do anything stupid with the weapon and it's all good.

In MTU, equality under the law is not something set in stone. Instead, who you are and your social status matter as to how you get treated and what rights and legal protections you receive. These can vary greatly system to system, and even planet to planet. You aren't in Kansas anymore, so-to-speak.

Think about it. You have some so-so world with say a population level of 5 run by a local baron. He has a number of knights at his beck and call. There is a non-noble bureaucracy / day to day government that runs things, but the baron calls the shots and for all intents is the law. He has a council of advisors to help with decision making but he decides.

If there are elections, they aren't for who is the nobility but maybe for mayor of a town or city, that sort of thing. Whoever gets elected better still be on the baron's good side or they might get tossed out of office for some made up reason.

The higher up nobility expects you to pay your share of taxes to the emperor on time. Other than that, they generally stay out of your business unless you are causing problems that get noticed. Then it's back to they're coming to your planet to take care of business in an abrupt and brutal way.

On taxes, I have a required for nobles "Emperor's Day" annual celebration. You get together with the other local nobles on your planet, in your system, etc., and make an oath of fealty along with an appropriate show of generosity to the emperor. This means you fork over an appropriate amount of cash or other valuables that the ranking noble then forwards to Core. Of course, there's some degree of graft and cheating here.
This means there's a pretty steady flow of wealth back to the emperor and imperial government as the time it takes for these 'gifts' to arrive will vary with distance. There is someone keeping track too so you can't weasel out on this. If you don't have the cash, then you can volunteer yourself for something in lieu of cash like a suicide mission or the like.

As for 'honor nobles,' they're nobles too. They just have less power and are not as likely to be in some position that really controls the levers of government or business.

And, always remember, In MTU, somebody's going to jail and it won't be the noble. He'll be falling on a sword, several times, instead...

 

[Condottiere]

Privilege might include being allowed to have a number of armed armsmen, except in the presence of a superior noble.

 

[aramis]

Not in MTU. I play nobility as part of a society that is very much class stratified. Nobles run most of the stuff in the 3I, and on a lot of independent worlds. Barons and up to Count are the movers and shakers in politics, business, academia, the military, etc. I run them more like they'd be in say the 17th to early 19th Century on Earth.

You asked for help from canon - Canon is what it is, and is utterly unlike what you describe for YTU. Canon won't help you, because of those differences in approach.

 

[Enoki]

You asked for help from canon - Canon is what it is, and is utterly unlike what you describe for YTU. Canon won't help you, because of those differences in approach.

I get that. I just don't see how canon can actually work and the nobility mean anything. If it's just a fancy title for honorary purposes, then social standing as a character trait is nearly meaningless in play. So, why even have it?

 

[kilemall]

I get that. I just don't see how canon can actually work and the nobility mean anything. If it's just a fancy title for honorary purposes, then social standing as a character trait is nearly meaningless in play. So, why even have it?

The title is a separate setting handling matter, SOC can still be a huge thing whether nobles have an office per se or not.

I play it differently, SOC is more EQ and I use EDU as a stratification stat. That requires a bit of reorg and making education harder to come by, but works for me. Main thing is to be consistent whether class structure or no.

 

[whulorigan]

I just don't see how canon can actually work and the nobility mean anything.

Social Standing is who you are and how you are regarded by those in important positions or levels of society. In an aristocracy, the upper levels of that ladder are reinforced by official titles that inhere within the individual personally, and usually include certain rights, privileges or maintenance to guarantee one's ability to maintain their position at that level (in whatever manner the Social Order is constructed).

But that is still separate and different from holding a position of authority, posting, or other government responsibility of some sort. What it does mean is that due to your Standing, you belong to the pool of candidates likely to be called upon or offered such a position of service.

The idea in the Third Imperium is that Local Government is generally considered to be too small a concern for Imperial involvement, so long as taxes are being paid and profits through trade are flowing through the subsector. When individual worlds disrupt that order or are determined to have something in particular worth exploiting, then the Imperium takes an interest, either directly, indirectly, or covertly. World Governments answer to the Subsector Governor, ultimately. They may do so through an appointed Noble liaison in some ministerial office (or possibly as a member of a fief or Noble See), or by direct interaction with a noble official. When uncooperative, they may answer to a Noble with the separate title of Captain, Commodore, or Admiral.

Of course, that does not mean that Imperial Nobility does not get their fingers involved with local affairs, business profits, or lucrative local power-politics by other means, so long as he or she does not disrupt Imperial interests in the region. The "Imperial Noble" could certainly marry into local aristocracy or business interests and haver an important local stake in matters. The local "King of Podunkworld" may be the descendant Imperial Noble who married into the Royal family generations ago and now inherits the title alongside his Imperial Title.

If it's just a fancy title for honorary purposes, then social standing as a character trait is nearly meaningless in play. So, why even have it?

Because Social Standing should always act as a modifier to reaction rolls and influence, liaison, and diplomacy/persuasion rolls when dealing with officials and other socially significant types (OTOH, depending upon who you are trying to persuade, sometimes it may have the opposite sign modifier). Perhaps persuasion and influence should work as roll-under you Social Standing for most cases, and roll-over for those who don't respect the Social Order.

It is certainly not meaningless, as you have already noted above - that Imperial Noble with the custom family-heirloom Handgun or personalized Laser or Gauss Pistol or other contraband may get away with far more when dealing with local officials on a high Law-Level world (i.e. roll-under Soc, with Mods) because they either want to schmooze with the big-wigs and hope to move up themselves Socially and look "accommodating" to those who can aid them, or they just don't want to mess with someone who might end up causing them to have a very bad day in the not too distant future.