Magical Traveller starship heat sinks discovered?

[Darkwing]

Finding an object is reasonably quick - each pair of images is a couple hours dirtside. Finding the orbits is much longer - you need the same object over a span of weeks. Faster moving objects take less time to plot. Three separate image sets, minimum.

And if you see an asteroid with an apparent course not towards you, you put it down as something to look at in a couple of weeks. Meantime, I have time to maneuver. In fact, I just remembered - asteroid ships. That gives a lot of mass to act as a heat sink.
Another option: Take a small ship piggyback, with plant offline. Give it a stealth hull - no significant radar cross-section. once jump is complete, enter it in suits - atmo has been in tanks since before jump. Kick it clear to aft right after emergence from jump. Go make noise like a normal ship while your rider coasts in.

 

[atpollard]

So, 800,000 minutes after I arrive, you can detect my ship, or 6.52 years out if you went for the better model.

That's funny ... I never realized how pointless the MegaTraveller sensor ranges were. I liked the rules (in general) but didn't like the idea that your ship could 'see' clear to the next system. I never thought about the implications that you would be looking at the next system over 6 years in the past.

Isn't there some limit on resolution based on the wavelength of the energy one is detecting ... an absolute maximum magnification or minimum detection limit?
Not normally an issue, but the discussion has progressed to tracking bolts and identification of ships around Gas Giants, so the resolution limits might start to become relevant.

 

[Darkwing]

I believe your point is that not all systems seem to require you to pop out at the 100d limit - you could drop out further away. You might be right that some versions don't explicitly say you will always be at the 100d limit, but I think that is an assumption many make (based on the other versions that do, and the wording in the versions that don't). If you have to pop out at the 100d limit, then stealth becomes much harder. (Keep in mind, though, that you could jump to the 100d limit of some other body, then maneuver in from there - which takes us back to the discussion as it was a moment ago.......)

I assume the 100d limit is the minimum, and you can come out as far out as desired. I also use mini-jumps to the neighborhood of the Oort cloud or the edge of the Point, for example, as a way of secreting bases. In fact, that's what I came up with for the Gaesh, which is why, IMTU, it has a reputation as Gitmo rolled up with Abu Ghraib. It doesn't exist officially, and who can find it? Without a nearby body, you need the actual coordinates to know precisely where to jump to.

More correctly (in the normal usage), stealth is technically defeating expected sensors. If you're relying on the sensor operator to be an idiot/bored/asleep, that isn't stealth, it's hope, and hope isn't a plan.

You don't rely on it, but it's all too common, IME. Defenders who assume their operators are all sharp, committed, and alert are fools who will wonder where the Greeks came from long after they got out of the horse.

This is the difference between a pickpocket and someone doing sleight of hand. The sleight of hand is saying "watch this stuff over here and not over here" as he pulls an egg out your ear, while the pickpocket is trying to have you never even know your wallet is gone (until it's too late). (And, yes, sometimes they use distraction, but it's dangerous since you probably saw them if they bumped into you or such.)

Or had a confederate do the bumping - a frequent tactic.

The point folks are trying to make is that a human presence in space requires bringing along things that make you very visible out there: heat, atmo, mobility, etc. To cover those things up is VERY hard, nigh unto impossible. To dupe someone into thinking it's something else - possible, but also hard. Mainly because most benign things in space are pretty darn cold and dark and don't give off a lot of electromagnetic noise. You're in a warm (hot, relatively), metal, noisy can that moves in the wrong way - you stand out... if someone has the capability and is looking for you.

Hard, yes, but nowhere near impossible. Anything you can figure out, someone else can counter.

You can try to make yourself look like an asteroid - but that doesn't get you much of anywhere, unless your job is to passively collect information.

A perfectly valid reason for stelathing in.

You have to move to get anywhere (like attacking the defenders or getting to a planet to smuggle stuff), and that opens up those problems of standing out. Your best option isn't really stealth (by the definition above) but pretending to be something you're not - let them see you, but not see who you really are/what you're really doing.

Another valid option. IMO, it's quite possible, but not routine. There are times when hiding in plain sight won't work (Pirates with obvious corsairs, illegal weapons and hardware, and who don't want to be ID'd as who they really are, for example), and that can be used against the players at least as much as for them. For example, if they're trying to sneak down to meet a smuggled shipment, they're facing the system's tracking arrays and lots of operators. But if I'm using it against them, then they have one sensor array and operator who doesn't know to look for anything particular unless they make a good roll. And anyone who says every 30 seconds "I roll for sensor operations" will start getting negatives - I'll tell them "your eyes glaze over as you sweep the same, boring, identical screen for the 23rd time".

And, this is the point. There isn't any way to hide yourself in space, short of getting behind something else or going totally cold and dark (no work and no power generation). However, that doesn't mean you *will* be detected or IDed in a proper fashion.

A lot of folks here think even that won't work, which is why so much heat (not work!) is being generated.

As much back and forth as I've seen on this - along with plenty of "you don't know what you're talking about" - I'm happy to see that noone has called anyone else a poopy-head or ranted about how they're never coming back. Thank y'all for keeping it civil (even if it has drifted from one orbit to another ).

I think we're all trying.

 

[Darkwing]

Sensors In Traveller

Real World sensors are not the same as Traveller sensors. For one thing, I suspect Traveller sensors have a wider arc. Even so, I think most ships are detectable, but not identifiable beyond established sensor ranges. For another thing, real world sensors wouldn't use six-sided dice when they try to detect things.

:rofl:

TTB has positive ship identification at 2 LS, for [small] military craft, and subsequent tracking up to 6 LS.

Though the actual range is not important, what is important is to see the intent of GDW - ship identification is the main issue. What's more, ship identification is not possible until the ship is practically at your front door.

So we might know someone's out there, and we know where he's going, but we won't really know who he is until we get him within sensor range.

And I argue that's true if he doesn't take steps to hide that. Where we disagree is that others argue it can't be done.

Something like this was done, by Bruce Allen Macintosh, for T4, back in 1998 or 1999. Comprehensive sensor rules. I find them completely opaque.

I'll have to look for that. Another pass might make them more translucent.

 

[Darkwing]

By now we should all understand that this discussion is essentially a proxy war for operational rules in Traveller.

There are no operational rules. Thus every solution seen on COTI is IMTU. Your solution will not satisfy others. Embrace the variety and be content.

IDIC yes,, but not contentedness. I'm seeing new perspectives in this discussion, and have more ideas on how to make my players misera - uh have fun. Hopefully, my ideas spark the same for others.

 

[Darkwing]

That's rich, coming from someone whose 'evidence' is "Trust me, I've been to sea, I know how things work in space." If that isn't an appeal to authority, I don't know what is. And to a largely irrelevant authority to boot.

Cryton is the only one who's shown me any relevan experience besides mine - which is doing the same things we're talking about.

Untrue. HG_B provided you with a link to a site full of evidence that claimed your proposal wasn't plausible. You didn't refute that evidence. You simply said (paraphrased) "The people who wrote that don't know what they're talking about. Trust me, I know." A clear case of dismissing evidence instead of refuting it.
Hans

Winchell Chung isn't evidence. Neither would Darth Wong be proof that Star Wars is better than Star Trek.

 

[PFVA63]

Yeah, but I'm discussing stealth - sneaking in. Jamming is obvious and tells the other side someone IS there.


Yes, but that'd mean a military operation - NOT necessarily an attack - but an op of some kind. And when the Iranians buzz across our course just in front of our ships, that is an op.

Stealth, in the sense of sneaking past without being detected or without being identified as a vessel to look at, is not restricted to military ops. Smugglers, Scouts checking on worlds on the verge of space, spies being inserted, and pirates would all have a legit need for the sort of stealth we've been shouting past each other about.

Hi,

In general I've been trying to describe a range of different ideas, some more "active" than others. And, overall its my understanding that "stealth" really only means you're either trying to be covert or trying to avoid detection (see for example http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stealth ). In such a case the act of making someone/something else look more suspicious in effects makes you like less suspicious and/or less detectable as anything out of the norm.

An example of this (hopefully apochryphal) would be the stories that you sometimes will hear where people who have been at a bar will send someone who has not bee drinking alcohol out to the parking lot, acting inebriated, so as to draw the attention of any law enforcement officials, allowing other patrons to pass by the pre-occupied officers, with little attention paid by the cops to these other patrons. While I really don't condone such an event, it is a good example of how you can use the tactic of misdirection to make yourself more "stealthy". In many ways this is very similar to a magician getting your to focus on his "right hand" so you don't notice what his "left hand" might be doing.

Other activities, such as jammers and the like, while they may seem more useful in a "combat" like setting could also have some usefulness to a smuggler, etc too though. For example, either two ships operating in concert, or one ship and one drone, could be used where one ship or drone is used to somehow distract the local forces while the second ship goes about its business trying to draw little attention. This may be in the form of having the 1st ship or drone sending out a false/semi-false MayDay or even by just having it enter into the system in a suspicious location, etc.

End the end I believe that such tactics are a form or "stealth" activites because you are using a variety of tactics to either avoid detection or identification as a target by making something else seem of a greater interest. As such, maybe you could call it a form of relative "stealthiness" if you wish.

 

[PFVA63]

What false signal? There is no object in space that emits a stronger signal than a spacecraft.


Hans

Except perhaps a decoy.

 

[PFVA63]

Here is a better link for you than a wikki link. http://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/

And I should have said any nation with a space program tracks any object in the near Earth environment larger than a square cm. Not doing so could cost potential lives and billions of dollars in equipment.

As for larger objects, we keep close watch on everything else in our solar system that we can find because of the possibility that it might make us extinct.

As for how those in control of a system will react, will depend on the worlds government, and whatever Imperial presence is in system.

AFAIK all TRAVELLER systems have ships reentering real space at 100D or more, and never within that limit. You can jump out within that distance, but that can cause issues like mis-jumps. This is one of the primary tropes that makes Traveller, Traveller, and I would love to know what Traveller rules set does not include this.

Oh, and if the Nukes thrown around in traveller aren't flash bang enough, nothing is. As they have no effect on sensors in the rules, your flash bang in space wont work, I think because you just cant make one big enough. (Super Nova the local star maby?)

Hi,

With regards to space debris in near orbit, I believe that the Wiki site, as well as others, makes it clear that while there is a strong attempt to trake objects in orbit there are estimated to be hindreds of thousands of objects up to 1cm in size that they currently are not able to track at this time. While some of these may be very small, those approaching the 1cm size can be an appreciable threat, as well as the tens of thousands of objects over 1cm in size that they currently do track.

As far as the 100D limit, what I was trying to indicate was that I belive some rule sets suggest that this is a minimum and that you can actually exit jump at a far greater distance from a gravity well if you wish, meaning that the volume of space in which a ship may jump into a solar system is extremely large, and getting someone close to that point to investigate or intercept an intruder may take several days to accomplish (even assuming a high-G acceleration to near that point).

As far a nuclear weapons, in Battle Rider they actually due have an effect on sensors, causing a "white out effect" in the hex where the detonation occurs. Similarly this rule set also addresses jamming with shipboard jammers and area jamming by use of a remote drone as well.

Other things to also consider are that modern technology such as current infrared sensors and Charge-Coupled Devices (CCDs) such as modern digital camera systems, which many appear to have presented as proof that stealth in space can't work since this tech exists now, can actually be very sensitive to "burnout" or other similar damage if they are exposed to a sudden unexpected "surge" in light/energy etc for which they weren't able to prepare for.

Regards

PF

 

[aramis]

So, 800,000 minutes after I arrive, you can detect my ship, or 6.52 years out if you went for the better model.

You won't arrive any sooner than your sensor image does... except by jumping.

 

[aramis]

And if you see an asteroid with an apparent course not towards you, you put it down as something to look at in a couple of weeks. Meantime, I have time to maneuver. In fact, I just remembered - asteroid ships. That gives a lot of mass to act as a heat sink.
Another option: Take a small ship piggyback, with plant offline. Give it a stealth hull - no significant radar cross-section. once jump is complete, enter it in suits - atmo has been in tanks since before jump. Kick it clear to aft right after emergence from jump. Go make noise like a normal ship while your rider coasts in.

Asteroid ships have the exact opposite issue from what you're thinking...30 to 65% of the volume is a metal or silicate matrix that is a heat reservoir - you'l have a harder time cooling it to local ambient than a normal ship, because that rock and metal has already been raised to shirtsleeve temps.

 

[Darkwing]

You won't arrive any sooner than your sensor image does... except by jumping.

That's still an awful long time to do things before you see me. I probably jumped back out before the light reached you.

Asteroid ships have the exact opposite issue from what you're thinking...30 to 65% of the volume is a metal or silicate matrix that is a heat reservoir - you'l have a harder time cooling it to local ambient than a normal ship, because that rock and metal has already been raised to shirtsleeve temps.

But you also have so much additional material around it that's cold. Latency means the heat doesn't conduct instantaneously. Berm houses maintain around 50 degrees F yearround, because the summer heat and winter cold take months to penetrate. If I'm trying to sneak by, I probably leave it open to space til I need it. It'll take at least a month for that shirtsleeve environment to permeate the rock enough to start showing above ambient outside.

 

[warwizard]

Asteroid ships have the exact opposite issue from what you're thinking...30 to 65% of the volume is a metal or silicate matrix that is a heat reservoir - you'l have a harder time cooling it to local ambient than a normal ship, because that rock and metal has already been raised to shirtsleeve temps.

Umm, no it was stated to have been cooled already.

Some basic physics facts about blackbody radiation:

The magnitude of the black body radiation an object puts out is a function of both the temprature and the surface area at that temperature. At any given temprature there is a coresponding maximum frequency that is emitted, but all of the lower frequencies are also emitted, and the intensity of every such frequency increases as the temperature increases.

So the shape of a blackbody radiation sprectra is one of a increasing amplitude over frequency and it appears to be increasing at some positive power as temperature increases.

One can calculate the total energy a 273 degree K 100 ton sphere hull will radiate to within a very fine tolerance, and the exact sprectra of this is known, and is independant of what the material is.

(The power plant is OFF so no super hot radiators need be concidered, nore the proported 250 MW output from the self same power plant)


Now let us discuss how that can be spoofed:

Inflate an envelope around the hull that has the surface area of a 10,000 ton spherical hull, this envelope is opaque to light and will absorb the ship's radiated energy and re-radiate the same energy however it will do so at a lower temperature spectrum. Change the size of the envelope as needed to adjust for the temperature spectrum you desire to emit. (*use a white globe screen to create the same effect at less mass/ difficulty.)

You can have optical emitters in your hull emit 10 X the energy at a lower temperature spectrum, trying to mask the higher temperature spectrum.

Which rule set you use strongly effects your assumptions:
Book 2 1 EP = 250 MW and you can do nothing to reduce this output level or fuel use so a ship is assummed to be generating either 250 MW per EP or none. 200 ton J1 1 G ship will be producing 500 MW of power even when not maneuvering or jumping.

T4 FF&S 200 ton Jump 1 needs something like 56.8 MW (memory may be off by a MW or two, please forgive the estimate) and life support may need less than 1 MW, computers sip power at the lower levels, and you do not have to install power consuming items like G-comp or environmental gravity, and the power plant can be throttled down to the output = to the minimum size for your TL (TL 15 that's .6 MW BTW) 1G of acceleration for a merchant ship generally takes that same 56 MW that the jump drive takes, but a lot of that heat is departing the ship as fast mass in your HEPLAR exhaust. and pumping for jump has all that jump fuel as coolant for the PP, thus supplementing the normal radiators.

All the above means is that in T4 you can have a 200 ton J-1 1G ship that operates with a 60 MW power plant, that is running at about 1 MW if not pumping for jump or maneuvering, a difference of about 2 1/2 orders of magnitude compared with the BOOK 2 assumptions. Most of you know that I'm a T4 ship design gearhead. I do not see that the heat dissapation is all that great of an issue mostly due to my seeing the issue as 2 1/2 orders of magnitude smaller than the Book 2 fans see it.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

It'll take at least a month for that shirtsleeve environment to permeate the rock enough to start showing above ambient outside.

It will also take that long to cool it down, though. And, you had it up to temperature for at least a couple of weeks just getting to where you're going (including jump). It's possible, but it is also a quandary as to *how* you do that. (hence the origin of this thread.)

 

[Darkwing]

It will also take that long to cool it down, though. And, you had it up to temperature for at least a couple of weeks just getting to where you're going (including jump). It's possible, but it is also a quandary as to *how* you do that. (hence the origin of this thread.)

Not necessarily. Jump the asteroid ship in waaaaay out. Park it in a stable orbit. Shut everything down, evacuate atmosphere, leave in the Scout you parked on the asteroid. There's a clamp for the landing gear there.

When you actually need to use it, that Scout jumps into the outer system, rendezvous' with the asteroid. Clamp on, use the Scout to get the asteroid going. Calaculate how long before you are up to speed, and how long til you're within range of the sensors for this system to be an issue. Live in the Scout up to just before then. Suit up, move in to the asteroid. Your associate undocks the Scout and drifts out far enough to jump out. You now have at least a month before the systems you bring online begin to show above ambient temp outside the rock. If you've calculated the trajectory right, the target world doesn't feel threatened by your apparent orbit, and you have lots of time to passively monitor everything in that system.
Meantime, your relief team has been on vacation in their party-provided dachas, and is now preparing to come out and kickstart their asteroid. By the time you are out of the sensor zone on the other side, they're entering it.
If the target system ever notices your rock twice, they should (if you have calculated everything correctly) assume it has a fast, eccentric orbit, but is not unusual enough to track. And this is where you get off, in the other Scout that's been parked, shut down, in the internal hangar the whole time.

All the brave Zhodani who've sacrificed so much in performing this monitoring duty proved a huge advantage when the 5th Frontier War kicked off (off-screen, since the PCs ran off to the Solomani Sphere) IMTU.

 

[mike wightman]

One can calculate the total energy a 273 degree K 100 ton sphere hull will radiate to within a very fine tolerance, and the exact sprectra of this is known, and is independant of what the material is.

Why do people who post like they understand basic physics keep getting the fundamentals wrong?

There is no degree kelvin, the unit of measurement is the kelvin (K).

Anyway, a more serious point (the above is meant to be taken tongue in cheek so don't take offence).

Which rule set you use strongly effects your assumptions:
Book 2 1 EP = 250 MW and you can do nothing to reduce this output level or fuel use so a ship is assummed to be generating either 250 MW per EP or none. 200 ton J1 1 G ship will be producing 500 MW of power even when not maneuvering or jumping.

Since you are mixing LBB2, HG and Striker then I may as well mention that in CT you are allowed to power down the power plant - check Beltstrike and TCS.

So you can cut down the heat signature just like in T4 etc as you suggest.

 

[mike wightman]

Not necessarily. Jump the asteroid ship in waaaaay out. Park it in a stable orbit. Shut everything down, evacuate atmosphere, leave in the Scout you parked on the asteroid. There's a clamp for the landing gear there.

When you actually need to use it, that Scout jumps into the outer system, rendezvous' with the asteroid. Clamp on, use the Scout to get the asteroid going. Calaculate how long before you are up to speed, and how long til you're within range of the sensors for this system to be an issue. Live in the Scout up to just before then. Suit up, move in to the asteroid. Your associate undocks the Scout and drifts out far enough to jump out. You now have at least a month before the systems you bring online begin to show above ambient temp outside the rock. If you've calculated the trajectory right, the target world doesn't feel threatened by your apparent orbit, and you have lots of time to passively monitor everything in that system.
Meantime, your relief team has been on vacation in their party-provided dachas, and is now preparing to come out and kickstart their asteroid. By the time you are out of the sensor zone on the other side, they're entering it.
If the target system ever notices your rock twice, they should (if you have calculated everything correctly) assume it has a fast, eccentric orbit, but is not unusual enough to track. And this is where you get off, in the other Scout that's been parked, shut down, in the internal hangar the whole time.

All the brave Zhodani who've sacrificed so much in performing this monitoring duty proved a huge advantage when the 5th Frontier War kicked off (off-screen, since the PCs ran off to the Solomani Sphere) IMTU.

So this cold asteroid in the out system is going to take how many years to get to the inner system?

If you accelerate it to a velocity so it can close with the inner system in months then it is going to set off every alarm on the board.

I hope the Zhos have planned ahead for that war in 35 years time...

 

[Darkwing]

So this cold asteroid in the out system is going to take how many years to get to the inner system?

If you accelerate it to a velocity so it can close with the inner system in months then it is going to set off every alarm on the board.

I hope the Zhos have planned ahead for that war in 35 years time...

I seriously doubt it will take that long! But if need be, switch from cold asteroid to comets - which do move fast enough and do not set off alarms. Starting out in the Oort cloud, you can make your own and set them on whatever orbits you like, then just rendezvous outside sensor range whenever you want a crew aboard.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I seriously doubt it will take that long! But if need be, switch from cold asteroid to comets - which do move fast enough and do not set off alarms.

And, how often does any individual comet come into the orbit of Earth? Every 76 years? The shortest orbital period is "a few years" according to one source (and doesn't originate in the Oort - those would be the ones with longer periods). I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but we're talking really long-term planning here. You certainly aren't going to send anyone within a few years of retirement........

 

[Greylond]

Actually, come to think of it, you'd get easier and faster raw intel on a system by having an agent(s) on the crew of a Free Trader. Unless the defenders are forcibly erasing sensor logs right before a ship jumps out you'd get pretty much what you'd need for deployments.

Heck, if the defending system didn't do customs inspection until after arrival at the Highport you could easily get away with sneaking in a commando unit in Low Berths hidden in large sealed cargo container/modules. Just mark them "Perishables/Fragile" and "Internal Power Supply to keep fresh" or some such. If Zhodani then use their special troops who can Teleport and you wouldn't even have to dock at the Highport, just get close.