Low Tech vs Interstellar societies...

[kilemall]

I see that there is a rather marked lack of education and knowledge on the subject of hydrogen engineering among our posters in this thread, to a degree that is rather worrisome.

Therefore, I'm assigning some "homework" to anyone who wants to be Better Informed™ about the topic.

With "enough high tech" you can solve almost any problem.
The trouble is that right now (in the real world) the necessary technology/engineering prowess to "master" the hydrogen fuel challenge has not been reliably accomplished. As evidence, I offer recent NASA issues with hydrogen leaks causing delays in multiple launches (not just the current one for Artemis 2 that got delayed). Hydrogen, especially liquid hydrogen, really doesn't want to stay confined inside of containers.



Be kind of hilarious if the most reliable method to "contain" hydrogen wasn't a (made of matter) pressure vessel that atomic hydrogen LOVES to permeate through ... but instead what you need is a "gravitic bottle" that uses (artificial) gravitic fields to confine hydrogen (much more safely) within a container/tankage volume at an acceptable level of long term reliability.

It's Spain.
By definition, the food is going to be better there than almost anywhere that is an English speaking country.

It’s probably metallic hydrogen, which requires gravitics in terms of pressure creation not force field.

 

[Condottiere]

In terms of Traveller, once you have basic fusion reactors, that covers the the needs for most of civilized practices.

What's probably an issue, would be electricity distribution to rural areas, and transportation.

The way I see it, it's more a case of trying to fuel the mobile vehicles, with something that's affordable, and relatively efficient.

 

[kilemall]

I trust you knowledge in current real world, but here we're also talking about Travller universe, and that's what I mean when I talk about superdense materials and cheap power to produce Hydrogen...



I already warned you this might be the case...



And yet, I'm warned by people who (unlike me) claims to know about the issue not to recharge batteries too often if I want them to last...



From the engineering point of view, maybe, from the legal one, I'm not so sure...

I’ve already driven next to a Waymo car in Dallas this past week, so not a next decade thing.

 

[whartung]

Once you have fusion, cheap, ubiquitous, reliable fusion, there's no going back. Once the transition is complete, that's core infrastructure.

If you're settling a new world, you bring it with you. Having a few megawatts handy is an absolute game changer.

Whatever problems, say, batteries may bring, are worth it since they can be charged "for free". Deal with it, plan around it. They're not an add on, again, its core infrastructure.

Ground vehicles have little value once grav shows up. The time, money, resources it takes to carve roads are not worth it when grav gets you anywhere you want.

These are not pioneers in covered wagons going to these places. They're, typically, well funded, well capitalized commercial concerns initially. Time is money, they'll pay for the off the shelf grav vehicles. Charged off of fusion power.

Traffic control is not an issue. Why? Because its already a solved problem. Small enough population, you use the Mark 1 eyeball. Or the auto pilot flying computer with sensors to not hit things.

Later, if necessary, you install an OFF THE SHELF traffic control system. The grav vehicles likely are already equipped to be plugged into such a system.

Because in the end, this is all just a capital expense, a cost of doing business. The VAST ABUNDANCE of planetary resources dwarfs any ancillary infrastructure costs like this. It has to be lucrative, otherwise the companies won't do it.

How do people afford this? Grav cars and what not? The companies pay them salaries to afford it. That's how they get the workers. If you have no social "safety net", then folks need to live in places, they need to pay for food, supplies, children, education, save for retirement, they need salaries that let them do that. Otherwise the people don't show up to work on your shiny new planet that you're in the process of strip mining.

If you stop pointing guns at people, in general, the Market(tm), in the large, mostly works -- despite the histories of abuses and what not, there's more general success than not.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Forty year mortgage for a quarter million starbux air/raft, is probably a thousand starbux per month, if not higher.

2. In theory, ammonia could qualify as unprocessed fuel.

3. I think the North American median worker salary, currently, is supposedly forty six plus greenbux, per hour.

4. Apparently, robots come in at two greenbux, less, per hour, including purchase cost, maintenance and depreciation over three years.

5. All things being equal, I rather suspect that the average frontier pioneer is going to opt to finance a family home.

 

[coliver988]

Am I the only person here who uses extended TLs from DGP's Grand Census?

View attachment 7435

I use them

 

[McPerth]

Am I the only person here who uses extended TLs from DGP's Grand Census?

Well, I use that of MT:WHB, as I have said some times, but I think is more or less the same...

 

[Bartleby]

The Mongoose WHB also has similar breakdowns.

 

[Enoki]

Fusion power ... and all of the high technology Stuffs™ that fusion power will both need and make possible ... will make hydrogen storage (and refinement from a variety of feedstock sources) a "solved problem" in engineering terms.


True.
Hence why I'm citing sources that I've used to learn about topics in order to share what I know with persons (like yourself) who don't know these things yet.

During WW 2, Belgium was virtually cut off from using gasoline and other petroleum products by Germany. So, the Brussels public bus system switched to ammonia.

That's TL 4 running vehicles on ammonia successfully.

https://www.icfa-conference.org/doc/03-03-02_AMANO.pdf

 

[spank]

Tell that to the pickle barrels! [OK, so the Norden only worked under perfect conditions].

On a more serious note, it set the stage for a lot of the Mercury Flight Control technology that made the difference between the Mercury Landing and the Russian bailing out reentry procedures. If Germany had the electromechanical skill for guidance, the V-2 would have been more accurate at hitting targets.

However, I agree about some of Germany’s “superiority” being an exaggeration. Russia had better Rocket theory and Robert Goddard (US) had better combustion flow design. However, Germany mass produced rockets at a price point and production rate that we still have not reached in any other rocket by any other nation … so that ain’t nothing.

They had a big advantage in labor cost......

 

[spank]

During WW 2, Belgium was virtually cut off from using gasoline and other petroleum products by Germany. So, the Brussels public bus system switched to ammonia.

That's TL 4 running vehicles on ammonia successfully.

https://www.icfa-conference.org/doc/03-03-02_AMANO.pdf

Also quite prolific were wood gasifiers,

Germany had over 500,000 Holzgas vehicles and the werhmact had over 200,000. for example this Driving School tank.

FEMA actual wrote a guide on wood gas conversion in 1989!
"Construction of a Simplified Wood GasGenerator for Fueling Internal CombustionEngines in a Petroleum Emergency"
https://www.driveonwood.com/static/media/uploads/pdf/fema_plans.pdf

 

[Grav_Moped]

I’ve already driven next to a Waymo car in Dallas this past week, so not a next decade thing.

On the other hand, it's not yet entirely reliable (Austin American-Statesman, last week). Likely by TL-9, one hopes.

Client Challenge

 

[spank]

On the other hand, it's not yet entirely reliable (Austin American-Statesman, last week). Likely by TL-9, one hopes.

Client Challenge

I'm fine with self driving cars, as long they slam on the brakes when I them off in my '82 Dodge Ares.....

 

[Spinward Flow]

On the other hand, it's not yet entirely reliable

The "march of 9s" is a long one.

• 90%
• 99%
• 99.9%
• 99.99%
• 99.999%
• 99.9999%
• 99.99999%
• ... you get the idea ...

Tesla FSD is not "completely perfected yet" but it's getting really close to being "better than humans" at driving.
The problem is the edge cases or situations that the software hasn't been trained to deal with/interpret correctly yet. As you proceed down the "march of 9s" ... the opportunities for those edge cases that need additional work become increasingly rare. This is why BILLIONS of kms driven need to be included in the training data capture in order to find those crazy edge cases and train the software to deal with them.

For anyone who would like to see the spectrum of (roll the jingle) "Bad! Bad! Tesla man can't drive!" all the way through "Tesla FSD saves another life!" ... I would recommend bookmarking the Wham Baam Teslacam youtube channel (updates on fridays).

 

[kilemall]

1. Forty year mortgage for a quarter million starbux air/raft, is probably a thousand starbux per month, if not higher.

2. In theory, ammonia could qualify as unprocessed fuel.

3. I think the North American median worker salary, currently, is supposedly forty six plus greenbux, per hour.

4. Apparently, robots come in at two greenbux, less, per hour, including purchase cost, maintenance and depreciation over three years.

5. All things being equal, I rather suspect that the average frontier pioneer is going to opt to finance a family home.

Not personal vehicle, think ranch helicopter for our TL A ag world.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1208861020708955

 

[Condottiere]

You can probably put that as business expenses, and a tax write off, if it's bought by a corporation you own.

It's not that there aren't other options, as any variety of vertical take off and landing aircraft, or hovercraft, but in terms of purchase cost, it's usually the ground vehicle, or an air/ship.

 

[RossWinn]

To add some perspective to the roads/no roads debate, I do think it's interesting that not needing traditional paved roadways can be very positive for green space and designed communities. Also, the most expensive part of maintaining a roadway is labor and that's also the most precious resource on a colony. It's really hard to make time to build roads when you're busy trying not to die.

 

[Black Vulmea]

Am I the only person here who uses extended TLs from DGP's Grand Census?

I use them

Well, I use that of MT:WHB, as I have said some times, but I think is more or less the same...

The Mongoose WHB also has similar breakdowns.

Okay, so it's not a completely off-the-wall concept that multiple editions of Traveller established TL can be a range of values on a given world.

Btw, @mike wightman, Grand Census says - introduces, maybe? - that the UWP TL ("high common") reflects the area surrounding the starport with lower TLs ("low common") elsewhere (p. 31), so the concept does have its origins in (late, non-GDW) CT. I'm guessing that carried over into MT WBH as well, though I don't know for sure.

 

[Condottiere]

I kinda suspect you have to look at it from the perspective of a given world, with a given base technological level, and presumably, industrial base.

The reason I would go for an early technological level seven default ground vehicle, is that it works, at comfortable speed, and convenient range, without organic electronics.

We'll assume that the engine could be tweaked to optimally function on an improved fuel in terms of efficiency, and production cost.

That should keep the purchase cost affordable, and make repairs and maintenance easy, without requiring a hookup to the dealer's computer.

Something that farmers should consider, when buying their specialized agricultural vehicles.

 

[kilemall]

I kinda suspect you have to look at it from the perspective of a given world, with a given base technological level, and presumably, industrial base.

The reason I would go for an early technological level seven default ground vehicle, is that it works, at comfortable speed, and convenient range, without organic electronics.

We'll assume that the engine could be tweaked to optimally function on an improved fuel in terms of efficiency, and production cost.

That should keep the purchase cost affordable, and make repairs and maintenance easy, without requiring a hookup to the dealer's computer.

Something that farmers should consider, when buying their specialized agricultural vehicles.

Big feature that should factor in is allowing for multi fuel use such as gas, alcohol and other hydrocarbons. For or ag worlds they might grow some of their fuel.

Haven’t done it yet but plan on sticking players with multi fuel use of wine and cologne. Desperate times…

Major reason for limited deployment of ICE as a product of IND worlds is the specific UWP impact on engines. Different gravity, air density, taint, hydrographic humidity and local fuel sources makes each world nearly unique and requiring different IC/prop/jet engine characteristics for economic function.

Fusion/electric and grav is desirable simply due to portable use.