One of the things I loved about MegaTraveller was the scope of the vehicle design rules -- you could do everything from TL 5 jeeps to TL F starships. While the actual hard info on T5 is pretty sparse, I'd like to know if low-tech design (at least Age of Sail level) is going to be included. There are, after all, lots of low tech worlds in most Traveller settings, and you never know when you're going to be stuck on a wooden sailboat or buzzing a starport in a stolen biplane. (Both of which happened in Traveller games I ran...)
Low Tech Design In T5?
- Thread starter Lizard_SF
- Start date
Thread resurrect.
The current design sequences I've seen let me design from around TL3 up into the TL20s. All general categories of craft are covered, but design is about at the level of gameplay. So, the answer is "yes, but not enough to make experts in XYZ feel at home", where XYZ is the particular class of craft you're designing.
For example, amphibious biplanes will all play quite similarly in Traveller.
Yup, there's wet water ship design.
MT had some printed in Challenge. Good stuff.
MT was good for covering its bases. If the concept existed, there was room for including it in the game.
Traveller 5 probably isn't going in the same direction with design as MT. It's probably more generic - the 'toolkit' is more oriented towards description and less towards detail.
Vehicles are differentiated based on type, performance, armor, volume and load, mass, speed, TL, and of course price. These values are determined based on a number of conceptual choices in the design process. Some vehicle designs also have a deckplan, of course. And I suspect there are a number of add-ons for enabling non-defaults (the capability to land on water for airplanes, for example). There are also damage considerations, since that's what can happen to vehicles in Traveller.
A couple weeks ago, I tried to mock up some bronze-age galleys and small sailing ships, and got a dozen or so different results. Enough to manage a playable but rough approximation, clearly meant for fast development ('prototyping' maybe?), rather than any sort of historical detail. That was perfectly fine by me.
Simpler systems bug many people. David Smart, for one, who I've played many a Traveller game with, feels the need for detail that's only satisfied by software and rules like FFS2 (even so, he doesn't strike me as a gearhead). Mainly he worries that a simple design misses a playable aspect. To some extent, I generally chalk this down to domain knowledge rather than design system flaws -- if we need to know about rigging, maybe Wikipedia can tell us, or perhaps that would make a nice supplement or article.
Traveller 5 probably isn't going in the same direction with design as MT. It's probably more generic - the 'toolkit' is more oriented towards description and less towards detail.
Vehicles are differentiated based on type, performance, armor, volume and load, mass, speed, TL, and of course price. These values are determined based on a number of conceptual choices in the design process. Some vehicle designs also have a deckplan, of course. And I suspect there are a number of add-ons for enabling non-defaults (the capability to land on water for airplanes, for example). There are also damage considerations, since that's what can happen to vehicles in Traveller.
A couple weeks ago, I tried to mock up some bronze-age galleys and small sailing ships, and got a dozen or so different results. Enough to manage a playable but rough approximation, clearly meant for fast development ('prototyping' maybe?), rather than any sort of historical detail. That was perfectly fine by me.
Simpler systems bug many people. David Smart, for one, who I've played many a Traveller game with, feels the need for detail that's only satisfied by software and rules like FFS2 (even so, he doesn't strike me as a gearhead). Mainly he worries that a simple design misses a playable aspect. To some extent, I generally chalk this down to domain knowledge rather than design system flaws -- if we need to know about rigging, maybe Wikipedia can tell us, or perhaps that would make a nice supplement or article.
Last edited:
To me, as much as I like a realistic system, the game impact should be solely on game effects, notably combat, but perhaps something like costs of maintenance, running and upkeep.
Combat is important if the items are ever going to be used against each other (maybe there's really no difference between Galley X and Galley Y when they ram each other, unless one happens to have a flaming catapult on it -- then you need to account for torching other ships and what affect that has on operations). But, say you're running a shallow water trading ship -- how many men on the oars? How far can they go? How fast can they go? Can they row for 1 day? 1 Month? How much should you feed/pay them? All important to merchant.
Ops and maintenance for sure. Your merchant ops figures are important considerations in a lo-tech game. And remember that protective features of the hull gives us an idea of how it takes damage due to storm, shoal, or volcano.
Crew, speed, range, and hull protection are all very helpful for recreating a group of looter pirate galleys fleeing from the destruction of Thera, ca. 1600 BC (give or take).
forgive me if I am being stupid here (I am a new poster)
but where would outside influences ie. winds, weather, currents
factor into any of a sailship, would this have to be considered at all
during the design process or is it more arbitary (as I would expect it to be
to be honest, I certainly couldnt work out anything like that and how it would effect
a ship, and I couldnt even begin to consider the variables involved)?
I think perhaps I am approaching things from the wrong angle here but its just that all
Starships etc propel themselves, sailing ships clearly dont and, with no knowledge of the new system admittedly, I just wondered how thtat would all fit together within that system
(ie. you are geared towards something that is all internal and nor reliant on external factors, well, for the most part anyhow, sensors and stuff is a different ball park again I guess what
with star acting as interference and stuff, but again, I wouldnt know about this)
Alan Hume
but where would outside influences ie. winds, weather, currents
factor into any of a sailship, would this have to be considered at all
during the design process or is it more arbitary (as I would expect it to be
to be honest, I certainly couldnt work out anything like that and how it would effect
a ship, and I couldnt even begin to consider the variables involved)?
I think perhaps I am approaching things from the wrong angle here but its just that all
Starships etc propel themselves, sailing ships clearly dont and, with no knowledge of the new system admittedly, I just wondered how thtat would all fit together within that system
(ie. you are geared towards something that is all internal and nor reliant on external factors, well, for the most part anyhow, sensors and stuff is a different ball park again I guess what
with star acting as interference and stuff, but again, I wouldnt know about this)
Alan Hume
Note, my boat knowledge consists of knowing that there are such things as boats, that they tend to mostly float, and how to actually spell the word "boat". So, the consider the following at your own peril.
I think the details of sail area affect ship design in two ways. One, is, for lack of a better word, "efficiency". That is, how much of the winds "power" can you convert in to usable energy, notably ship velocity. So, if I have a 10mph wind, and an 80% efficient sail, I would have a "maximum" potential of 8mph (see, I'm even using mph vs knots, another indicator of my expertise). I imagine with "higher tech" sails, you will get two ratings, efficiency of the sail "with the wind" and efficiency "against" the wind (i.e. tacking when ship sail at an angle to an incoming wind). Old sail designs would have 0% efficiency since they don't work at all facing the wind.
Next, is structurally. Sails take weight and what not, so there's a structure and balance factor, plus affects of multiple masts, etc. Also, obviously, sails have mass and durability which may well have design effects (old school heavy canvas sails vs high tech monofilament super strong but super light sails).
Sails don't solely affect vessel performance, naturally. Hulls are important. They too may well have "efficiency". This is similar to the sails efficiency. If I have a 70% efficient hull with an 80% efficient sail, and a 10mph wind, I'm going to be going 5.6mph (10mph * 80% * 70%).
Anyway, just making all this up, but that's how I can see sails affect overall design.
I think the details of sail area affect ship design in two ways. One, is, for lack of a better word, "efficiency". That is, how much of the winds "power" can you convert in to usable energy, notably ship velocity. So, if I have a 10mph wind, and an 80% efficient sail, I would have a "maximum" potential of 8mph (see, I'm even using mph vs knots, another indicator of my expertise). I imagine with "higher tech" sails, you will get two ratings, efficiency of the sail "with the wind" and efficiency "against" the wind (i.e. tacking when ship sail at an angle to an incoming wind). Old sail designs would have 0% efficiency since they don't work at all facing the wind.
Next, is structurally. Sails take weight and what not, so there's a structure and balance factor, plus affects of multiple masts, etc. Also, obviously, sails have mass and durability which may well have design effects (old school heavy canvas sails vs high tech monofilament super strong but super light sails).
Sails don't solely affect vessel performance, naturally. Hulls are important. They too may well have "efficiency". This is similar to the sails efficiency. If I have a 70% efficient hull with an 80% efficient sail, and a 10mph wind, I'm going to be going 5.6mph (10mph * 80% * 70%).
Anyway, just making all this up, but that's how I can see sails affect overall design.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
My nautical knowledge is (maybe) a little more than whartungs. Hey, I'm a prairie boy who's never been close to big water 
Anyway, he mentioned hulls are important to performance. He's right, or understating it. Not just efficiency wise but maximum speed also is dependent on the hull. The length and the wave it creates limit it's top speed, iirc. Something to do with keeping water under the boat
and being restricted to sailing on your own wave...
...of course hydroplanes break that limit by lifting the hull out of the water. And they have their own limits.
FWIW... I'm sure the people working on it will research it all enough to make it believably playable.
Anyway, he mentioned hulls are important to performance. He's right, or understating it. Not just efficiency wise but maximum speed also is dependent on the hull. The length and the wave it creates limit it's top speed, iirc. Something to do with keeping water under the boat
and being restricted to sailing on your own wave......of course hydroplanes break that limit by lifting the hull out of the water. And they have their own limits.
FWIW... I'm sure the people working on it will research it all enough to make it believably playable.
I've sailed a 15' sailboat on lakes.
I've learnt about sailing from the US Navy's texts.
I've been aboard a sailboat (50') underway.
I've played Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Sky Galleons of Mars, and several other very well done sets of rules with sailing.
A sail comes in one of two types: a wind catcher, and an aerofoil.
Most are actually aerofoils; the few wind catchers have typically been used to drive propellers, tho almost all can be angled to merely catch the wind.
Wind crossing the sail (at about 30-45° out from dead astern) provides the maximum thrust forward on most sailing craft, with the sails angled so that the ship is actually using the sheets as wings whose thrust is forward (essentially, a propeller). Note that this can get some ships to over 150% of wind speed (In a 10kt wind, I made 15kts speed in the water).
When the wind is blowing into the sail itself, the best designs get about 75% of windspeed, with traditional sailing vessels getting about 20%.
Forward quartering winds generally only get you 25-50% of wind speed on traditional vessels, and up to 75-100% on modern ultra high performance sailing craft.
Several non-sheet wind craft exist. One uses a trio of mast mounted vertical blades which the wind drives in circles around the mast by a gearing which is adjusted for the wind direction. These rotating blades drive a shaft, the shaft is geared to a propeller.
Another design, very poor, rather slow, is the wind paddle... which is a lightweight paddlewheel, which is then geared to a propeller. Efficiency was low, and most efficient was dead aft. I've seen one photo of one experimental. Not competitive.
A few modern designs use wind turbines to generate electrical power, and drive motors that way. More efficient transmission, less efficient conversion. About on par with mechanical linkages, from what I've read.
Currents tend to drag vessels along at between 10% and 90% of current speed. 10% if you have aimed your bow in and are low drag; 90% is not unheard of for high drag vessels side on.
Higher winds complicate matters, as the rigging can't handle the additional stress, and additionally, higher winds generate higher swells; swells may cut off stable wind, resulting in gusting and capsizing. So, in general, once winds cross (IIRC) 30-40 kts or so, most traditional craft had to furl the sails to prevent them being ripped. Modern polymer sails can be used to at least 40kts safely, and higher if designed for it... but not always, and the sea state at that point is usually too rough for the crew to work the decks. The fastest sailing vessels hit into the 50-60 kt range in ideal conditions.
That help?
I've learnt about sailing from the US Navy's texts.
I've been aboard a sailboat (50') underway.
I've played Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Sky Galleons of Mars, and several other very well done sets of rules with sailing.
A sail comes in one of two types: a wind catcher, and an aerofoil.
Most are actually aerofoils; the few wind catchers have typically been used to drive propellers, tho almost all can be angled to merely catch the wind.
Wind crossing the sail (at about 30-45° out from dead astern) provides the maximum thrust forward on most sailing craft, with the sails angled so that the ship is actually using the sheets as wings whose thrust is forward (essentially, a propeller). Note that this can get some ships to over 150% of wind speed (In a 10kt wind, I made 15kts speed in the water).
When the wind is blowing into the sail itself, the best designs get about 75% of windspeed, with traditional sailing vessels getting about 20%.
Forward quartering winds generally only get you 25-50% of wind speed on traditional vessels, and up to 75-100% on modern ultra high performance sailing craft.
Several non-sheet wind craft exist. One uses a trio of mast mounted vertical blades which the wind drives in circles around the mast by a gearing which is adjusted for the wind direction. These rotating blades drive a shaft, the shaft is geared to a propeller.
Another design, very poor, rather slow, is the wind paddle... which is a lightweight paddlewheel, which is then geared to a propeller. Efficiency was low, and most efficient was dead aft. I've seen one photo of one experimental. Not competitive.
A few modern designs use wind turbines to generate electrical power, and drive motors that way. More efficient transmission, less efficient conversion. About on par with mechanical linkages, from what I've read.
Currents tend to drag vessels along at between 10% and 90% of current speed. 10% if you have aimed your bow in and are low drag; 90% is not unheard of for high drag vessels side on.
Higher winds complicate matters, as the rigging can't handle the additional stress, and additionally, higher winds generate higher swells; swells may cut off stable wind, resulting in gusting and capsizing. So, in general, once winds cross (IIRC) 30-40 kts or so, most traditional craft had to furl the sails to prevent them being ripped. Modern polymer sails can be used to at least 40kts safely, and higher if designed for it... but not always, and the sea state at that point is usually too rough for the crew to work the decks. The fastest sailing vessels hit into the 50-60 kt range in ideal conditions.
That help?
Last edited:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A thought occurs to me related to this, are you thinking of including ice sailboat design rules as well? Such as from "Icerigger" by Alan Dean Foster (1977)? Icerigger was cool (pardon the pun) for having huge ice ships travelling long distances.
I've long wanted to use such and have fudged then with different design rules over the years but purpose driven rules would be better if done properly. Ice-boats are different from aquatic boats in that they can go very fast. As fast as the wind running before it, and faster in a tack iirc. There is no real limit to the top speed except being dependent on the wind and what little drag (practically frictionless) there is on the blades. Stresses on the sails and rigging are less because of this and of course the crew is better able to work on deck as well (relative wind on deck being near dead calm at speed).
I've long wanted to use such and have fudged then with different design rules over the years but purpose driven rules would be better if done properly. Ice-boats are different from aquatic boats in that they can go very fast. As fast as the wind running before it, and faster in a tack iirc. There is no real limit to the top speed except being dependent on the wind and what little drag (practically frictionless) there is on the blades. Stresses on the sails and rigging are less because of this and of course the crew is better able to work on deck as well (relative wind on deck being near dead calm at speed).
Ice boats -- I'll see what can be done. Most likely, there will be special fittings that can be "added" to a hull, aka hydrofoil, icefoil, fan (for small fan-boats?)
I've also been talking a bit with Don McKinney over how to represent low-tech firearms appropriately in T5. I think the main division is where smoothbore is superseded by rifled barrels, though I'm not sure.
I've also been talking a bit with Don McKinney over how to represent low-tech firearms appropriately in T5. I think the main division is where smoothbore is superseded by rifled barrels, though I'm not sure.
Last edited:
Sail efficiency isn't really the thing: you either catch the wind or you don't. as tech progressed, Sailors realized that they could tack (cross the wind to effectively go against the wind) better with triangular sails, which basically had a leading edge, like a wing, and would curve like a wing, pulling the boat along. You are correct about the hull though; the hull will limit the speed. What gives efficiency topside is the skill of either the helmsman or the officer on deck. Ever see a sailing ship movie, and there are these little strings or strips of canvas hanging in a row on the sail? They're called "telltails" and they show how efficiently you're catching the wind by lying flat against the sail. On a triangular sail, you want them to lie both flat and sideways. BTW, a triangular sail, usually forward on the boat/ship, is called a "genoa," while those huge balloon-looking sails made of extraordinarily light yet strong material are called spinnakers, the exception to the sail efficiency statement above: it lets your boat move in light winds.
Yes, I know how to sail.
And for the record, keep the design simple, but include as many different items as possible (for example boats), and use magazine/other supplement articles to flesh out each thing (klinker hulls for boats, naturally asperated engines for ground cars, improved quantum efficiency for your speeder, and better nav results with expanded sensors for your starship as examples).
Last edited:
And for a technical version of what I said... haha. Rem though, aerofoil sails didn't really come along until about the steam age.... For several thousand years it was square-riggers in various arrangements.
And in the Traveller scenario, there is no reason a TL 1 society could not make triangles of cloth instead of squares.
In fact, I think there was some archeological evidence (in RL) for prehistoric sails (two angled masts with cloth between them IIRC).
We know there were sail-equipped galleys back at the beginning of the bronze age, don't we? And of course the barge (sailless eh?) has been around as long as Egypt has.
And I suspect that the catamaran could be a TL0 boat.
Similar threads
