Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.
Low Berths (revised)
- Thread starter Rerednaw
- Start date
You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.
I'm fairly certain allergies would be checked prior to the trip.
I give platelets, and every single time they ask me about allergies - it hasn't changed in 20+ years but I suppose at some point it could change without me knowing, so in theory I suppose there could be unknown allergies.
That's one of the things about Traveller medical stuff: it seems stuck in the 70s. Give my my hypospray, darn it! I'm an RPG player, not a doctor!
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, 60:1 ratio.
Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.
Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.
Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.
And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.
You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.
Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.
So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.
At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.
Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.
With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.
As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.
Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.
Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.
Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.
And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.
You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.
Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.
So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.
At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.
Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.
With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.
As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Sigh.
1. no problem, done all the time with patients. Whoever handles medic duties for the ship will be proficient.
2a. Place sleeper in bio-bag, with filtered air supply. No microbe problem.
2b. Elimination is voluntary-controlled for 99%+ of the population - and space-suit-type elimination fittings take care of any involuntary. Anyone with vacc suit skill can fit them to the sleeper.
3. Simple anti-mocrobial spray on skin before bagging - and the bag is sterile inside.
4. Really? Never heard of breather masks that also cover the eyes (kinda like military gas masks) - if the bio-bag doesn't cover the head fully, which it will.
Looks like most of your objections are based on utterly incompetent procedures/equipment/personnel - even by 2018 standards!
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Each TL is a large technological jump, and each TL above the introduction of cold sleep would be a +1.
Yes, the economics of using an expensive piece of medical equipment for a solid week for only Cr1000 is totally crazy.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
They are based on the economics of small ship crews and greater man-hours/supply costs then what people seem to imagine Fast Passage is going to require.
Sure it can be done, but it's just not going to be slap em in a bus seat and let them slo-mo through the trip like some seem to think. It's going to require more medical overwatch and specialized medical equipment that is not going to make it 'cheap safe low berthing'.
In fact with the man-hours involved of strapping everyone in and then monitoring/adjusting, I'm guessing the life support costs even out- far less food or air, more drug cost and medics (and medic pay/stateroom/life support).
The big payoff is cramming more people into less space, so you aren't servicing 4 tons of stateroom overhead too. And again for a colonial trip for X jumps, the life support costs should stretch out over the 60 days, making your colonial ship costs more manageable while not risking the integrity of families to the risks of Low Passage.
Even if you are bound and determined to handwave away what I'm saying, just on game economics alone it shouldn't be a supercheap clever form of passage, inline with the other options cost/risk factors.
Oh I agree, except I did this for the KISS principle and to avoid an even greater change to the way the system works. I suppose we could modify it further but then unintended consequences and all that
This is the part of the whole idea that interests me the most from a logistics point of view. I assume these trips aren't always on one ship, yes? Maybe a given ship is going from where you are to where you want to wind up, but it seems that more often there'd have to be a hand off.
And how exactly does that work?
Who hands you off? Who's responsible for booking you through? I doubt you know at the onset there will happen to be passage available for you as you make those transfers. How does receiving someone work? ID verified, and all that. Who oversees the whole thing? How are tracking numbers run down in the event a package goes astray?
I was writing up a little thingy about Stewards and all this settled into my thinking. Especially in the context described in AotI, I'd enjoy figuring out a semi-plausible way of describing how this would work.
Interesting ideas. Thank you for sharing them.
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Low_Berth_Rack
Shalom,
M.
Flattened Sphere
SOC-5
My alternative to the low berth with poor survivability was the Fast Passage.
Basically, interstellar travel in an acceleration couch. You take a dose of Fast Drug at the start of your journey, and a dose of antidote at the end. You are attended by a couple of stewards who are also on Fast Drug, but the rest of the crew aren't.
Crunch the numbers ... it's a very cost-effective means of doing it. Plus, there's no danger of the ship being hijacked by any of the passengers ...
Basically, interstellar travel in an acceleration couch. You take a dose of Fast Drug at the start of your journey, and a dose of antidote at the end. You are attended by a couple of stewards who are also on Fast Drug, but the rest of the crew aren't.
Crunch the numbers ... it's a very cost-effective means of doing it. Plus, there's no danger of the ship being hijacked by any of the passengers ...
I don't see a steward functioning on fast drug. For that matter, I'm not entirely convinced someone can experience the world in any meaningful fashion on fast drug.
CT Book-2: "(T)he drug slows down personal metabolism at a ratio of approximately 60 to 1." Your brain is operating at 1/60th metabolism: most stimuli fail to trigger the sensory nerves they'd ordinarily trigger, and you are bordering on comatose. Nerves can't send messages at 1/60th speed; the neurochemical signal process pretty much either occurs or it doesn't.
That would kill you if it's affecting the autonomic nervous system, so let's rethink this a bit: the autonomic nervous system is functioning more or less normally, sending and receiving signals more or less normally but at a reduced rate as reduced metabolic demands in the body at large influence it. Most of the rest of the brain is functionally in coma in order to achieve the reduced overall metabolism being called for. Skeletal muscle metabolism is sharply reduced, except in the muscles responsible for respiration; these have to function enough for practical air exchange to occur, even if respiration rate is sharply reduced and breathing is shallow. Cardiac muscles are functioning more or less normally, they'd have to in order to get blood where it needs to be, but heart rate is dramatically suppressed as is blood pressure. Smooth muscles behave more or less normally. Overall the body is operating at a sharply reduced metabolic rate, but there is some variation that allows the body to do basic things like take in air and pump blood to the extremities, even if heart rate and respiration rate are dramatically reduced. We're getting a picture of a drug that consists of a blend of many drugs targeting specific cell types to achieve a balanced effect that sharply reduces metabolism while permitting key systems to function just enough to support life. In essence, a state of extreme hibernation has been artificially induced, with caloric consumption reduced to something on the order of 30-35 calories daily. About the only fast here is you'd pass out and wake up 60 days later with no memory of the intervening time. And, it is likely that whatever drugs are involved also affect microbes.
(Realistically speaking, I wouldn't expect any far future metabolism reduction trick to achieve better than about 4 or 5 days to 1, but that's neither here nor there.)
But, lets put aside the cell biology as being too gritty and detailed, take the whole thing as one of those fun sci-fi paradigms that create good stories even if they're not good science, and look just at the mechanics. Your arm is generating 1/60th its normal muscle energy: your limbs feel like they're solid lead, and lifting your arm is like lifting a 100-pound weight one-handed. You aren't moving around, regardless of whatever is happening inside your head.
CT Book-2: "(T)he drug slows down personal metabolism at a ratio of approximately 60 to 1." Your brain is operating at 1/60th metabolism: most stimuli fail to trigger the sensory nerves they'd ordinarily trigger, and you are bordering on comatose. Nerves can't send messages at 1/60th speed; the neurochemical signal process pretty much either occurs or it doesn't.
That would kill you if it's affecting the autonomic nervous system, so let's rethink this a bit: the autonomic nervous system is functioning more or less normally, sending and receiving signals more or less normally but at a reduced rate as reduced metabolic demands in the body at large influence it. Most of the rest of the brain is functionally in coma in order to achieve the reduced overall metabolism being called for. Skeletal muscle metabolism is sharply reduced, except in the muscles responsible for respiration; these have to function enough for practical air exchange to occur, even if respiration rate is sharply reduced and breathing is shallow. Cardiac muscles are functioning more or less normally, they'd have to in order to get blood where it needs to be, but heart rate is dramatically suppressed as is blood pressure. Smooth muscles behave more or less normally. Overall the body is operating at a sharply reduced metabolic rate, but there is some variation that allows the body to do basic things like take in air and pump blood to the extremities, even if heart rate and respiration rate are dramatically reduced. We're getting a picture of a drug that consists of a blend of many drugs targeting specific cell types to achieve a balanced effect that sharply reduces metabolism while permitting key systems to function just enough to support life. In essence, a state of extreme hibernation has been artificially induced, with caloric consumption reduced to something on the order of 30-35 calories daily. About the only fast here is you'd pass out and wake up 60 days later with no memory of the intervening time. And, it is likely that whatever drugs are involved also affect microbes.
(Realistically speaking, I wouldn't expect any far future metabolism reduction trick to achieve better than about 4 or 5 days to 1, but that's neither here nor there.)
But, lets put aside the cell biology as being too gritty and detailed, take the whole thing as one of those fun sci-fi paradigms that create good stories even if they're not good science, and look just at the mechanics. Your arm is generating 1/60th its normal muscle energy: your limbs feel like they're solid lead, and lifting your arm is like lifting a 100-pound weight one-handed. You aren't moving around, regardless of whatever is happening inside your head.
IMTU, "low berth" is how everyone prefers to travel. It's completely safe except under severe conditions (ship damage, etc.) and there are even built-in protocols to auto-wake people in that case.
People prefer cryo travel because they get to VR-dream the entire time. They can choose to pass the time at a faster rate (make six weeks feel like a day), a slower rate (take that six-month training course in a month), at normal rate (and spend the time chatting with other passengers), or even just sleep through it.
Good VR systems offer training courses, adventures, alternate reality games, and probably some ⌧ographic versions of those things, too. All for a fee, though most commercial travel ships include a lot of it in the base package, and charge only for premium content.
Ships prefer it this way, really. Everyone travels in cryo, if they can help it. It's more secure. It reduces life support costs. You don't have to feed them, except through a tube. They take up less space and you don't have to have a passenger exercise room and lounge and crap.
The crew spends a lot of time in VR, too, in a lighter sleep than cryo. It's just more fun to pass the time that way. Space is pretty boring most of the time. Wake me up when it's my maintenance shift, okay?
People prefer cryo travel because they get to VR-dream the entire time. They can choose to pass the time at a faster rate (make six weeks feel like a day), a slower rate (take that six-month training course in a month), at normal rate (and spend the time chatting with other passengers), or even just sleep through it.
Good VR systems offer training courses, adventures, alternate reality games, and probably some ⌧ographic versions of those things, too. All for a fee, though most commercial travel ships include a lot of it in the base package, and charge only for premium content.
Ships prefer it this way, really. Everyone travels in cryo, if they can help it. It's more secure. It reduces life support costs. You don't have to feed them, except through a tube. They take up less space and you don't have to have a passenger exercise room and lounge and crap.
The crew spends a lot of time in VR, too, in a lighter sleep than cryo. It's just more fun to pass the time that way. Space is pretty boring most of the time. Wake me up when it's my maintenance shift, okay?
So what are the main difference in low, mid, & high passage in your setting?
And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?
IMTU, the low berth is full-on frozen sleep, no metabolism going on, no need to deliver O2 or calories or deal with waste, you'll stay that way for as long as power is delivered to the berth. It means a severely injured person isn't slowly dying, though of course reanimation could get complicated. The low berths draw power from emergency power systems - radioisotope generators - so a player could conceivably come across a derelict with low-berth passengers who've been there for decades, or the players could bail themselves out of a nasty fix by going into low berths and then find themselves waking decades in the future. It is not without risks, though those most often consist of you waking to find yourself in a hospital bed with a period of recovery ahead of you.
Well, if you've got the money to spend, why not enjoy the pleasures of a cruise? Good food, good entertainment, someone waiting on you, time to relax and read a novel or hob-nob with your fellow passengers, a week to acclimatize to the new gravity and the new air - it's worth the money if you have it.
Well, if you've got the money to spend, why not enjoy the pleasures of a cruise? Good food, good entertainment, someone waiting on you, time to relax and read a novel or hob-nob with your fellow passengers, a week to acclimatize to the new gravity and the new air - it's worth the money if you have it.
Read all the posts on this thread.
Why use bus/airline type seats ?
Wouldn't a setup like a Japanese capsule hotel work better ? The doors into each one could be vac proof. The air is filtered, there are entertainment facilities built-in. Otherwise the drug sequence remains the same.
So how much cost would that add to a ship ? And how many passengers could be carried that way ? Or this even viable ?
Why use bus/airline type seats ?
Wouldn't a setup like a Japanese capsule hotel work better ? The doors into each one could be vac proof. The air is filtered, there are entertainment facilities built-in. Otherwise the drug sequence remains the same.
So how much cost would that add to a ship ? And how many passengers could be carried that way ? Or this even viable ?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Superficially, the driving forces being cost, space, safety, and boredom.
It's more a question of honouring science fiction tropes, specifically the Dumarest Saga, since I believe in most other iterations, it's a fairly safe and routine operation.
It's more a question of honouring science fiction tropes, specifically the Dumarest Saga, since I believe in most other iterations, it's a fairly safe and routine operation.
My setting has three modes of travel: crew, stateroom, and cryo.
Crew don't go full cryo, but spend downtime in the lounge or in VR.
Staterooms on ships are fairly rare, and are for people terrified of cryo for some reason, because ships really just prefer to ice you when you get on their ship.
Cryo is the default mode of travel. Cheap, safe, fun.
Crew don't go full cryo, but spend downtime in the lounge or in VR.
Staterooms on ships are fairly rare, and are for people terrified of cryo for some reason, because ships really just prefer to ice you when you get on their ship.
Cryo is the default mode of travel. Cheap, safe, fun.
Yes but what is the difference in quality classified as, and how is it shown?
What separates what a noble experiences in cryo or stateroom vs say some down-on-his-luck merchant when experiencing the same?
Is there a difference in accommodations in VR or what?
>>
...And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?
<<
Let's see, let me turn this around in why would I not want to go into a low berth?
I'm just going aboard a ship I may have never seen land on my planet before. I'm literally putting my life in the hands of their captain, the state of their ship, their low berth equipment and their medical staff. IF I have the money, at least I don't have to rely on their cryo equipment and medical staff. Sure, it could be the equipment to resuscitate will normally work fine (and better at higher TLs), except when it doesn't and that's when you want high TL doctors quickly working upon reviving you. The starport you are going to may or may not have the facilities for revival, and in that case you have to rely on a first aider in the crew. I also may be curious to see what hyperspace looks and feels like from the inside of a ship - at least once-, or just take a seven day sabbatical on board a ship to get away from it all.
The ships in space are modeled quite a bit on the ships in sea. The crew are there to ideally have a rotating watch. To perform routine monitoring and maintenance, to take turns on the ship roster of duties. Most vessels don't have crew spare (for cost reasons if nothing else) other than to cover the essentials - allowing for necessary rest and some leisure time. It is much easier and flexible for crew when there aren't passengers getting in their way or able to report on their activities.
...And for what reasons might someone not travel on any ship including one in the Imperium?
It may or may not be safer than travelling in a plane, but there isn't an ironclad guarantee that you will reach your destination.
Happy travels.
...And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?
<<
Let's see, let me turn this around in why would I not want to go into a low berth?
I'm just going aboard a ship I may have never seen land on my planet before. I'm literally putting my life in the hands of their captain, the state of their ship, their low berth equipment and their medical staff. IF I have the money, at least I don't have to rely on their cryo equipment and medical staff. Sure, it could be the equipment to resuscitate will normally work fine (and better at higher TLs), except when it doesn't and that's when you want high TL doctors quickly working upon reviving you. The starport you are going to may or may not have the facilities for revival, and in that case you have to rely on a first aider in the crew. I also may be curious to see what hyperspace looks and feels like from the inside of a ship - at least once-, or just take a seven day sabbatical on board a ship to get away from it all.
The ships in space are modeled quite a bit on the ships in sea. The crew are there to ideally have a rotating watch. To perform routine monitoring and maintenance, to take turns on the ship roster of duties. Most vessels don't have crew spare (for cost reasons if nothing else) other than to cover the essentials - allowing for necessary rest and some leisure time. It is much easier and flexible for crew when there aren't passengers getting in their way or able to report on their activities.
...And for what reasons might someone not travel on any ship including one in the Imperium?
It may or may not be safer than travelling in a plane, but there isn't an ironclad guarantee that you will reach your destination.
Happy travels.
On a small trader I always wondered how one separated the mid passengers from the high ones. I suppose the steward could prepare filet mignon for the highs and toss some kibble in front of the mids, but in a cramped ship, how do you separate out the entertainment factor. I always assumed the small tramps were limited to mid and low.
Then there is the jerk factor to consider. A week in jump, sharing a 400 sq. ft. lounge with a supreme asshole has to be taxing on the psyche. Not exactly a high passage memorable experience. Memorable perhaps...
It seems to me that travel off the mains in a small vessel is best done low, so I've typically thought that most vessels don't carry enough low berths. I also feel that a vessel should have emergency lows for crew. IMTU, I like sizing a power plant to run all systems simultaneously for the month's fuel allotment, but in some situations not all systems are run. In that case the plant can be de-rated for the decreased load. This allows for a glimmer of hope if the ship misjumps into the abyss. Thrust to a relativistic vector, charge up batteries, shut down everything but low berths and transponder SOS ping, say a prayer and take a nap...
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"Hey, these bios are in the green. There goes our salvage guys."
Then there is the jerk factor to consider. A week in jump, sharing a 400 sq. ft. lounge with a supreme asshole has to be taxing on the psyche. Not exactly a high passage memorable experience. Memorable perhaps...
It seems to me that travel off the mains in a small vessel is best done low, so I've typically thought that most vessels don't carry enough low berths. I also feel that a vessel should have emergency lows for crew. IMTU, I like sizing a power plant to run all systems simultaneously for the month's fuel allotment, but in some situations not all systems are run. In that case the plant can be de-rated for the decreased load. This allows for a glimmer of hope if the ship misjumps into the abyss. Thrust to a relativistic vector, charge up batteries, shut down everything but low berths and transponder SOS ping, say a prayer and take a nap...
.
.
.
"Hey, these bios are in the green. There goes our salvage guys."
