Law Level of the Imperium

[far-trader]

Actually that angle might even work for me Hans. Thanks. It's a bit kludgy and doesn't quite feel right though, like getting new shoes no matter what they promise that just don't fit right until you break them in. I'll have to try that on for a while.

 

[mike wightman]

I like the MgT starports definitions for facilities - makes a lot of sense.

I also like Han's interpretation that reconciles it with previous canon - there are lots of B starports on high pop high tech worlds; why are they not A rated? Because they lack the civilian starship construction facilities.

 

[samuelvss]

I like Hans' interpretation, as well. There is no necessary staffing to count for an E starport: it needs to have a beacon and a place to land. If a place has this, has some facilities, but lacks unrefined fuel provided to the satisfaction of the SPA or IISS, then it's an E. Maybe there's an engineer, gone local, who will do drive work; no, he's not licensed. No, he may not be there when you need him, or he may overcharge you if he is.

If you pull in a C classed starport, you KNOW you'll have "reasonable repair facilities," structures of some kind, and unrefined fuel, available in the standard manner; you may have more...

I hear mention of "permits" being required for weapons in the starport; whence these permits, and for what? What are the requirements. One can have a pistol in New York City if one has a permit, but they are, because of the highly restrictive nature of the permitting process, essentially illegal. I can't see it being "legal" if the permit is anything more than a formality. Any thoughts?

 

[DangerousThing]

Class E starports have no personnel.

I think the "no personnel" is a minimum. A Class E *can* have more than the minimum, but the description is that of a minimum Class E.
-
Jay

 

[BytePro]

In the CT LBB3 definition, I 'corrected' the Class C description from 'Only unrefined fuel available.' to 'At least unrefined fuel available.' Otherwise there was a logical gap between B and C that left no option for a starport with only unrefined fuel, but also construction & annual maintenance yards.

CT LBB3 also states 'In nearly all cases, a planet will consider that a starport is extraterritorial.' (Italics mine). Son sometimes my player's weren't so lucky :devil:

 

[rancke]

In the CT LBB3 definition, I 'corrected' the Class C description from 'Only unrefined fuel available.' to 'At least unrefined fuel available.' Otherwise there was a logical gap between B and C that left no option for a starport with only unrefined fuel, but also construction & annual maintenance yards.

IMO there's a logical gap between C a B anyway, namely the starport with refined fuel, repairs, and annual maintenance, but no construction.

IMTU that starport is Type B and only type A starports have construction. Whether the yard can build both boats and ships or only boats is determined by the tech level of the world.

As it is, the only difference between a Class A and a Class B starport is whether the yard they both possess is capable of building ships or only boats. A difference that may be of interest to wargamers, but of very little interest to most everybody else.


Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

In the CT LBB3 definition, I 'corrected' the Class C description from 'Only unrefined fuel available.' to 'At least unrefined fuel available.' Otherwise there was a logical gap between B and C that left no option for a starport with only unrefined fuel, but also construction & annual maintenance yards.

That's because having construction yards would make no sense with only unrefined fuel available. If you're building ships, you can't be bothered to run a refinery? So, you take your brand new shiny ship out of the yards, and the first thing you do is misjump because of unrefined fuel? There goes your repeat business........

As it is, the only difference between a Class A and a Class B starport is whether the yard they both possess is capable of building ships or only boats. A difference that may be of interest to wargamers, but of very little interest to most everybody else.

Why wouldn't it be of interest to non-wargamers? If I need a new j-drive (because mine slagged on the way in) I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I'm coasting in to a B starport. If I want to retrofit my clunker with a J2 so I can be an even less efficient smuggler, I can't do it at a B starport. At least not without what is probably a major cash outlay, and some possible... issues.

"Well, yeah, I can get you a J2. It's gonna take about 6 weeks, though. And, it's gonna cost ya. You don't have that much? Well, dang, guess you're out of luck, then, aren't ya. Hmmmm. Unless....... See, I have this friend who needs a bit of help..........."

 

[77topaz]

In the CT LBB3 definition, I 'corrected' the Class C description from 'Only unrefined fuel available.' to 'At least unrefined fuel available.' Otherwise there was a logical gap between B and C that left no option for a starport with only unrefined fuel, but also construction & annual maintenance yards.

You seem to be contradicting yourself - do you mean you wanted to leave an option for a starport with refined fuel but without any construction facilities?

 

[rancke]

Why wouldn't it be of interest to non-wargamers? If I need a new j-drive (because mine slagged on the way in) I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I'm coasting in to a B starport. If I want to retrofit my clunker with a J2 so I can be an even less efficient smuggler, I can't do it at a B starport. At least not without what is probably a major cash outlay, and some possible... issues.

I said 'most everybody else'. The exceptions would have to check that the starport had a yard (That would be the starport class) and that it had the technology to build jump drives (that would the tech level). That can be done without even going below the detail of the UWPs. There's really no reason to spend a whole classification on that one distinction. Meanwhile, a lot more people would like to know if they can get an annual overhaul or refined fuel or repairs or visit a TAS.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

The difference between Class A & B informs the game mechanics. Generally it indicates more wealth is likely near Class A, starships typically being more expensive, and usually having physically larger shipyards. This is reflected in the Spaceship Encounters table - where yachts, subsidized liners and merchants are more likely to appear. It also contributes to the rationale for higher DM for military bases to be present.

In game it also can have an impact on PC locations:

• All new starship's first deploy from Class A
• Replacement or upgraded jump drives can only be fitted at Class A

IMTU (CT version), I considered house ruling Class B to support Annual Maintenance for everything but the Jump drive part of any spaceship, but still allowing repairs. This would mean that Drive Failure penalty for M/PP is avoided, but J-Drive remains (+1 weekly). However, Annual Maintenance rarely ever figured in my games.

More abstractly, if only Class A could construct spaceships, then all in-system non-starships would have to be jumped from other systems.

P.S.
Fritz_Brown, 77topaz - oops, I should have written 'Also' instead of 'Otherwise' - the missing option for refined fuel with no shipyard is obvious, so I wasn't trying to rationalize that. The missing shipyard with no refined fuel isn't as 'logically' obvious.

CT described certain ships with drives built for unrefined fuel - so a Class B whose yard customers were Scouts, military and quasi-military (and cheap commercial ships) would have no need to provide refined fuel - hence a logically missing class between B & C.

I didn't address this IMTU, only the Class C with no refined fuel, which I handled on a case by case basis. No 'rule' - just an option. This way I either informed the players that a Class C did have (normally) refined fuel or didn't or that they would have no way of knowing...

 

[rancke]

The difference between Class A & B informs the game mechanics. Generally it indicates more wealth is likely near Class A, starships typically being more expensive, and usually having physically larger shipyards. This is reflected in the Spaceship Encounters table - where yachts, subsidized liners and merchants are more likely to appear. It also contributes to the rationale for higher DM for military bases to be present.

But the Scouts don't know anything about game mechanics. All they know is what they can see in setting terms. And there the only difference is whether or not the yard can build ships or only boats.

More abstractly, if only Class A could construct spaceships, then all in-system non-starships would have to be jumped from other systems.

So they would, but where's the problem with that? A launch costs several million credits; transporting it one parsec costs less than one percent of that. Meanwhile, the exact same argument applies in reverse, except with twice the force, with a number of Class B starports, namely the ones located on worlds with populations and/or technology too low to support a boatyard. For them components will have to be jumped in, assembled, and the finished product jumped out again to some place with customers for the boats.

CT described certain ships with drives built for unrefined fuel - so a Class B whose yard customers were Scouts, military and quasi-military (and cheap commercial ships) would have no need to provide refined fuel - hence a logically missing class between B & C.

There is no mention of civilian ships that can use unrefined fuel without penalty. None of the ship construction rules sets to date has actually addressed hardened jump drives with as much as one word, so we don't know how much they cost, but since being able to use unrefined fuel is the more versatile option, the existence of drives that can't use unrefined fuel implies some good reason why hardened drives are not standard. Either it's a secret known only to the Scouts (and the Navy?) or they are more expensive even though the rules don't reflect that or there are significant operational drawbacks of some kind or another even thuogh the rules don't mention any.

In any case, any starport that is regularily visited by a given number of ships per year will have the incentive to invest in a fuel refinery. And fuel refineries are so cheap that the threshold number of visitors would be fairly low.

Indeed, IMO no starport worthy of the appellation 'routine starport' should be without a fuel refinery. That should be reserved for poor starports.

I didn't address this IMTU, only the Class C with no refined fuel, which I handled on a case by case basis. No 'rule' - just an option. This way I either informed the players that a Class C did have (normally) refined fuel or didn't or that they would have no way of knowing...

Unless they checked out the library data entry for said starport.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Scouts don't need to know game mechanics when inability to make starships determines Class A vs. Class B status...

Sure, any spaceship could be shipped. But, starships can be jumped themselves, so they are not cargo that needs to be jumped in after construction. Systems that don't cater extensively to interstellar trade would, by definition, be more likely to build insystem spaceships than have them shipped in - regardless of economics.

Fuel purification plants are an inexpensive option with HG - and my LBB2 explicitly states 'Commercial ships sometimes use unrefined fuel because it is cheaper'. In fact, this is one of the main rationales for any starport worth a salt providing refined fuel. Hence, IMTU, Class C can provide refined fuel - on a case by case basis. Just like your 'minimal requirements' approach (except I only apply it to Class C - changing 'Only' to 'At least').

Of course, unrefined fuel is cheaper, so a fancier starport is likely to make more money selling refined fuel - and outlawing of skimming on the primary world (and perhaps others insystem) is likely occur. In some cases, I can see Class B and even A, also offering unrefined fuel (in addition to refined) - especially on water worlds; on worlds that depend on trade for essentials; and, when such starports also service military craft.

Re: library data - I am the Library IMTU

 

[rancke]

Scouts don't need to know game mechanics when inability to make starships determines Class A vs. Class B status...

What's your point?

Sure, any spaceship could be shipped. But, starships can be jumped themselves, so they are not cargo that needs to be jumped in after construction.

Thank you very much indeed for explaining that to me.

Systems that don't cater extensively to interstellar trade would, by definition, be more likely to build insystem spaceships than have them shipped in - regardless of economics.

What definition are you talking about? Systems that can built spaceboats themselves are less likely to import them, although if they only need a few, they are less likely to invest in a boatyard. Systems that are not able to build spaceboats themselves are more likely to import them, provided they need them at all. Nothing to do with the amount of interstellar trade.

Fuel purification plants are an inexpensive option with HG - and my LBB2 explicitly states 'Commercial ships sometimes use unrefined fuel because it is cheaper'.

Maybe they do, but if doing so means risking a misjump that is a false economy.

Of course, unrefined fuel is cheaper, so a fancier starport is likely to make more money selling refined fuel - and outlawing of skimming on the primary world (and perhaps others insystem) is likely occur. In some cases, I can see Class B and even A, also offering unrefined fuel (in addition to refined) - especially on water worlds; on worlds that depend on trade for essentials; and, when such starports also service military craft.

I once calculated that if unrefined fuel cost Cr100 per ton and refined fuel cost more than Cr300 per ton, then a regular merchant would save more in fuel bill than it lost in revenue by installing a fuel purifier (I won't guarantee that my calculations were sound).

Re: library data - I am the Library IMTU

Well, if it works for your players then that's all that matters. I can tell you that if you refused a character that I was playing the ability to get bog-common basic information out of an ordinary library data system then I'd quit your campaign. Life's too short to put up with that sort of nonsens.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

You are welcome.

 

[warwizard]

There is no mention of civilian ships that can use unrefined fuel without penalty. None of the ship construction rules sets to date has actually addressed hardened jump drives with as much as one word, so we don't know how much they cost, but since being able to use unrefined fuel is the more versatile option, the existence of drives that can't use unrefined fuel implies some good reason why hardened drives are not standard. Either it's a secret known only to the Scouts (and the Navy?) or they are more expensive even though the rules don't reflect that or there are significant operational drawbacks of some kind or another even thuogh the rules don't mention any.

Hans

Fuel purifiers do have a penalty in mass, cost, power usage, and volume and convert unrefined fuel into refined fuel for use by the persnickety civilian drives that need refined fuel. Minimum volumes that are not exactly prohibitive but range from 3 to 10 displacement tons with tech levels >15 getting down to less than a ton

 

[far-trader]

Fuel purifiers do have a penalty in mass, cost, power usage, and volume and convert unrefined fuel into refined fuel for use by the persnickety civilian drives that need refined fuel. Minimum volumes that are not exactly prohibitive but range from 3 to 10 displacement tons with tech levels >15 getting down to less than a ton

Far from prohibitive enough to not wreck the setting elements of unrefined fuel.

My method and attack of the issue was different from Hans' but comes to much the same conclusion. I worked out that any ship of greater than 200tons and jump 1, or higher than TL11, makes money by sacrificing the pitifully little cargo volume and paying the pittance of credits to be able to run unrefined fuel IF refined fuel costs Cr500 per ton. Hans' numbers look like they fit that as well.

My solution was to soft retcon the fuel types and effectively nerf the purifiers. Returning the system to pre HG.

Basically (in MTU) Fuel Purifiers ARE NOT Fuel Refiners.

Unrefined Fuel is what you get WITH Fuel Purifiers.

Refined Fuel requires much larger, much pricier, installations. Something rarely found on ships, and then only on large ships, and usually only on Fuel Tenders. All military ships have Fuel Purifiers as standard. Few civilian ships have Fuel Purifiers for various reasons and must buy Unrefined Fuel if they can't get Refined Fuel and run the risk of fouling their drives.

HG Fuel Purifiers as described basically killed the whole operating with unrefined fuel meme. A meme I liked from the setting right from day one.

 

[warwizard]

far trader, I'd wager that there is one more element in YTU... If unrefined fuel is ever put into a fuel tank, it contaminates any refined fuel put into it until you have the tanks cleaned at a shipyard.

 

[DangerousThing]

Well, if it works for your players then that's all that matters. I can tell you that if you refused a character that I was playing the ability to get bog-common basic information out of an ordinary library data system then I'd quit your campaign. Life's too short to put up with that sort of nonsens.

Hans

Hans,

How many information systems do you know that are perfectly up to date and absolutely correct?

Some places would just have the starport letter showing and some would have an advertisement for "Bert's Fuel Shoppe: We Sell Refined Fuel!" Of course they might be out of business by the time you jumped to that system.

Classic Traveller was written pre-internet, and was designed to update a computer system with tapes or disks (a later addition).

 

[far-trader]

far trader, I'd wager that there is one more element in YTU... If unrefined fuel is ever put into a fuel tank, it contaminates any refined fuel put into it until you have the tanks cleaned at a shipyard.

Actually, a bit of a side discussion, but I've never quite figured which way to go on that

The rules seem... unclear.

I generally favour allowing a fill of refined to flush any unrefined issues away because if not then once you contaminate your tanks you're really risking that breakdown and misjump. While the occassional risky or needful unrefined trip is ok, to have to be stuck with it once you can buy refined seemed a bit over doing it.

On the other hand... :devil:

 

[Omnivore]

I generally favour allowing a fill of refined to flush any unrefined issues away because if not then once you contaminate your tanks you're really risking that breakdown and misjump. While the occassional risky or needful unrefined trip is ok, to have to be stuck with it once you can buy refined seemed a bit over doing it.

Adding in your unprocessed -> unrefined -> refined fuel chain, switching from unrefined to refined might require a purge cycle. I'm reminded of my coffee maker's self-cleaning cycle requiring vinegar water. One interesting and simple approach might be as follows:

Given a fuel purification plant capable of processing x amount of fuel in h hours:
1) Unprocessed fuel -> unrefined fuel = h hours and produces x fuel.
2) Unrefined -> refined fuel = h hours and produces x fuel.
3) refined fuel -> purge = h hours for x fuel (fuel is recycled).

Your engineering crew would reconfigure the fuel purification plant for each process type.

The economic aspects could be addressed by not only considering the value of the time and the maintenance of the purification plant, but with the possible addition of requiring filtration materials to be purchased every so often.