Law and Communication

[Enoki]

First, I don't see the Imperium enforcing local laws. I do see the Imperium "greasing the wheels" for the various systems to cooperate with each other. Thus, Planet-A putting out a "wanted" alert has an expectation that Planet-B, a fellow member of the Imperium, will give the alert "due diligence". Now, what "due diligence" means depends on their law level and government type - a low-law world might file it away and only take action of the suspect gets jailed for some other reason, while a high-law world might be very, very diligent indeed. Politics might also take a hand - perhaps the local Democratic government suspects the neighboring Dictatorship is filing false charges to get their hands on critics or political foes: the Dems file that one in the "when-pigs-fly" file. Thus, you might escape entirely while "next door" on a law level 0 world, or you could be apprehended and shipped back across 20 parsecs from a law level 9 world.

I see them doing it when the problem or person is big enough to get their attention. Some major crime syndicate or boss that is doing say hundred of millions or billions in a criminal enterprise gets their attention. Some smuck robbing the occasional bank on some backwater is ignored.

Second, I don't see too many fugitives hopping a star-freighter across 20 parsecs when the base cost is Cr10,000 per 1-3 light years, or Cr1000 and a possible death sentence if you're unlucky. A few perhaps, but unless your population is rather low, your planet's environment is such that there's just no way to hide, or your local tech and law level are high enough that you're struggling to evade gene-sniffers, hiding on your own world is often the better bet - worlds are rather big places, and not too many murderers just happen to have Cr10,000 or even Cr1,000 where they can grab it quick while dashing for the starport. There were 14,748 murders in the U.S. in 2010 - only a small fraction of those fled the country. Crossing 20 parsecs to evade justice is a rich man's game, the kind of thing you'd expect from a nobleman's son in trouble or a mob boss who found himself in a hard way.

Never underestimate the possible ways someone might avoid this. Shipping themselves as cargo in a container, low passage, working as crew, who knows. They just caught up with a serial killer who was a truck driver. He tortured and murdered a number of people he randomly picked up. He got around quite a bit as a result.
You could have the deck hand on some marginal freighter doing in in Traveller too.....

I also don't think you're giving full credit to technology. If all Planet-A can give Planet-B is a wanted poster, then yes you stand a good chance of evading arrest. If on the other hand, Planet-B has effective facial-recognition software and an integrated public camera network, or Planet-A offers a genetic profile and Planet-B can use that, then you're likely to find yourself busted in short order. A lot depends on where the murder occurred and where you flee.

This depends on the planets. If A dispises B or whatever, this might not happen. Backwaters, huge populations, all sorts of things can transpire to allow some one to slip through the cracks.





Wha...? "FTL" E-mail is just e-mail transmitted to the computer of a ship that's jumping somewhere - or else stored on some sort of data storage device for transport. There's nothing to it that posits "a small group of companies with an Imperial charter," unless you've decided that all computers in the Imperium are manufactured by this small group.[/QUOTE]

 

[DangerousThing]

Wha...? "FTL" E-mail is just e-mail transmitted to the computer of a ship that's jumping somewhere - or else stored on some sort of data storage device for transport. There's nothing to it that posits "a small group of companies with an Imperial charter," unless you've decided that all computers in the Imperium are manufactured by this small group.

Sort of. I figure that the email (fmail?) is sent to a local Scout (IMTU, Survey) drop box. This encrypts the messages it gets and sends them via tight-beam message laser to the X-Boat station. This drop-box also gets the messages from the X-Boat station in the same way, decrypts them and sends them out to the various addressees.

There is also physical mail that is sent for a *much* higher fee (thin Elvis stamp for the email, fat Elvis stamp for physical mail), but that takes longer because it has to physically get into the system and then physically get out of the system.

Hmmm. Not in MTU, but if you had a homogenous Imperium, then perhaps all the evidence could be transmitted with the warrant, and the trial could take place wherever they caught the criminal. Otherwise the "criminal" could spend years in travel both ways; and if the originating system had to send people after him first, this poor guy could spend years in prison before being found not guilty (assuming he wasn't guilty and the trial was fair).

I do see it possible that police departments might import higher tech gear *if* they had the budget to do so.

 

[Whipsnade]

When I talked of warrants travelling across the 3I I was referring to "Imperial warrants" (issued directly by the 3I) and "Imperial-sanctioned warrants" (issued by a member world and vetted/approved by the MOJ).

I figured as much. In my post I emphasized the difference between Imperial/Imperial-sanctioned warrants and local warrants for the benefit of the others reading "our" conversation.

IMTU this vetting is a major function of the MOJ (following standardised criteria) rather than nobles ... of course there can be noble interference in the process.

IMTU, the MOJ basically is the nobility. Well before GT:Nobles put it in print, most of the nobles IMTU worked. They all can't be naval officers, they all can't remittance men, they all can't be judging flower shows, and there seems to be a sh*t ton of them so they must be doing something. The little old lady pushing the tea cart in the MOJ office on Arglebargle-IX won't be Dame Something Or Other, but the people making decisions or signing off on the decisions of others are nobles.

But once in the system, those warrants travel everywhere eventually.

Very, very, very much so. The Imperium is huge and has an equally huge memory.

The MOJ does not enforce Imperial-sanctioned warrants but does 'expect' member worlds to generally enforce them (subject to local conditions) ... wide-spread non-enforcement is a breach of membership.

Agreed, but there will be exceptions; i.e. We most certainly passed along your warrant and have no idea why it hasn't been enforced. Honestly, we've no idea..."

 

[rancke]

Agreed, but there will be exceptions; i.e. We most certainly passed along your warrant and have no idea why it hasn't been enforced. Honestly, we've no idea..."

Imperial warrants for the arrest of criminals has to be given at least lip service by member worlds (although I wouldn't rule out the existence of member worlds with atypical membership treaties that might present legal loopholes. Such worlds would be rare, though), but warrants from other member worlds could be disregarded for various reasons. E.g. "That's not a crime here", "We really don't like what we've heard about the way you run things", "Next time try presenting some evidence of probable cause".

And, of course, the ever-popular "You want him, you come get him. And you're paying for the transportation."


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

I think the key thing here isn't necessarily the communications problems or the travel problems but the nature and definition of crime.

Are there 'universal' crimes that the Imperium will always act upon, or is crime a relative term - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

I would imagine that crimes against the Imperium will be pursued everywhere under 'Imperial Law'.
Robbing a branch of an Imperial Bank, assassinating an Imperial Ambassador, etc.

Possibly crimes against humanity - certain sexual crimes, war crimes, serial killing, or torture and slavery, perhaps, but already things are getting a bit grey.

But local crimes may be completely ignored. How much time and money will the Imperium devote to arbitration of a case involving a purse snatcher? Or even assassination of petty politicians by employees of other petty politicians. Who's to say who will be in power next year?

But yes, what is the cost of extradition (or interstellar bounty hunter expenses)? Who pays? Will they bother?

 

[DangerousThing]

One of the ways that I handle my law enforcement is that lots of information get transferred, but it isn't all pertinent. It is, however, in a standard format for easy inclusion into databases.

For instance, Jakii Sparkles buys and sells gems and jewelry and doesn't really ask where they came from. She's been arrested a few times, but never served time for this. Most of the time she buys gems she's just outside the Empire.

And most of the time other people are totally oblivious to this record.

However, *if* she does come to the attention of the local law or security, then they can check her docket and see what she's been accused of and what the evidence against her is.

That is, if the local police actually store all the information.

In one adventure soon to come, Jakii will be looking for a final crew member. This person is on a luxury line which is soon to leave so Jakii docks her ship and pays for their tickets. Less than one day later a woman is found dead in her stateroom with an extremely valuable necklace missing. So the head of security looks at the dockets of suspicious passengers and finds Jakii.

She suspicious for several reasons:

1. She arrived late and paid premium prices for the stateroom for her and her entourage.

2. She has been asking odd questions about the crew and looking for a crew member that she isn't supposed to know (he's an undercover gambler looking for cheaters).

3. She's a non-noble.

4. She arrived in a highly expensive 600t ship with a 40t cargo area. Trading? I don't think so. (She claims it's for "trade pioneering", they say it's for smuggling.)

So they look at her docket and of those who were with her (some don't have any). They go to look in on her, and find her in a locked meeting room with all the A/V (bugging gear) shut down. They open the door with an override, and find she has a black-box shutting things down (not illegal everywhere, but cops are going to think that if she didn't have anything to hide...) and she was talking with the gambler. The last thing she she said to the gambler as she was being dragged away was "Don't say anything to security!"

If I were security, I'd be looking at her real carefully.

And most of this is because of the docket that tells of accusations.

Of course, the docket is misleading because she was an undercover agent for the Imperial Department of Justice and she's using this identity again. She can't use her Imperial Warrant at this point because it would probably blow her investigation before it starts.

And now the characters have to prove they are not guilty by finding the real guilty party.

 

[Carlobrand]

...For instance, Jakii Sparkles buys and sells gems and jewelry and doesn't really ask where they came from. She's been arrested a few times, but never served time for this. Most of the time she buys gems she's just outside the Empire.

And most of the time other people are totally oblivious to this record.

However, *if* she does come to the attention of the local law or security, then they can check her docket and see what she's been accused of and what the evidence against her is.

That is, if the local police actually store all the information.

In one adventure soon to come, Jakii will be looking for a final crew member. This person is on a luxury line which is soon to leave so Jakii docks her ship and pays for their tickets. Less than one day later a woman is found dead in her stateroom with an extremely valuable necklace missing. So the head of security looks at the dockets of suspicious passengers and finds Jakii.

She suspicious for several reasons:

1. She arrived late and paid premium prices for the stateroom for her and her entourage.

2. She has been asking odd questions about the crew and looking for a crew member that she isn't supposed to know (he's an undercover gambler looking for cheaters).

3. She's a non-noble.

4. She arrived in a highly expensive 600t ship with a 40t cargo area. Trading? I don't think so. (She claims it's for "trade pioneering", they say it's for smuggling.)

So they look at her docket and of those who were with her (some don't have any). They go to look in on her, and find her in a locked meeting room with all the A/V (bugging gear) shut down. They open the door with an override, and find she has a black-box shutting things down (not illegal everywhere, but cops are going to think that if she didn't have anything to hide...) and she was talking with the gambler. The last thing she she said to the gambler as she was being dragged away was "Don't say anything to security!"

If I were security, I'd be looking at her real carefully.

And most of this is because of the docket that tells of accusations.

Of course, the docket is misleading because she was an undercover agent for the Imperial Department of Justice and she's using this identity again. She can't use her Imperial Warrant at this point because it would probably blow her investigation before it starts.

And now the characters have to prove they are not guilty by finding the real guilty party.

Not guilty of what? Being in the vicinity of a "suspicious" person following a crime that was not directly linked to that person? You have a dead woman missing jewelry, a "suspicious" woman with no actual criminal record and no stated link to the deceased other than an unrevealed acquaintance with a crewman - who likewise has no stated link to the deceased other than his position as crew, which makes ALL the crew suspect - a group of players whose only apparent link to the crime is to have been in the company of the "suspicious" woman ... and the players have to prove THEY are not guilty?

Is this happening on the ship? Ship security bursts in on a locked room and hauls her off because she was defeating their effort to spy on her in a private meeting? Their strongest evidence is that she told someone not to talk to the people who had burst into her private meeting and hauled her off without provocation? Man, if I were your adventurers' attorney, I'd say, "Sit tight, we're going to end up owning this luxury liner," then I'd file whatever equivalent to a Habeus Corpus petition the Imperium has and politely point out to the owner's representatives the potential damaging consequences to their business if word got out among their clientele that his security forces had been bugging private business meetings aboard ship - after which I'd have a pointed conversation with him about the quality of his ship security unit, the potential for slander claims arising out of their bungling of the investigation, and the potential backlash associated with having an incompetently investigated death aboard a luxury liner.

 

[Whipsnade]

One of the ways that I handle my law enforcement is that lots of information get transferred, but it isn't all pertinent. It is, however, in a standard format for easy inclusion into databases.

I don't think you quite understand what "One Week Per Jump" actually means for communications or data sharing and the scenario you posted is rather flawed because of that.

The idea that the law enforcement agency working working the case would have "dockets" on even a tiny fraction of the tens of billions of sophonts who might interact with the liner along its route is ludicrous. The idea that a law enforcement agency would place any trust in "dockets" whose source, method of composition, and provenance is completely unknown to them is equally ludicrous, as the "Really an MoJ agent" twist in the scenario you posted neatly illustrates.

The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is not one of information or information sharing. The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is in knowing what information to trust. Because anyone can report anything to anyone and because information can be easily stored, just like Western intelligence agencies of today the Imperium finds itself drowning in data. "Garbage In, Garbage Out" is a daily reality. The real job isn't one of simply combing through a database, the real job is one of determining what data is pertinent and what data can be trusted.

The Third Imperium is not the US or EU and the MoJ isn't Interpol. Once you shed those misconceptions, you're scenarios won't resemble "Jersey City with jump drives" and they'll be all the better for it.

 

[DangerousThing]

I'm answering this one first because I view it as an attack on MTU.

I don't think you quite understand what "One Week Per Jump" actually means for communications or data sharing and the scenario you posted is rather flawed because of that.

The idea that the law enforcement agency working working the case would have "dockets" on even a tiny fraction of the tens of billions of sophonts who might interact with the liner along its route is ludicrous. The idea that a law enforcement agency would place any trust in "dockets" whose source, method of composition, and provenance is completely unknown to them is equally ludicrous, as the "Really an MoJ agent" twist in the scenario you posted neatly illustrates.

Were I running in the 3I, perhaps you'd have a point. I'm running in a rather different universe. The Phoenix Empire has only 200 real systems (it has over 400 resource systems but they are mostly uninhabited at the moment). The flow of information is high, but it is small enough to be manageable by a good computer expert system.

In addition, her docket was inserted into the system by the Empire to make her cover better. There are lots of dockets on "criminals" who only have suspicion on them.

As a criminal (her faked docket) she buys and sells gems and jewelry without going through all the paperwork required. She associates with known criminals. She's just come into enough money to buy a new 600t-800t ship with the equivalent of J4/M6, armed to the teeth, with enough stealth technology to sneak through a war zone. One might wonder what she's doing with this. Her explanation, "trade pioneering", is just good enough to be possible.

As a former IDOJ (Imperial Dept. of Justice, or in slang an "Imp"), and now a special troubleshooter, her cover is extremely valuable. On the rim of the Empire is where most of the piracy goes on, and there are a lot of crimes against trade. (In short words, people steal things.) One of the most identifiable items from a rich person is their jewelry. By tracking stolen jewelry down, she can narrow down the search areas.

Also, her cover allows her and those she vouches for into places they might not otherwise be able to get into.

The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is not one of information or information sharing. The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is in knowing what information to trust. Because anyone can report anything to anyone and because information can be easily stored, just like Western intelligence agencies of today the Imperium finds itself drowning in data. "Garbage In, Garbage Out" is a daily reality. The real job isn't one of simply combing through a database, the real job is one of determining what data is pertinent and what data can be trusted.

I actually made this point above in this thread if you were reading.

By using encryption officially sanctioned by the Imperium, official mail is fairly well trusted because it is digitally signed by the department of origin. My Empire is more technologically monolithic than the 3I. Basically the max tech is 15 and most worlds have TL 14, whereas the rim worlds will have a lower tech for many things.

However, the Imperium delivers encryption devices to official offices. These devices are black boxes that use something like public key encryption to encrypt not only the information, but also the ID card from the originator. And in the Phoenix Empire the Imperial ID cards that everybody is supposed to carry (usually ignored or a small crime) is almost impossible to forge. So the police and the various security companies can usually trust the information they get.[/quote]

The Third Imperium is not the US or EU and the MoJ isn't Interpol. Once you shed those misconceptions, you're scenarios won't resemble "Jersey City with jump drives" and they'll be all the better for it.

I know this. Frankly this scenario is mainly to get the players all on the same page. I have a mystery which is not impossible to solve, but looks it. If the characters can't solve the mystery, Jakii can, in her real identity, explain things to the police. Right now, however, they are one a luxury liner and only have less than a week to solve this before they get turned over to the Imperial security at the next starport.

 

[DangerousThing]

Not guilty of what? Being in the vicinity of a "suspicious" person following a crime that was not directly linked to that person? You have a dead woman missing jewelry, a "suspicious" woman with no actual criminal record and no stated link to the deceased other than an unrevealed acquaintance with a crewman - who likewise has no stated link to the deceased other than his position as crew, which makes ALL the crew suspect - a group of players whose only apparent link to the crime is to have been in the company of the "suspicious" woman ... and the players have to prove THEY are not guilty?

One thing to remember is that Security on the liner have a lot more latitude than the police. And the Phoenix Empire, while not being a police state, doesn't have the same rights as we used to enjoy in the US.

The security forces want a viable suspect they can hand over to the Imperial security at the end of this trip. There aren't a lot of these security people available and they're working their best leads. When a known jewel fence (even if not convicted, she is *known* as a buyer of stolen jewelry) docks in the liner at the last minute, pays cash for her and her entourage, and skulks about looking at the gamblers playing at the tables, I think they have a valid reason for suspicion.

Again, the ship's security wants a scapegoat. They don't want to find out that her noble lover is guilty of this, though they would look into him if there were some reasonable suspicion.

Is this happening on the ship? Ship security bursts in on a locked room and hauls her off because she was defeating their effort to spy on her in a private meeting? Their strongest evidence is that she told someone not to talk to the people who had burst into her private meeting and hauled her off without provocation? Man, if I were your adventurers' attorney, I'd say, "Sit tight, we're going to end up owning this luxury liner," then I'd file whatever equivalent to a Habeus Corpus petition the Imperium has and politely point out to the owner's representatives the potential damaging consequences to their business if word got out among their clientele that his security forces had been bugging private business meetings aboard ship - after which I'd have a pointed conversation with him about the quality of his ship security unit, the potential for slander claims arising out of their bungling of the investigation, and the potential backlash associated with having an incompetently investigated death aboard a luxury liner.

Yes. And if this were the the US before 2011, I'd agree with you.

However, you're making a few mistakes here.

1. This is the Phoenix Empire. While there are strong human rights laws, the Empire doesn't have the strong laws supporting personal privacy.

2. The ship's security had reasonable reasons to suspect her. Note, they don't have enough to arrest her, but they have enough to consider her a "person of interest".

3. The meeting was in an employee's break room. Normally this isn't monitored, but it can be. In US terms, she had no actual expectation of privacy there, which is why she used her black box. Actually every room and corridor can be monitored. (Isn't this one of the ways the "anti-hijack" program is supposed to work?) Of course, this liner doesn't do this because they respect the privacy of its patrons.

4. Jakii hasn't been arrested. She's only going to be questioned and let go after a few hours. Unless she threatens them like you would.

5. Also, they did not "break" into the room they were meeting in. They used a security override key, pretty much like opened the stateroom of the dead woman.

6. You're assuming that security isn't looking into other possibilities as well. However, the fact that Jakii will probably refuse to cooperate with them won't make them any happier at her.

Again, this is an Empire, with a feudal system and a parliament. It isn't a democracy at all. Everything the ship's security has done is legal, and Jakii is the best suspect at this time.

This is a murder mystery. I have a group of players that have not played together before. I needed something they can't walk away from. Access to her ship is sealed. Now these characters have a real reason to find the real murderer. Jakii can't blow her cover while *on* the ship, but she *can* try to find the real murderer and lead security to him somehow. I'm just hoping that I planted enough clues (the clues are all such that when they find one, the rest of the clues leading that way were never there in the first place).

If anybody has any *positive* suggestions on how to run a murder mystery like this, I'd be glad to listen.
-
Jay

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Objections Sustained!

Not guilty of what? Being in the vicinity of a "suspicious" person following a crime that was not directly linked to that person? You have a dead woman missing jewelry, a "suspicious" woman with no actual criminal record and no stated link to the deceased other than an unrevealed acquaintance with a crewman - who likewise has no stated link to the deceased other than his position as crew, which makes ALL the crew suspect - a group of players whose only apparent link to the crime is to have been in the company of the "suspicious" woman ... and the players have to prove THEY are not guilty?

Is this happening on the ship? Ship security bursts in on a locked room and hauls her off because she was defeating their effort to spy on her in a private meeting? Their strongest evidence is that she told someone not to talk to the people who had burst into her private meeting and hauled her off without provocation? Man, if I were your adventurers' attorney, I'd say, "Sit tight, we're going to end up owning this luxury liner," then I'd file whatever equivalent to a Habeus Corpus petition the Imperium has and politely point out to the owner's representatives the potential damaging consequences to their business if word got out among their clientele that his security forces had been bugging private business meetings aboard ship - after which I'd have a pointed conversation with him about the quality of his ship security unit, the potential for slander claims arising out of their bungling of the investigation, and the potential backlash associated with having an incompetently investigated death aboard a luxury liner.

Carlo, you can play my defense attorney any time! Primo stuff there.

 

[CosmicGamer]

(1) What prevents someone from committing murder, hopping a ship to the next system and then disappearing into the masses?

I'm grappling with a couple things

1)Why are murders committed?

While there are a lot of reasons, I'm thinking it's mostly because someone is unhappy with their current life. If this is the case, why commit murder to change your life then hop a ship to evade the law. Why not just hop a ship thereby changing your life. Would this make people with the means of fleeing/changing their life less likely to commit premeditated murder? Obviously there would still be "crimes of passion".

What else am I missing with just a simple surface analysis?

2) Why do governments try to catch murderers?

If a murderer of a local person has left the system why would they be sought? In some systems exile could be preferable to expensive incarceration and attempt to rehabilitate. Just make sure the person never comes back.

Depending on the situation, I could see a non government effort to exact justice (get revenge).

3) Person non gratis. Even if it's too expensive or not politically practical to return a suspected murderer to the originating local, that doesn't mean you are welcoming them with open arms. "Sorry, there is an outstanding warrant for you in system xyz." You can't pass customs, your work visa (obtained prior to becoming aware of warrant) is revoked, and so on...

 

[rancke]

The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is not one of information or information sharing. The problem with interstellar justice in the Third Imperium is in knowing what information to trust. Because anyone can report anything to anyone and because information can be easily stored, just like Western intelligence agencies of today the Imperium finds itself drowning in data. "Garbage In, Garbage Out" is a daily reality. The real job isn't one of simply combing through a database, the real job is one of determining what data is pertinent and what data can be trusted.

I don't see the problem here. The information arrives by a trusted carrier, first by a Navy courier; later a duplicate arrives by X-boat. It carries an authentication code from an accredited law enforcement agency. It informs the local agency that John Smith is wanted for blasphemy on Deneb and includes a set of biometrics. The information is added to the agency's database and forgotten. When John Smith is arrested for exposing his navel on a public beach, his biometrics are run through the database and the warrant pops up. What happens next depends on the local legal system. Perhaps they wouldn't hang a dog on evidence supplied by a Denebian and lets Smith go (after his local transgression has been dealt with). Maybe they don't think that blasphemy is a crime. Maybe they don't think the biometrics supplied in the warrant are complete enough to identify their culprit as John Smith. Or maybe they send word to Deneb to come and get their futigive.

The Third Imperium is not the US or EU and the MoJ isn't Interpol.

No, indeed. The MoJ is the FBI. :devil:

Inspired by Jack Vance's IPCC I do have an Interpol analog IMTU, the ULCC (Uniform Legal Codes Commitee). Originally a creation of a bunch of ivory tower do-gooders for the purpose of imposing a uniform legal code on all Imperial (an impossible goal), it has evolved into a highly pragmatic organization similar to Interpol and the IPCC.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... you're making a few mistakes here.

1. This is the Phoenix Empire. While there are strong human rights laws, the Empire doesn't have the strong laws supporting personal privacy.

2. The ship's security had reasonable reasons to suspect her. Note, they don't have enough to arrest her, but they have enough to consider her a "person of interest".

3. The meeting was in an employee's break room. Normally this isn't monitored, but it can be. In US terms, she had no actual expectation of privacy there, which is why she used her black box. Actually every room and corridor can be monitored. (Isn't this one of the ways the "anti-hijack" program is supposed to work?) Of course, this liner doesn't do this because they respect the privacy of its patrons.

4. Jakii hasn't been arrested. She's only going to be questioned and let go after a few hours. Unless she threatens them like you would.

5. Also, they did not "break" into the room they were meeting in. They used a security override key, pretty much like opened the stateroom of the dead woman.

6. You're assuming that security isn't looking into other possibilities as well. However, the fact that Jakii will probably refuse to cooperate with them won't make them any happier at her.

Again, this is an Empire, with a feudal system and a parliament. It isn't a democracy at all. Everything the ship's security has done is legal, and Jakii is the best suspect at this time.

This is a murder mystery. I have a group of players that have not played together before. I needed something they can't walk away from. Access to her ship is sealed. Now these characters have a real reason to find the real murderer. Jakii can't blow her cover while *on* the ship, but she *can* try to find the real murderer and lead security to him somehow. I'm just hoping that I planted enough clues (the clues are all such that when they find one, the rest of the clues leading that way were never there in the first place).

If anybody has any *positive* suggestions on how to run a murder mystery like this, I'd be glad to listen.
-
Jay

Thank you for the clarifications. As far as I knew, this was a standard canon universe with perhaps a few personal twists. And it wasn't initially an employee break room; it was a "locked meeting room". Evading monitoring in a crew space - and Security's rights in response - are an order of magnitude different from evading monitoring in a luxury liner's passenger meeting room.

Antihijack: "This program constantly monitors conditions within the starship, and automatically locks the access doors to the bridge and controls when a hijack situation occurs. Because this system is not foolproof, would-be hijackers may gain access in spite of the program on a throw of 5 or less."

I read this as monitoring public areas for any behavior that might indicate a hijack threat. That's not the same as monitoring private spaces. The computer can lock doors in a fraction of a second just by observing that someone not recognizable as a crewman - or a crewman with someone following him in an odd way, or someone in crew uniform whose face is not in the crew database - is approaching the wrong door while walking down the hallway. No need to monitor private spaces far from the door to meet that need.

A few thoughts, though:
The democracy angle is irrelevant. It's the culture angle I'm thinking of. Even in a despotic government, there can be areas where trying to pry is likely to lead to open revolt - cameras in bedrooms or toilet stalls, for example. On the other hand, not all cultures have that strong urge for privacy, so you could possibly have a democracy so very open that it doesn't see a problem with spying in the bedroom or the toilet, on the "only criminals have something to hide" philosophy. If your culture has a very strong "get the bad guy at all costs" vibe going, then even the powerful are likely to be more accepting of monitoring and intrusion than we are accustomed to. Even restraining someone briefly and holding them against their will for interview on mere suspicion might be acceptable.

If you want the adventurers to get serious about finding the bad guy, you've got to make it look like there's serious evidence against them - maybe not damning, but enough that they're really worried they're going to be honestly convicted, not just set up by the game master. Think Jack in "Titanic", found with incriminating jewelry in his pocket thanks to a quick-fingered and unethical bodyguard.

Maybe the dead woman invited one of the adventurers into her room to discuss a shady business proposition, and now the adventurer is trying to explain why his fingerprints are in the dead woman's room without giving away that he was discussing something illegal with her. Maybe she was drunk and flirted with one of the adventurers in public at a shipboard party, then slapped him - and that was the last time she was seen alive. Maybe her jewels were found stuffed in a vent in the hall outside their cabin. Link the adventurers more solidly to the crime, and THEN link them to the suspicious woman, and it begins to look like they were acting as her agents in some scheme that went fatally wrong - and worse, they face the risk that this MoJ agent could sell them out in some way that lets her walk free to pursue her own investigation. NOW, they've got solid motive to work their hearts out finding the real baddie.

After that - I have no idea. A lot depends on who actually did it, what his or her motives were, what their resources are like, what skills they have, how clever they are. You've got to put yourself in the killer's mind and try to figure out how he'd conceal his crime - and what mistakes he's likely to make that the players can find. And, how's he likely to react as the adventurers find his mistakes? Will he know? Will he react by trying to plant evidence against them, or by trying to destroy the evidence they find, or by trying to kill the adventurers to hide his role? Depends on how he thinks, whether he's straightforward or devious or impulsive, etc.

There's going to be a spot of trouble with the adventurers being both suspect and investigators on a ship - the crew's not likely to be willing to give the adventurers full access to evidence, for fear the adventurers would simply use that information to craft alibis and defense. Can you leave at least one of the adventurers with enough trust from Ship Security that he can access the evidence, get a look at ship's cameras, find out what's in the computers, maybe get an idea of what "cards" Security is holding? Maybe one of his old army buddies is in the Security force and is willing to bend a few rules to help an old buddy in trouble.

I get the impression there's a lot unstated here. If it's off-base, sorry, it's the best I can do with what's provided.

 

[rancke]

I get the impression there's a lot unstated here. If it's off-base, sorry, it's the best I can do with what's provided.

I'll just add one thing to Carlo's exellent points. One must watch out for unstated assumptions. Unless told otherwise, players are apt to assume that things work the way they are used to them working. Mores, customs, laws; unless told otherwise they'll unconciously assume that the mores, customs, and laws that apply in their own culture also apply in the game universe. And indeed, unless the differences have been spelled out for them, what else do they have to guide them?


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Hush!

Thank you for the clarifications. As far as I knew, this was a standard canon universe with perhaps a few personal twists. And it wasn't initially an employee break room; it was a "locked meeting room". Evading monitoring in a crew space - and Security's rights in response - are an order of magnitude different from evading monitoring in a luxury liner's passenger meeting room.

Antihijack: "This program constantly monitors conditions within the starship, and automatically locks the access doors to the bridge and controls when a hijack situation occurs. Because this system is not foolproof, would-be hijackers may gain access in spite of the program on a throw of 5 or less."

I read this as monitoring public areas for any behavior that might indicate a hijack threat. That's not the same as monitoring private spaces. The computer can lock doors in a fraction of a second just by observing that someone not recognizable as a crewman - or a crewman with someone following him in an odd way, or someone in crew uniform whose face is not in the crew database - is approaching the wrong door while walking down the hallway. No need to monitor private spaces far from the door to meet that need.

A few thoughts, though:
The democracy angle is irrelevant. It's the culture angle I'm thinking of. Even in a despotic government, there can be areas where trying to pry is likely to lead to open revolt - cameras in bedrooms or toilet stalls, for example. On the other hand, not all cultures have that strong urge for privacy, so you could possibly have a democracy so very open that it doesn't see a problem with spying in the bedroom or the toilet, on the "only criminals have something to hide" philosophy. If your culture has a very strong "get the bad guy at all costs" vibe going, then even the powerful are likely to be more accepting of monitoring and intrusion than we are accustomed to. Even restraining someone briefly and holding them against their will for interview on mere suspicion might be acceptable.

If you want the adventurers to get serious about finding the bad guy, you've got to make it look like there's serious evidence against them - maybe not damning, but enough that they're really worried they're going to be honestly convicted, not just set up by the game master. Think Jack in "Titanic", found with incriminating jewelry in his pocket thanks to a quick-fingered and unethical bodyguard.

Maybe the dead woman invited one of the adventurers into her room to discuss a shady business proposition, and now the adventurer is trying to explain why his fingerprints are in the dead woman's room without giving away that he was discussing something illegal with her. Maybe she was drunk and flirted with one of the adventurers in public at a shipboard party, then slapped him - and that was the last time she was seen alive. Maybe her jewels were found stuffed in a vent in the hall outside their cabin. Link the adventurers more solidly to the crime, and THEN link them to the suspicious woman, and it begins to look like they were acting as her agents in some scheme that went fatally wrong - and worse, they face the risk that this MoJ agent could sell them out in some way that lets her walk free to pursue her own investigation. NOW, they've got solid motive to work their hearts out finding the real baddie.

After that - I have no idea. A lot depends on who actually did it, what his or her motives were, what their resources are like, what skills they have, how clever they are. You've got to put yourself in the killer's mind and try to figure out how he'd conceal his crime - and what mistakes he's likely to make that the players can find. And, how's he likely to react as the adventurers find his mistakes? Will he know? Will he react by trying to plant evidence against them, or by trying to destroy the evidence they find, or by trying to kill the adventurers to hide his role? Depends on how he thinks, whether he's straightforward or devious or impulsive, etc.

There's going to be a spot of trouble with the adventurers being both suspect and investigators on a ship - the crew's not likely to be willing to give the adventurers full access to evidence, for fear the adventurers would simply use that information to craft alibis and defense. Can you leave at least one of the adventurers with enough trust from Ship Security that he can access the evidence, get a look at ship's cameras, find out what's in the computers, maybe get an idea of what "cards" Security is holding? Maybe one of his old army buddies is in the Security force and is willing to bend a few rules to help an old buddy in trouble.

I get the impression there's a lot unstated here. If it's off-base, sorry, it's the best I can do with what's provided.

Dangnabbit, don't help the Ref put players' heads in the noose, let players do that.

And yeah, part of that whole Age of Sail thing is that while at sea the security and safety of the ship and its passengers and crew allow them get away with more than a modern day crew might be allowed to do. Like space you...

 

[rancke]

And yeah, part of that whole Age of Sail thing is that while at sea the security and safety of the ship and its passengers and crew allow them get away with more than a modern day crew might be allowed to do. Like space you...

Actually, historically authorities have tended to ask awkward questions when ships arrived in port with missing passengers or crew. Or missing crew and passenger manifests...


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yep.

Actually, historically authorities have tended to ask awkward questions when ships arrived in port with missing passengers or crew. Or missing crew and passenger manifests...


Hans

And even today on the most modern sea going ships known to humankind we still have ships loose people. It happens and that isn't because we spaced some one on purpose, it's because space like the sea is very unforgiving of stupid or not paying attention to details.

So, I stand by my statement, the Captain is the Law when at Sea. And yes he will have to answer for his or his delegates' actions but unless he has a habit of sloppily offing the wrong people spacing one murdering jewel thief with a record and a body is probably going to the Captain's favor.

 

[rancke]

And even today on the most modern sea going ships known to humankind we still have ships loose people. It happens and that isn't because we spaced some one on purpose, it's because space like the sea is very unforgiving of stupid or not paying attention to details.

And when that happens there are witnesses to the absence of foul play.

So, I stand by my statement, the Captain is the Law when at Sea. And yes he will have to answer for his or his delegates' actions but unless he has a habit of sloppily offing the wrong people spacing one murdering jewel thief with a record and a body is probably going to the Captain's favor.

Sure, if he can trust every one of his crew to keep their mouth shut when interrogated, he stands a good chance of getting away with it.

That isn't always enough, though. I can't recall any of the examples off the top of my head, but there are cases of ships' crews being tried for murder because they couldn't prove that they hadn't killed the missing passengers or crewmembers (Yes, that's reversal of the burden of proof; it has happened).

EDIT: Another thing: Even though interstellar travel in Traveller resembles the Age of Sail in some ways, it doesn't resemble it in all ways. One rather crucial difference in this connection is the ease of going over the side of a sailing ship accidentally compared to the extreme difficulty of getting outside a starship hull accidentally. A captain who shows up with a missing passenger or crewman had better have a real good explanation for how the body left the ship.


Hans

 

[DangerousThing]

I'm grappling with a couple things

1)Why are murders committed?

While there are a lot of reasons, I'm thinking it's mostly because someone is unhappy with their current life. If this is the case, why commit murder to change your life then hop a ship to evade the law. Why not just hop a ship thereby changing your life. Would this make people with the means of fleeing/changing their life less likely to commit premeditated murder? Obviously there would still be "crimes of passion".

What else am I missing with just a simple surface analysis?

Many people have asked themselves this question, and I'm sure you'll find lots of answers.

When I was young, I often wondered why murders were committed when it would have been easier just to pay some people off. As I get older, I think that most murders are committed out of fear. Often it's a silly fear to other people. Around our neck of the woods, a man killed his entire family (wife and children and tried to kill himself) because he was afraid to tell them that he was laid off at work.

People kill blackmailers because they're afraid that whatever the blackmailer has will get out, one way or the other.

And then there are people who kill with true good intentions. Let's imagine my grandmother, bedridden, in constant pain, unable to communicate well because of Parkinson's Disease, and in a nursing home. If she had her choice, maybe she'd rather have died. Would it have been moral of my parents to have helped her die? Or would it be more moral to allow her to lay in her own filth and be miserable all day? As a dog owner, one of my responsibilities is to figure out when she is too sick to enjoy living at all. We do that mercy for a dog, why not a parent?

(And no, as far as I know my grandmother never asked to die. And I don't believe my parents would have helped her.)

2) Why do governments try to catch murderers?

If a murderer of a local person has left the system why would they be sought? In some systems exile could be preferable to expensive incarceration and attempt to rehabilitate. Just make sure the person never comes back.

Depending on the situation, I could see a non government effort to exact justice (get revenge).

3) Person non gratis. Even if it's too expensive or not politically practical to return a suspected murderer to the originating local, that doesn't mean you are welcoming them with open arms. "Sorry, there is an outstanding warrant for you in system xyz." You can't pass customs, your work visa (obtained prior to becoming aware of warrant) is revoked, and so on...

Well, some systems of "justice" prefer seeing a murderer killed. I don't agree with that, but in the real world most states in the US have the death penalty, but not all.

Also, sometimes the public demands that somebody be caught in order to bring closure to something. For example, a serial murderer who terrorized a large city might *have* to be caught by the powers that be to prove he won't be coming back again.

What if the murderer escaped with some damning information about a powerful politician or noble. They might want the person back to make sure that the evidence dies with the murderer.

In a Traveller universe, some systems would prefer the permanent exile thing. IMTU, I require a visa to visit a planet. You must provide your papers and your ID (sort of like a passport, but it is *extremely* difficult to fake); the visa is available at the starport and is given according to the rules that the planetary government gives them. And there is a "Nice" and "Naughty" list. If you're on the "Naughty" list than you can't get your visa and hence can't legally exit the starport. Of course, if you're clever, you can get around this (bribery, finding another exit, that sort of thing). However, this is an Imperial crime, and the penalty can be severe (or light, it depends on the evidence and who is hearing your case).

As for a non government means of extracting revenge, that's what bounty hunters are for. And yes, there are some who will, for an additional fee, "accidentally" kill the bounty. They've been discussed on earlier postings in this thread.

I note that this posting is more than a bit long and rambling. I blame the fact that I'm extremely tired.

So thank you for reading this far.
-
Jay