Law and Communication

[Dragoner]

Certain traits are inherent in the organizational structure, especially when combined with the time-lag issues.

These include the non-monolithic nature of the local structure, the needed authority level for those in various positions (noting that subsector dukes seem to be just about totally nerfed by JTAS 14), and that there is a top-down authoritarianism that ensures enforcement of certain crimes.

There's strong implication of a heavy handed dose of the Tarkin doctrine, too. ("Fear will keep the local systems in line.")

Further, it's implied that the Navy and Marine training standards are pretty uniform throughout the 3I, and that they tend to get moved around a good bit. This, too, will help keep cultural drift down.

There is a strong tendency in local worlds (due to the world generation system) to have authoritarian governments dominant. (Per capita, they are way out of whack...) Democracy is rare, and tends to be smaller worlds.

Grabbing the pop 9 and 10 worlds in the marches, and their gov and law codes...:
The Gov'ts (# @ gov : pop in US Billions... xE9)
2@3: 16B - Self Perpetuating Oligarchy (two worlds, Low and No law - not standard generation)
1@4: _8B Representative Democracy
1@6: _3B Captive
4@7: 35B Balkanized
7@8: 63B Civil Service Bureacracy
4@9: 23B Impersonal Bureaucracy
3@A: 35B Charismatic Dictator
2@B: 37B Non-Charismatic Dictator
3@C: 15B Religious Dictatorship
1@D: _4B Religious Autocracy

Out of 256 billion Imperials (roughly) in the Marches.
over 86 billion live under bureaucracies - about 33.6%
Over 87 billion live under dictatorships - right about 34.0%
And these 26 worlds comprise 223 Billion of those 256 Billion people, 87.1% of the imperials in the marches.

Total democratic imperials in the marches (Gov's 2 & 4)...
0.1B direct democracies under 0.1%
9.5B representative democracies 3.7%

68M Imperials in the marches live on worlds with law level 9+; 51B of them live at law level A+. Another 59B live at Law 8...

We CAN start to draw some conclusions: the average imperial citizen is disenfranchised, and has little to no personal freedoms. Over a 3rd of them have daily or more contact with law enforcement. (3 checks per day, 8- 26/36, 72%, expectation of 2 contacts per day.)
of the 87% on the "big pop worlds", the average law level (including the illegal Gov 3's) is 6.9...

The Big Imperial Worlds:
P G L People
9 3 0 8,000,000,000
9 3 4 8,000,000,000
9 4 3 8,000,000,000
9 6 5 3,000,000,000
9 7 4 2,000,000,000
9 7 5 6,000,000,000
9 7 7 7,000,000,000
A 7 4 20,000,000,000
9 8 4 8,000,000,000
9 8 6 8,000,000,000
9 8 7 2,000,000,000
9 8 8 6,000,000,000
9 8 8 9,000,000,000
A 8 7 20,000,000,000
A 8 8 10,000,000,000
9 9 8 3,000,000,000
9 9 9 6,000,000,000
9 9 C 4,000,000,000
A 9 6 10,000,000,000
9 A 9 3,000,000,000
9 A B 2,000,000,000
A A 8 30,000,000,000
9 B 9 7,000,000,000
A B D 30,000,000,000
9 C A 3,000,000,000
9 C C 2,000,000,000
A C 7 10,000,000,000
9 D F 4,000,000,000
Data from Travellermap.com.

Good post, nice compilation and analyzation of data. The caveat is in interpetation, which pretty much strays into "how dark is your Imperium" territory. Democracy is a funny term, one could say the prerequisite is freedom, but that fails when one looks at historical examples of slave owning democracies. Some countries call themselves democracies but few outside would agree they are democratic. Some are against the "tyranny of the majority" style of democracy as well. Thus plenty of government types could be called democracies, even though they are really type 3,8,9 etc. government codes.

Even to say contact with the police is subject to a definition, such as normative is for the police actually asking for ID would be contact. If one used the idea of an encounter, that would just be seeing a police car, that happens all the time without contact.

Military training would provide some acculturation, however the x-boat networks would be the lion's share, imo. Mass media is a much better medium and is what does do it in large countries without universal military service today.

The question of how the nobility works is an odd one, I realized how little I actually knew about the British nobility in the other discussion and I would have to say there are key differences between them and Austria. With those differences even in such a small area, the idea of multipliying it by 11,000 worlds becomes such that any definition might work for a world, but not the entire Imperium.

 

[Hemdian]

We CAN start to draw some conclusions: the average imperial citizen is disenfranchised, and has little to no personal freedoms. Over a 3rd of them have daily or more contact with law enforcement. (3 checks per day, 8- 26/36, 72%, expectation of 2 contacts per day.) of the 87% on the "big pop worlds", the average law level (including the illegal Gov 3's) is 6.9...

Interesting. But you have to be really careful about this kind of extrapolation. The key point to remember is that UPP codes like Law Level and Gov Code represent how a Traveller to a world will interact with it rather than a more general description.

Marc Miller described the rational with regards to Gov Codes in an article in High Passage #2 (this article is included in the Apocrypha 2 disk from FFE) and despite the relative obscurity of that article he has recently indicated that he still feels it to be relevant. To illustrate this point the USA (IIRC) appears under one Gov Code during FDR, but a different code post-FDR … yet at both times would have been viewed by locals as a ‘democracy’.

As for Law Level (applying the same principle), think of the number of contacts per day as applying to obvious outsiders. Strangers from offworld are far more likely to draw police attention than locals just going about their business.

So when inferring the nature of life in the 3I from the perspective of average citizens, you may find this lightens the tone somewhat.

 

[Dragoner]

Marc also states the Imperium is a feudal technocracy:

Feudal Technocracy. Government
by specific individuals for those who
agree to be ruled. Relationships are
based on the performance of technical
activities which are mutually beneficial.

Bk3

So it seems there is a consensual relationship, probably not as individuals but the various worlds consent to be governed. The Sector Duke could be Joe Schmoe raised to Duke to be the Sector Govenor by the Emperor. Imperial nobles have no "divine right" backing them up, they have the Imperial armed forces for that. I love one Emperor declared himself Emperor by right of fleet control.

 

[aramis]

As for Law Level (applying the same principle), think of the number of contacts per day as applying to obvious outsiders. Strangers from offworld are far more likely to draw police attention than locals just going about their business.

So when inferring the nature of life in the 3I from the perspective of average citizens, you may find this lightens the tone somewhat.

Small problem: explicitly not the case in several of the alien modules.

 

[AndreaV]

Interesting. But you have to be really careful about this kind of extrapolation. The key point to remember is that UPP codes like Law Level and Gov Code represent how a Traveller to a world will interact with it rather than a more general description.

Marc Miller described the rational with regards to Gov Codes in an article in High Passage #2 (this article is included in the Apocrypha 2 disk from FFE) and despite the relative obscurity of that article he has recently indicated that he still feels it to be relevant. To illustrate this point the USA (IIRC) appears under one Gov Code during FDR, but a different code post-FDR … yet at both times would have been viewed by locals as a ‘democracy’.

As for Law Level (applying the same principle), think of the number of contacts per day as applying to obvious outsiders. Strangers from offworld are far more likely to draw police attention than locals just going about their business.

So when inferring the nature of life in the 3I from the perspective of average citizens, you may find this lightens the tone somewhat.

Perhaps true, in the case of contact with law enforcement probably even. But you look through all the published sectors and you find the same pattern. The vast majority of Imperial citizens live on worlds where they are disenfranchised and many face quite oppressive legal systems. One of the things about MT is that Dulinor was right, the Imperium allows oppressive dictatorships to rule most of its citizens, justifying it under the "we don't interfere in local affairs" clause. From a realpolitik POV it even makes sense, you just have to deal with the limited entrenched elites rather than a potentially unstable popular vote.

 

[Hemdian]

Small problem: explicitly not the case in several of the alien modules.

Yes, I think not all of the Traveller authors were onboard with that concept (whether they didn't hear it, didn't understand it, or rejected it ... at this stage who can tell). But without it ...

I once had an argument with someone who believed the 3I was actively anti-communist and would never tollerate a communist world within it's borders. His evidence was the lack of Gov code for communism.

Whether you want communist run worlds IYTU or not, having this looser interpretation or UPPs removes this restriction. And if you apply it to Gov codes you should also apply it to Law levels. Published UPPs should be viewed as more 'guide book' interpretations than literal truths.

So maybe the alien modules are in error on this.

 

[Hemdian]

<snip>

My point is you can't tell if the average citizen of a world feels disenfranchised based on the UPP alone. My interpretation of Dulinor's position was that in a significant minority of case they did, and the 3I's non-interferrence policy allowed social injustices (on worlds where they occured) to continue unchecked. In other words, not a blanket "he was right" but he may have been right for a significant minority.

 

[aramis]

Yes, I think not all of the Traveller authors were onboard with that concept (whether they didn't hear it, didn't understand it, or rejected it ... at this stage who can tell). But without it ...

I once had an argument with someone who believed the 3I was actively anti-communist and would never tollerate a communist world within it's borders. His evidence was the lack of Gov code for communism.

Whether you want communist run worlds IYTU or not, having this looser interpretation or UPPs removes this restriction. And if you apply it to Gov codes you should also apply it to Law levels. Published UPPs should be viewed as more 'guide book' interpretations than literal truths.

So maybe the alien modules are in error on this.

Mongoose specifically reworked Law Levels from the other direction... they tell you what level of control of the average citizen is. And how much trade is allowed.

I will say that I think the main book system is for generating human-occupied worlds... and seems to presuppose a drive of autocracy arising from increased population.

 

[Easterner9504]

Law

The Scout security branch can cross extrality lines, so if your wanted bad enough you can be got. (FIRST IN)

1 Jump Away

This was common in pre-radio days. It was called exile. In ancient Rome if you saw the trial wasn't going your way it was common to go into self exile. The government was happy to be rid of you and you'd commit no more crimes in its jurisdiction. In 1500-1800 heading for colonies was popular if law on your tail.

Political Criminals are those most likely to be sought.

Travellers

In order to prevent stagnation that killed 1st & 2nd Imperiums a visionary like Cleon I wanted an ace in the hole. Some one who could shake things up and influence events large and small. Why are Travellers sought out by men of power and influence to handle often world threatening situations?

It is likely somewhere in the original charter that Travellers are bound by Imperial Law not local. So independents are sought out for jobs, some highly illegal, others skirt the edges, some are fine but collateral damage occurs. So TRAVS if arrested on such a mission can appeal to the Imperium as COTI's and might get picked up by Scout Security and whisked off either to freedom or if they got out of hand a bit to a Prison Planet. No other reason (other than, ITS JUST A GAME) I can see why Tukera and Barons and other such lofty personages put so much time into hiring freelance adventurers who may or may not have a reputation preceding them.

Money always talks, flat broke peons unlikely to be able to flee 1JA.

 

[Dragoner]

Perhaps true, in the case of contact with law enforcement probably even. But you look through all the published sectors and you find the same pattern. The vast majority of Imperial citizens live on worlds where they are disenfranchised and many face quite oppressive legal systems. One of the things about MT is that Dulinor was right, the Imperium allows oppressive dictatorships to rule most of its citizens, justifying it under the "we don't interfere in local affairs" clause. From a realpolitik POV it even makes sense, you just have to deal with the limited entrenched elites rather than a potentially unstable popular vote.

Welcome home, son.

Sounds like the Terra of the early 21st century.

 

[Carlobrand]

Traveller gives us a potential combination between the Old West and futuristic uber-tech. How successful your perp is in disappearing depends on where he commits the crime. High tech can be used to identify him genetically - even to mapping the genes to find out what he looks like - and possibly even track him by the genetic traces he leaves behind from place to place, but that depends on the crime scene being someplace where high tech tools can be brought to bear. High law level suggests a strong motivation by the government to solve such crimes, if only to discourage further lawlessness.

Still, even in Cowboy-era New Mexico, at TL 4 or 5, murderers were tracked down and apprehended - or shot down while resisting arrest in some desolate corner of wilderness. And borders are only as effective as the people patroling them: in 1917, the Powers boys fled to Mexico after killing three lawmen, only to be apprehended by a U.S. army patrol sent to track them down.

On a lower tech world, your players are limited to the same techniques Sherlock Holmes employs - a bit of simple science and a lot of ingenuity. Remember, your murderer is still trapped by his own circumstances: he killed for a reason, however strange that reason may be to others, and his resources likely have limits. (The wealthy don't flee their messes - they pay others to clean them up.) His motive, his method, and his resource limits - his psychology and his tools - are going to say a lot about him and what he's likely to do on the lam, and a clever detective can use that to pick up his trail and track him down.

Most killers are not professionals. If your killer is jumping planet to escape arrest, he fits that mold: the local pros at any tech level wouldn't need to skip planet. So, he's reacting rather then acting to any plan, and that means he's predictable. His skill set and resources for altering identity and evading pursuit are limited - or again he'd not be needing to skip planet; that passage money could as easily have placed him in another city on the same planet with quite a bit of money left for other needs. So, why he skipped planet instead of trying to disappear on his own world could offer clues as well.

A little careful thinking, a little money to persuade people to talk, a good scent-hound, a few locals knowledgeable about the right people to talk to and the best local hiding places, maybe some posters and a nice reward to persuade others to do your job for you, and he's wormfood no matter how low the tech level or how far he runs.

 

[AndreaV]

Ohhh a new person Hiya

Even nowadays, most crimes are solved using good ol' fashioned detective skills. High tech "CSI" type investigations are **expensive** and time consuming, so tend to be reserved for only the most high profile cases (google CSI effect, the results are interesting). Like you say, most criminals (not only murderers) are far from "professional" and make simple easy to detect mistakes.

 

[DangerousThing]

The way I figure it, which may not be correct at all, is that information flows around the Empire (OK, I don't use the OTU, but I still have the same non-FTL radio, so you have to use ships) somewhat chaotically, but it usually gets there.

IMTU:

Fugitives:

One thing that everybody seems to be overlooking is the amount of people fleeing crimes. Given a cluster of high population worlds, there might be several murders a week on *each* world. That's a lot of information and wanted posters to spread around.

I figure once you've gone about 20 parsecs, your chance of being picked up by the Empire is almost nil. In fact, they don't really care about murders (unless a noble was murdered). I also figure that everybody carries an Imperial ID. This is linked to *you* and cannot be easily changed (you need a *very* expensive specialist to even change it a little). Any world with a list of ID's to check for will check as you exit the starport.

However the further you get from the source of your troubles, the safer you are.

Think of how many "wanted" notices are in our post offices right now (in the US). Now, if all planets sent wanted notices to all planets within 10 parsec, how many notices would each planet get? And how much would each planet care about the square dancers (to quote an earlier posting), and how many such such notices are there?

Communication:

The communications machinery used for FTL email are made by a small group of companies with an Imperial charter. However, this encrypts and digests the mail when it gets into the system. If the originator of the message didn't have access to such equipment, then it is *possible* that a man-in-the-middle attack could be made.

 

[Whipsnade]

From a realpolitik POV it even makes sense, you just have to deal with the limited entrenched elites rather than a potentially unstable popular vote.

When we remember that the Third Imperium made it's membership sales pitch to the rulers of worlds and not the populations of the same, is that in any way surprising?

The Imperium is an association of governments and not an association of citizens. That is why I continually suggest that we shed our 21st Century Western liberal democratic blinders concerning governments, the role of governments, and the relationship between governments and the governed.

 

[Hemdian]

The Imperium is an association of governments and not an association of citizens.

Nicely put.

 

[Hemdian]

I figure once you've gone about 20 parsecs, your chance of being picked up by the Empire is almost nil.

While I can see a low TL world not having adequate checking (and thus being a potential safe haven) I see no reason for a warrant not to travel the entire length of the 3I ... eventually. So it might be several years later before a warrant catches up with you, but sooner or later, it will.

A problem I do see is when someone is served a warrant, extradited back to the world where the crime allegedly took place, but then found 'not guilty' in a court of law (or whatever the local equivalent is). Even with a 'cancel' message being circulated, there will be a delay in all instances of said warrant being cancelled. So there is always a risk of being re-arrested under an out-of-date warrant.

 

[Whipsnade]

While I can see a low TL world not having adequate checking (and thus being a potential safe haven) I see no reason for a warrant not to travel the entire length of the 3I ... eventually.

The only warrants I see traveling the breadth of the Imperium are Imperial warrants. I don't believe an imperial government which boasts about non-interference with planetary affairs will put much effort in enforcing purely planetary warrants beyond that planet's system and - most importantly - I don't believe the same government will allow planets to enforce their own warrants beyond their system.

Think about it for a moment. What's stopping mighty Hi Pop-III from dispatching the 117th Armored Process Server Brigade (Gravitic) to snatch up whatever fugitives it wants from tiny Backwater-V, Jerkwater-II, and Podunk-X? The Imperium allegedly doesn't much like multi-system polities within its borders, despite several canonical examples of the same, so what's the difference between Hi Pop-III dispatching a governor to Podunk-X to directly implement Hi Pop policies and Hi Pop-III dispatching warrants to Podunk-X to indirectly implement Hi Pop policies by imposing the Hi Pop legal system?

As Aramis pointed out, extradition between US states is not an automatic or even a foregone process. One famous example occurred in 1841 when a treason warrant issued by Rhode Island for Thomas Dorr after the Dorr Rebellion was deliberately ignored by New York because New York felt the Rhode Island charges were baseless. Extradition between EU member nations isn't automatic either.

With 11,000 systems, 11,000 governments, and 11,000 legal systems, something which is illegal on one world will be mandatory on the next. The member worlds of the Imperium simply cannot enforce any and all off-planet warrants which comes their way because those warrants could very well embody the antithesis of the local legal system and, if it is to maintain any pretense of being an interstellar government, the Imperium simply cannot allow worlds to enforce their own warrants beyond their own system.

IMTU the Imperium vets all off-planet warrants, it is a task for which the nobility is responsible. The nobles in question or, more likely, their legal staffs judge the merits of each off-planet warrant and subsequent extradition request. In some cases the "requestee" planet in question is directed to apprehend and hand over the sophont in question, in some cases the "requesting" planet is allowed to send officials to perform the task, in other cases the warrant is denied, and in still others it is ignored.

Naturally, the basis on which each warrant and extadition request is judged is purely political. The Imperial nobility is not going to make value judgments regarding member world legal systems. Instead, they will decide on the basis of what is best for the Imperium.

None of this prevents the use of bounty hunters however. They just need to be very discrete and not get caught.

 

[BytePro]

Yeah that's how I see it, even when not playing OTU.

Basically things that interfere with interstellar commerce - other things are more situational (war between systems that respect the neutrality of commercial ships and ports being generally ok - assuming no system is intending to secede).

Crimes in extraterritorial locations, crimes against governments or whole populations would be handled at the higher level (Imperial) - other crimes would be considered local affairs... requiring extradition appeals and other negotiations. Foreign officials could seek out fugitives within the law levels of other worlds, but most would be considered criminal themselves if they just apprehended (kidnapped) same.

 

[Hemdian]

(snip)

Yes, that sounds similar to IMTU. When I talked of warrants travelling across the 3I I was referring to "Imperial warrants" (issued directly by the 3I) and "Imperial-sanctioned warrants" (issued by a member world and vetted/approved by the MOJ). IMTU this vetting is a major function of the MOJ (following standardised criteria) rather than nobles ... of course there can be noble interference in the process. But once in the system, those warrants travel everywhere eventually. And the fact that many local laws do not qualify for an Imperial sanctioned warrant does open up a market for bounty hunters. The MOJ does not enforce Imperial-sanctioned warrants but does 'expect' member worlds to generally enforce them (subject to local conditions) ... wide-spread non-enforcement is a breach of membership.

 

[Carlobrand]

...

Fugitives:

One thing that everybody seems to be overlooking is the amount of people fleeing crimes. Given a cluster of high population worlds, there might be several murders a week on *each* world. That's a lot of information and wanted posters to spread around.

I figure once you've gone about 20 parsecs, your chance of being picked up by the Empire is almost nil. In fact, they don't really care about murders (unless a noble was murdered). I also figure that everybody carries an Imperial ID. This is linked to *you* and cannot be easily changed (you need a *very* expensive specialist to even change it a little). Any world with a list of ID's to check for will check as you exit the starport.

However the further you get from the source of your troubles, the safer you are.

Think of how many "wanted" notices are in our post offices right now (in the US). Now, if all planets sent wanted notices to all planets within 10 parsec, how many notices would each planet get? And how much would each planet care about the square dancers (to quote an earlier posting), and how many such such notices are there? ...

First, I don't see the Imperium enforcing local laws. I do see the Imperium "greasing the wheels" for the various systems to cooperate with each other. Thus, Planet-A putting out a "wanted" alert has an expectation that Planet-B, a fellow member of the Imperium, will give the alert "due diligence". Now, what "due diligence" means depends on their law level and government type - a low-law world might file it away and only take action of the suspect gets jailed for some other reason, while a high-law world might be very, very diligent indeed. Politics might also take a hand - perhaps the local Democratic government suspects the neighboring Dictatorship is filing false charges to get their hands on critics or political foes: the Dems file that one in the "when-pigs-fly" file. Thus, you might escape entirely while "next door" on a law level 0 world, or you could be apprehended and shipped back across 20 parsecs from a law level 9 world.

Second, I don't see too many fugitives hopping a star-freighter across 20 parsecs when the base cost is Cr10,000 per 1-3 light years, or Cr1000 and a possible death sentence if you're unlucky. A few perhaps, but unless your population is rather low, your planet's environment is such that there's just no way to hide, or your local tech and law level are high enough that you're struggling to evade gene-sniffers, hiding on your own world is often the better bet - worlds are rather big places, and not too many murderers just happen to have Cr10,000 or even Cr1,000 where they can grab it quick while dashing for the starport. There were 14,748 murders in the U.S. in 2010 - only a small fraction of those fled the country. Crossing 20 parsecs to evade justice is a rich man's game, the kind of thing you'd expect from a nobleman's son in trouble or a mob boss who found himself in a hard way.

I also don't think you're giving full credit to technology. If all Planet-A can give Planet-B is a wanted poster, then yes you stand a good chance of evading arrest. If on the other hand, Planet-B has effective facial-recognition software and an integrated public camera network, or Planet-A offers a genetic profile and Planet-B can use that, then you're likely to find yourself busted in short order. A lot depends on where the murder occurred and where you flee.

... Communication:

The communications machinery used for FTL email are made by a small group of companies with an Imperial charter. However, this encrypts and digests the mail when it gets into the system. If the originator of the message didn't have access to such equipment, then it is *possible* that a man-in-the-middle attack could be made.

Wha...? "FTL" E-mail is just e-mail transmitted to the computer of a ship that's jumping somewhere - or else stored on some sort of data storage device for transport. There's nothing to it that posits "a small group of companies with an Imperial charter," unless you've decided that all computers in the Imperium are manufactured by this small group.