Knighthood - MSB

[Mythmere]

I know there's a whole system for giving people titles, and all, but I'd like to see some people knighted for specific stuff, too.

I'd nominate Larsen Whipsnade for the Wounded Colossus timeline, Chris Thrash for canon expertise and willingness to make that knowledge available, and Falkayn for the ship design worksheet.

The people cry out for the knighthood of these individuals.

Cry out, people.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
The people cry out for the knighthood of these individuals.

That's a tough one.

You make it an easy thing to get, you get too many, it means little.

But if you start handing out things to people based on a few people's recommendation, then you have that problem.

Not to denigrate citizen Thrash or Mr. Whipsnade, for whom I have much respect despite the occasional clashing PoV, but there are a lot of other really great contributions out there too. And I dare say I'd feel dangerous being the arbitrer of such a populist assessment.

Now, perhaps there should be a way to petition for a particular piece or lifetime contribution to deserve a meritorious notice (perhaps a knighthood or whatever... perhaps you get to name a character on some back woods planet or something that then becomes a trivial but noteworthy part of the OTU or something... all sorts of ideas present themselves). But such a petition should require many petitioners and would thus require a large body of public support.

Otherwise, you risk trivializing things.

Besides, people work these things up because they like to and it gives them pleasure. That is still the best motivation and reward.

 

[Mythmere]

Well, I'm naming three people, so I don't think it's trivializing. Further, I'm proposing a specific order - not to foreclose more prestigious orders granted for other acts. The order of the messageboard would still be for Hunter and company to actually award: I'm just saying consider these individuals for some sort of recognition. And other people, too - I know I've left out several major contributors, though most, like Tfoster, already have some sort of title.

Some order of knighthood should come from the accolades of the masses.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
Well, I'm naming three people, so I don't think it's trivializing.

Some order of knighthood should come from the accolades of the masses.

If you're only talking about their contributions *here* rather than to the OTU/game itself, then that's a little different. But there are lots of people who've done good work for the game that probalby don't show up here very often but ignoring them (if the context was overall contributions to the game) would be trivializing.

If the context is strictly the participants of the message board, I suppose that is different.

And your last statement is wildly ironic - that the signpost of oligarchy and absolute monarchial or imperial power should somehow derive from the populist support.... ... that's funny.... (I may, I entirely concede, have a warped sense of humour).

So, if you mean strictly within the context of their contributions herein (and not elsewhere), then I suppose Citizen Thrash and Mr. Whipsnade and a few others have done a lot of good work.

Mind you, I'd have thought stars and SOC collectively would be showing their degree of participation and the opinions of others. It seems to me any other title movement would be a duplication of the stars rating system, more or less. If you like them, give them 5 stars! That's the real testament.

Of course, I'd rather just give them my explicit compliments on a per-job basis - that is more continually rewarding I suspect than any one time title.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

And your last statement is wildly ironic - that the signpost of oligarchy and absolute monarchial or imperial power should somehow derive from the populist support.... ... that's funny....

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page237.asp

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> And your last statement is wildly ironic - that the signpost of oligarchy and absolute monarchial or imperial power should somehow derive from the populist support.... ... that's funny....

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page237.asp </font>[/QUOTE]That's a nomination for an award... and the award still comes from the Queen. It doesn't flow from the adulation of the masses. Besides, the whole irony has me still laughing, but I have a twisted sense of what is funny....

(I once walked by a store that said "Part Time Help Wanted" and burst out laughing. I got looks from my peers. When I explained that the Store was obviously recruiting employees who would be good productive workers some percentage of the time and utter impediments or vandals the rest of the time, since they only wanted "Part Time Help", the looks didn't get any better. As one friend said "I can see it now that you mention it, but only you would have seen it.")

ObTrav:
Do we think Strephon gives out many of his awards at the behest of the populace? Or is it handled mostly impersonally through the bureaucracy or is it mostly an ambitious game of noble politiking? or all of the above?

 

[Mythmere]

Do we think Strephon gives out many of his awards at the behest of the populace? Or is it handled mostly impersonally through the bureaucracy or is it mostly an ambitious game of noble politiking?

Therein the fatal flaw in your opposition to my obviously brilliant idea. Strephon doesn't run this message board. Hunter does.

I meant only participants, and I meant only nominations, not actually knighthoods, from the masses. SOC doesn't do it - it says nothing about the quality of the posts. Existing titles don't do it - they are only for commercial publication through QLI or serving as a moderator.

 

[TKalbfus]

ObTrav:
Do we think Strephon gives out many of his awards at the behest of the populace? Or is it handled mostly impersonally through the bureaucracy or is it mostly an ambitious game of noble politiking? or all of the above?

I would say that Barons would do most of the knighting. Counts appoint Barons, Dukes appoint Counts, Arch-Dukes Appoint Dukes, and the Emperor himself appoints Arch-Dukes.

Therein the fatal flaw in your opposition to my obviously brilliant idea. Strephon doesn't run this message board. Hunter does.

I meant only participants, and I meant only nominations, not actually knighthoods, from the masses. SOC doesn't do it - it says nothing about the quality of the posts. Existing titles don't do it - they are only for commercial publication through QLI or serving as a moderator.

Ahem! This is a game. I doubt the Queen would pass out knighthoods for contributions to the Traveller RPG. Anyone who writes letters to the Queen suggesting such a thing will probably be sent a standard form letter thanking you for writing and advising that your opinions will be given due consideration.

 

[Jame]

Nominations? I nominate myself

!!!

Really, I'd nominate knighting everyone who's written a Traveller book that hasn't been decanonized (but I'd include G:T writers as candidates for knighting as well). In terms of awards, I'd nominate anyone who's contributed something to Traveller fandom, for example the oddjobs and Landgrabs (but if these are purely CotI awards, they should be awarded to CotI members).

By this, a good number of us would be up for awards, notably Mythmere and (natch! ) myself.

As a final note, perhaps we should create the Trader Jim award - given only to those like Trader Jim!

 

[Traveller]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
ObTrav:
Do we think Strephon gives out many of his awards at the behest of the populace? Or is it handled mostly impersonally through the bureaucracy or is it mostly an ambitious game of noble politiking? or all of the above?

Ahem. I think I MIGHT have something to say about this!

Just kidding.

Imperial patents of nobility do come down from the Emperor, but if I'm not mistaken, the Moot itself has to approve the patent before it can be issued.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Strephon Alkhalikoi:
Imperial patents of nobility do come down from the Emperor, but if I'm not mistaken, the Moot itself has to approve the patent before it can be issued.

I said 'awards' because the article that I was referred to referred to awards. I didn't say Patents of Nobility. Plus, at the Knighthood level, I'm not sure that historically they have been given patents, at least not originally (was reading about this last night).

I think Jame made my point: A lot of people would be viable candidates.

And I'll stick to my original statement that the Stars Rating system DOES provide a measure of your opinion of someone's work in combination with SOC which gives an idea of the extent.

This whole discussion reminds me of Slashdot karma, karma-whoring, trolling, etc.

Again, my highest regards to Citizen Thrash and to Mr. Whipsnade and the other contributors. The beer is on me when we meet, no doubt. But I'll thank them in person or on a per-case basis as a title is given then just sits there. I want them to know on a submission by submission basis that I'm still reading and thinking about their work.

 

[Mythmere]

But Kaladorn, you can't give stars any more in the new site.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
But Kaladorn, you can't give stars any more in the new site.

Hmmm. I'd noticed that, but I assume that is temporary, as they kept the ratings. If you're getting rid of the mechanism to alot them, you'd better get rid of the data field and its display as otherwise you're just taunting new people. I thought (I followed most of the discussion of stars/no stars in the forum) that the conclusion was they'd be staying. I notice they are not currently an option so I am curious, I must admit.....

 

[Whipsnade]

Mythmere wrote:

"I know there's a whole system for giving people titles, and all, but I'd like to see some people knighted for specific stuff, too."


Gentlemen,

Although flattered (and embarrassed) by your kudos, I believe emphatically that I have done nothing deserving of a CotI knighthood. Please understand, this isn't some 'humbler than thou' stance on my part; I truly believe that the trifles I've shared with Our Hobby fade into insignificance when compared to the work of many, many, MANY others.

As an example in his original post, Mr. Mythmere mentions Mr. Thrash, as well he should. Mr. Thrash has collaborated on several GT books, has investigated structural strength with regards to ship sizes in a thoroughly professional manner, and has graced Our Hobby with many other materials. I've had the pleasure of a sneak peek at the Islands Subsectors materials he is working on and can say that it will astonish Our Hobby when it is published. Mr. Tharsh does deserve a knighthood, as do many others - myself NOT included.

Along with Mr. Thrash there are dozens of others who have sweated to produce materials and aids for Our Hobby, such as Mr. Jones-Low and the other authors of CotI's fine TA series. In the play aid arean, there is Andrew Moffatt-Vallance' standard setting HGS program, Mr. Ferris' extraordinary H&E program, and a whole host of chargens, spreadsheets, etc. that people have produced merely for the enjoyment of others. As for system support, Mr. Peter Gray and others at the TNE-List continue to release excellent TNE materials and designs for anyone to use. Among the many setting creators, Mr. Harold Hale gave us the awesomely detailed post-Viral 'Children of Earth'. Far Future mappers can be very proud of Mr. Clifford Linehan and his Zhodani Core Route, the late Bari Stafford produced a Rim Expedition, and both gentlemen then shared all those months and years of work with us. 'BErka', Mr. Jeff Zeitlin, and another host of computer-savvy people create and maintain amazing Traveller web sites. This list of extraordinary effort and accomplishment can go on and on.

When compared to the work and effort put forth by the people I have listed; and the many, many others I sadly had to leave out, my work is but a piffle. You would be shocked to learn just how little actual work went into the 'Wounded Colussus' timeline. I had a clutch of nearly ten-year-old notes, a rough outline, and a few hours to slap something together for the TML. I polished up the outline, attached paragraphs onto each table entry, and carved my slapdash effort into a few parts for posting. That's all I did and, when you re-read it, it is easy to see just how raw, poorly composed, and badly written the WoCo materials are.

Nothing - let me repeat that; NOTHING, I have shared with Our Hobby comes anywhere near the materials I've mentioned and many other materials I failed to mention. So a CotI knighthood is out of the question... for the present! With such examples before me - hell, with such examples before US! - we all cannot help but strive to create and share better materials. Perhaps, in the future, I will create something for Our Olde Game that can pay back in a small way all the gifts so many others have freely shared with me. I do know that I have most certainly not done so yet.

Addressing Mr. Barclay's (kaladorn) concern now; I agree with him about not inflicting a web-based popularity contest on Our Olde Game. The star ratings here at CotI are wretched enough without adding virtual potshards and groundlings to the mix. Knighthoods should be relatively rare, should reflect the long term production and sharing of Traveller materials, and should be granted after private deliberation by a self-selected few, much like MacArthur grants or Nobels.

If you enjoy a fellow Hobbyist's work and materials and wish to let it be known, simply write him privately or post a 'Thank You' at the appropriate fora. Im my opinion, a sentence or three in a personal note mean much more than a clutch of stars or a virtual knighthood.

To sum up my blather; Thank you for your suggesting me for knighthood. Your efforts mean far more to me than the knighthood actually would.


Sincerely,
Larsen E. Whipsnade

 

[Falkayn]

Well ... Sir Falkayn sounds nice, but I think that the current method whereby Hunter choses people is more than good enough. The starship design spreadsheet is nice and all, bit if I got a knighthood for it then I'd have to put some serious work into implementing all those suggestions people keep making to improve it!

I think the whole knighthood thing should be left as a virtual pat on the back and public recognition thing that comes from QuikLink, and therefore relates to contributions to their products. Now, one day that might include me, but it doesn't as yet.

But hey, thanks for the thought!

 

[kaladorn]

LEW, Falkayn:

Your attitudes are even more laudible than your contributions, which themselves are not marginal. I want to be exceptionally clear that my objection was to the problematic (IMO) method of alloting such a Knighthood, not with any lack of merits on the behalves of those cited.

Quite frankly, I think people who wade through gearhead spreadsheets (I've been working on a 3G to MT and CT spreadsheet), computer code (H&E, Universe, Galactic, among others), and people who make wonderful contributions like WoCo deserve many and frequent praisings. But I think they'd be (for the most part) just as happy with a few lines of e-mail praise, an offer of a libation of choice at the next convention, and with the knowledge that their product is being used or at least thought about by others.

And LEW, in the case of WoCo, as with many other types of contribution, it isn't always the length of time or effort involved - it is the novelty of the thought, the crystalization of something that has meaning to many other people, and the generalized utility of such a creation that approportions its value. The fact you may or may not have had some old notes, quickly whipped them into shape, and wrote them up is not particularly relevant to their value, which is largely extrinsic to yourself - being determined by how meaningful that work is to others.

Yes, it might not have taken long to produce, but I'm sure many other wonderful insights have arisen in a similarly short period, but their impact has been far reaching. I think WoCo gives a decent view of how things might have turned out differently and I think many, many people were looking for just such a work. You may have merely hit upon the common yearning, but in doing so, your work ascended from the merely pedestrian to the level of a sort of genius.

And for that, I write the few lines above as my way of saying thanks. There may yet be a LEW as an NPC in my universe, perhaps a distinguished professor of sociology and history (not the dreaded psycho(babble)history), and that shall be a further 'thank you', an odd but fitting form of immortality I hope for a wonderful contribution to our file of TUs.