Jumping like it's 1977

[BwapTED]

I've been re-reading the LBBs, both 1977 and 1981.


The list below includes both simple statements drawn straight from the unambiguous text, like ''charted space lanes exist'' and also some personal interpretations of rules that were either clarified or actually replaced in the 1981 version, like the way jump works or the minimum size possible for a starship.




• the process of making a jump takes about a week to accomplish, and involves pilot and navigational support and other preparations (nothing about a week spent in jump space) Book 2 p 1
• charted space lanes exist
Book 3 p. 2
• Jump cassettes, self-erasing
Book 2 p. 33
• no empty hex jumps, jumps are system to system (except possibly by misjump)
Book 2 p 1 and p. 4
• Starships can be built smaller than 100 tons, as custom hulls.
Performance calculated at 100 ton level on charts.
Book 2 p. 10 and p. 20
• Starships have to have a pilot/navigator in order to jump
Book 2 p 1 and p.1 16
• Jump-capable message torpedoes are possible
Book 2. p. 18



I reconcile the starship pilot/navigator requirement with (presumably unmanned) jump torpedoes by interpreting the torpedoes as TL 16 devices that use an advanced form of jump cassette/limited AI. This limited AI counts as a pilot, but doesn’t survive transit. It gets erased, like a jump cassette. It also cannot do much more than handle a jump, as it is highly specialized and not human equivalent in general intelligence.

At TL 17, it’s possible for a specially-made AI to act as the pilot in jump travel, making ‘’unmanned’’ starships possible. This type can survive jump transit.

 

[aramis]

Commercial starships usually make two trips per month, spending one week in
travel time and one week for transit to the jump point, landing and take-off and time
in port. In port, five to six days are allowed for the acquisition of cargo and passengers,
and for crew recreation.

That implies strongly a week in jump. Also on page 1.

 

[creativehum]

Book 2, p. 1, 1977:

Interstellar Travel: Worlds orbiting different stars are reached by interstellar travel, which uses the jump drive. Once a starship moves to more than 100 planetary diameters from all worlds, it may activate its jump drive and move to another star system. Jump drives transfer ships from one star system to another in about one week per jump..

[emphasis added]

I'm not seeing any ambiguity here: "Jump drives transfer ships from one star system to another in about one week per jump."

 

[Supplement Four]

Book 2, p. 1, 1977:


[emphasis added]

I'm not seeing any ambiguity here: "Jump drives transfer ships from one star system to another in about one week per jump."

That clearly says one week in jump to me.

 

[BwapTED]

On the very same page:

Actually making a jump takes about one week of elapsed time, which includes navigational and pilot support, and normal preparation as necessary.

If there is preparation, then surely it takes place before the jump?

And the pilot is doing things during the week, not just throwing a switch to engage jump drive.

So it appears to me.

I'm not saying it must be read as a week of work and preparation in real/normal space that culminates in a quick jump, just that it could as well be read that way as the ship leaps into jump space very quickly and then a week is spent doing all the preparatory stuff for reentry into normal space.

 

[BwapTED]

In contrast, the 1981 version omits "pilot and navigation support and other preparations, as necessary". And it uses the words ''in jump.''
That's all on page 4 (LBB 2 1981).




Seems to me I have caught an ambiguity, if perhaps not an actual shift in the rules.

The 1981 rules don't actually say ''in jump space'', at least not on page 4, but I agree that this is a sensible reading of ''in jump.''

When did ''jump space'' first get an explicit mention in Traveller? Starter Traveller? JTAS?

Approaching it as if I were buying this game in 1977, and had no knowledge of how later versions of Traveller would clarify and expand jump space and related stuff, it seems to me I might not have assumed that jump involved week-long trips through jump space, ending in a return to normal space.

More likely, I'd have read it as working like some jump drives do in some older sci fi, with complex preparations that had to be made before the vessel made a quick leap across vast distances. Interstellar teleportation. The week involves priming the jump drive, creating some exotic energy field, doing calculations, etc. Then ZAP! you jump.


Like some of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_drive

The article mentions Starman Jones. It's been ages, but I'm probably thinking of that. And maybe Citizen of the Galaxy had a similar jump drive?

Talking with my dad today, he remarked that spending a substantial period of subjective time in hyperspace seemed like something out of Space Viking. Wasn't there something in that about Otto Harkamann (spelling check?) reading history books, and another guy composing music, while in hyperspace?

 

[creativehum]

As for the ambiguity, have at it. I don't see it at all. And I already did a whole do-si-do on that "per-parsec cargo rate" thread... and I promised myself never to get sucked into anything like that again.

As I always say, people should be making the Traveller setting that intrigues and excites them. If you see something awesome in this reading you have found, make it so!


As for the story-based source of the technology... as is often the case one can look to the Dumarest books. This passage is from Book 4: Kalin, which goes into space travel more than the previous books. (There is, in fact, a hijacking attempt that goes bad.)

From a ship in space stars were the last thing anyone would expect to see. Not with the Erhaft field wrapping the cocoon of metal in its own private universe and allowing it to traverse the spaces between worlds at multi-light speeds. Stars could not be seen beyond that field.

Kalin, Tubb, E.C. The Dumarest eBook Collection #1 (Kindle Locations 7552-7554). Orion Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The chapters before the hijacking describe how Fast Drugs are used to make the passage of time traveling in the Erhaft field manageable (nothing to look at, trapped in the tin can during days upon days of travel.)

Slow drugs are brought into play for the high-jackers in combination with Fast drugs used on the crew in an effort to make them move so slowly they can't react in time to stop the high-jacking.

But I'm sure there are other references from other authors and tales as well!

 

[BwapTED]

As for the ambiguity, have at it. I don't see it at all. And I already did a whole do-si-do on that "per-parsec cargo rate" thread... and I promised myself never to get sucked into anything like that again.

As I always say, people should be making the Traveller setting that intrigues and excites them. If you see something awesome in this reading you have found, make it so!


As for the story-based source of the technology... as is often the case one can look to the Dumarest books. This passage is from Book 4: Kalin, which goes into space travel more than the previous books. (There is, in fact, a hijacking attempt that goes bad.)

The chapters before the hijacking describe how Fast Drugs are used to make the passage of time traveling in the Erhaft field manageable (nothing to look at, trapped in the tin can during days upon days of travel.)

Slow drugs are brought into play for the high-jackers in combination with Fast drugs used on the crew in an effort to make them move so slowly they can't react in time to stop the high-jacking.

But I'm sure there are other references as well!

Time for me to order some cheapo copies of Dumarest books.


But about the alternate jump drive reading, I'm not trying to convince anybody he's not doing it the right way. That would be silly and presumptuous. Anyway, the later rules make it much clearer.


I do think if I run an ATU-based Traveller game, I may well decide to read the LBB 1977 rules as meaning about a week of prep, priming, and support that culminates in a near-instantaneous transit to the next jump point. Preparation is followed by the accomplishment of the goal, the main action.


Because this could have significant impact on play and possibly on the setting, I don't think I'd try it in the OTU and I would definitely want to make certain that all my players clearly understood the rule.

''Whaddya mean we can't just jump out now and escape the space pirates? We've got fuel!"

 

[kilemall]

Time for me to order some cheapo copies of Dumarest books.


But about the alternate jump drive reading, I'm not trying to convince anybody he's not doing it the right way. That would be silly and presumptuous. Anyway, the later rules make it much clearer.


I do think if I run an ATU-based Traveller game, I may well decide to read the LBB 1977 rules as meaning about a week of prep, priming, and support that culminates in a near-instantaneous transit to the next jump point. Preparation is followed by the accomplishment of the goal, the main action.


Because this could have significant impact on play and possibly on the setting, I don't think I'd try it in the OTU and I would definitely want to make certain that all my players clearly understood the rule.

''Whaddya mean we can't just jump out now and escape the space pirates? We've got fuel!"

You could make it 1000D to do a safe jump, not 100D.

IMTU I have it at 100D and instantaneous normalspace, but a week is experienced on board, in other words as one gets closer to lightspeed time is experienced more slowly, FTL time is experienced more quickly.

 

[BwapTED]

You could make it 1000D to do a safe jump, not 100D.

IMTU I have it at 100D and instantaneous normalspace, but a week is experienced on board, in other words as one gets closer to lightspeed time is experienced more slowly, FTL time is experienced more quickly.

So a sort of time dilation, eh?

Cool.

 

[kilemall]

So a sort of time dilation, eh?

Cool.

Ya I did weird physics because I just can't stomach week-long jumpspace and the tickets/ship design/economics don't make sense without significant time cost.

Either way, game mechanics and effect dictate the handwavium.

 

[McPerth]

I've been re-reading the LBBs, both 1977 and 1981.

• Jump cassettes, self-erasing
Book 2 p. 33
• (...)
• Starships have to have a pilot/navigator in order to jump
Book 2 p 1 and p.1 16

Not having access to the 77 versión, just saying those two points seem contradictory to me. If there are jump casettes, then a navigator is not needed, as it may be substituted by them...

You could make it 1000D to do a safe jump, not 100D.

IMTU I have it at 100D and instantaneous normalspace, but a week is experienced on board, in other words as one gets closer to lightspeed time is experienced more slowly, FTL time is experienced more quickly.

Instantaneous jump (outside the ship, as, if I undertand you well for the crew a week passes) would seriously alter the setting, a messages no longer take a week per jump to reach target system.

This way, Capital and Regina would be just a few weeks apart (for communications) at most...

It also affects quite strongly strategy. See this thread for my oppinions about shorter duration jumps...

 

[BwapTED]

Generate program is the third component important to navigation. It can create a flight plan for you between two systems.
If you don't have generate, you can buy a jump cassette.
But what if there's no jump cassette for the two systems you have in mind, available for sale at a given starport?

In the 1977 rules systems off the charted space lanes aren't so easy to reach.

Some of this is in the programs section under 'generate' and some on page 2 under ''route determination."

Navigators can plot courses. They are also good at finding location, +1 to DM (from the skills section of Book 1) And note that page 1 specifies that "pilot and navigational" support are part of making a jump. Pilots double as navigators on smaller starships.
So jump cassettes don't simply replace navigators. And these are self-erasing, single use devices.

 

[kilemall]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Instantaneous jump (outside the ship, as, if I undertand you well for the crew a week passes) would seriously alter the setting, a messages no loner take a week per jump to reach target system.

This way, Capital and Regina would be just a few weeks apart (for communications) at most...

It also affects quite strongly strategy. See this thread for my oppinions about shorter duration jumps...[/FONT]

Agreed, anyone who monkeys with that is playing with setting fire.

Fortunately, I'm not OTU and have mitigating circumstances.

Jump is far more difficult in that the destination space has to have been surveyed and captured for the Generate program to avoid misjumps.

The Oort Cloud is a vast setting, making every system with one it's own volume equivalent to a sector's worth of civilized planets.

No polity is EVER going to keep that under control, and so pirates/outlawed orgs/dirty science are based Out There.

Coupled with the jump rule, there is a LOT of escape possible from the long arm of Space Authority.

My frontier is just 200 years after now, with jump being newer then that, and a sphere approximately 12 parsecs in size.

Earth's cultures and nations are still recognizable and so the 'quirky weird planet of the week with it's development in relative comms isolation' is not really going to be a thing anyway, most of the oddball culture stuff is out in The Cloud (an effect I want anyway, civilized worlds should feel like suburbia, Out There should be strange and exotic).

So telegram speed comms isn't going to have the same titanic ripple effect it would on a huge empire, and with most colonies being red dwarf outposts in the pop 4 range and established for less then 80 years, there just isn't a lot of episodic planets per se.

Tactically this allows for all sorts of 'jump traps' (with navigation for precision jumps being huge) and escapes (crew and ship patched up in their subjective week), highlighted by my scary closer then 100,000 km lethality rules.

Plenty of escape possible though since my jumps end at velocity 0 no matter the jump vee.

Merchant and wartime crews get a lot of pay effectively working 6+ weeks in 4, with cultural effects noted in my thread on that point.

There would be a greater efficiency in patrolling and coverage with comms and tacjumps, my answer to that is spacegoing nations would simply deploy fewer ships overall.

So yes, it has to be thought out before breaking the one rule Miller said not to.

 

[BwapTED]

OORT CLOUD PIRATES

Awwww, yeah!

 

[kilemall]

Generate program is the third component important to navigation. It can create a flight plan for you between two systems.
If you don't have generate, you can buy a jump cassette.
But what if there's no jump cassette for the two systems you have in mind, available for sale at a given starport?

In the 1977 rules systems off the charted space lanes aren't so easy to reach.

Some of this is in the programs section under 'generate' and some on page 2 under ''route determination."

Navigators can plot courses. They are also good at finding location, +1 to DM (from the skills section of Book 1) And note that page 1 specifies that "pilot and navigational" support are part of making a jump. Pilots double as navigators on smaller starships.
So jump cassettes don't simply replace navigators. And these are self-erasing, single use devices.

I think the original game had an intended progression for the players.

Start out in one system, barely able to make it to the next one, having to buy the single use jump tapes.

If they stick to the main lanes they can skip buying Generate but they will be hamstrung to civilized space, AND likely have to spend on armament given the 1977 pirate encounters were skewed to A/B starports on trade routes.

So, win big on speculation, earn the extra credits, buy Generate, open up the C/D/E worlds, win more speculation and arm up to be able to deal with the A/B pirates.

 

[creativehum]

I think the original game had an intended progression for the players.

Start out in one system, barely able to make it to the next one, having to buy the single use jump tapes.

If they stick to the main lanes they can skip buying Generate but they will be hamstrung to civilized space, AND likely have to spend on armament given the 1977 pirate encounters were skewed to A/B starports on trade routes.

So, win big on speculation, earn the extra credits, buy Generate, open up the C/D/E worlds, win more speculation and arm up to be able to deal with the A/B pirates.

That's how I see it as well.

This outline (along with the limits on the Jump that ships that can be earned by the PCs during mustering out) helped limit the "They can go anywhere! What do I do?" panic that might hit Referees when starting out with a new campaign.

 

[creativehum]

Fortunately, I'm not OTU and have mitigating circumstances....

I haven't read the thread, but this sounds awesome...

 

[whulorigan]

Time for me to order some cheapo copies of Dumarest books.

You can get all 33 in Kindle format.

I do think if I run an ATU-based Traveller game, I may well decide to read the LBB 1977 rules as meaning about a week of prep, priming, and support that culminates in a near-instantaneous transit to the next jump point. Preparation is followed by the accomplishment of the goal, the main action.

The system above sounds closest to how hyperspace worked in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

 

[mike wightman]

Why wait until you are in space to do the calculations?

While you are on the ground looking for passengers and cargo you can begin the calculations.

Continue the calculations while enroute to the 100D limit and you suddenly don't have a fortnightly jump routine anymore...