Inviting the Aslans in

[rancke]

During a recent private discussion with Daryen, I had an idea about the controversial Aslan invasions of the Domain of Deneb during the Rebellion. (Even after 15 years of discussion I can still get a new idea once in a while -- amazing ).

It's not a cure-all. There are lots of the inconsistent stuff that it doesn't explain (like the various invasions of high-population worlds). At most, it's a nudge in the right direction. But at least it's in the right direction.

It's this: Norris wants ihatei settlers. A certain type of ihatei settlers, that is.

Norris is facing a long, drawn-out war against the Zhodani (actually, he's facing a swift defeat, but he has to plan for the possibility that the Zhodani mess up and his side gets lucky over and over again). If he does manage to stall the attack, he'll need all the reinforcements he can get. Aslans are loyal and dependable (as long as you keep an eye on them and don't tempt them too far). They are industrious and pay their taxes. They have a tradition of military service. Some of them bring along their own cruisers (obsolescent cruisers, true, but they'll be useful for fending of other ihatei

).

So Norris' deputy (Tranathief?) is going to have secret orders to help the right kind of ihatei set up shop. The kind that is willing to swear fealthy to the Imperium and is numerous enough and well enough equipped to be an asset right off the bat. Take, for instance, a fleet composed of three of those typical ihatei squadrons described in Rebellion Sourcebook. Plunk them down somewhere and you'll have 60,000 model citizens. They're carrying 90,000 dT of colony equipment, which means that they can be productive in very short order. And they're accompanied by 6 light cruisers. Not bad, provided you can get them.

However, Norris can't allow the member worlds to know the truth, because the land he is planning to give away doesn't actually belong to him, it belongs to the border worlds. And for five centuries the border worlds have had a policy of keeping the Aslans at bay. So he has to pretend that these new citizens invaded on their own initiative.

Of course, it won't just be the desirable (friendly) ihatei that Norris' invitation will attract. Others will show up without an invitation. Most of them will be fended off, but there will be some that manages to grab some land and hold on to it. The various canonical atrocities will be due to this category.


Hans

 

[daryen]

Add in a couple major clans who are trying to use this as a way to coopt Imperial worlds. (Again, lo-pop worlds. I just can't see any of the Aslan bothering much with hi-pop worlds.)

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the worlds "conquered" by the Aslan were not actually populated by the Aslan. They simply ruled the worlds, mostly with a veyr light hand. (For example, look at Senlis. They were a border worlds with their own pocket empire and a fairly small population. Even after the Aslan "took over", the population and government didn't change. This was by far the most common situation.)

The other cool thing about this is that it catches Norris in another "big lie". Norris, despite being a basically honorable guy, found himself making these big honking lies to make things work out. From a literary perspective, I really like that contrast in his character.

 

[jatay3]

A lot of planets in the marches are not intensely inhabited. There is more room for Aslan then is made out and in some cases there are considerable advantages in an Aslan settlement.

Also, Ihaiti Fleets directed to the flank of the Imperium rather then directly inward, can distract local powers like the Avalar, creating more room for expansion. Their colonies would also act as forward bases. The Imperium badly needs a place to send the discontented. It doesn't really need more territory under it's direct rule. However lack of someplace else to go will inevitably cause problems. With an opening of unknown space, discontents can go off and set up colonies patterned to their desires, some of which will in fact become economic and political allies of the Imperium.

 

[abomination]

I think a lot of the problems can be solved by interpreting the Aslan deisre for "Land" as a desire for "Territory". There is absolutely no requirement for that territory to be Rural. After all Edo in feudal Japan was one of the largest cities on Earth.

An urban Aslan might well consider a city block as his "turf", and have the status of having a couple of thousand of beings in his fief is every bit the equal of an equivalent clan with a traditional vast rural estate on some back water world.

The up shot is you get a group of traditional patriachal families, moving to a hi pop world & using their power to, at first indirectly (think Mafia), then directly (modern Mexico & Columbia are headig this way) influence Government & law enforcement. In time they become the defacto & ultimately the actual government. At which point the world turns it's back on the Imperium and start to look to the Heirate. The non Aslan population are effectively disenfranchised, bending their knee to their feudal overlords.

In the long term this is at least a threat to Norris as the Vargr.

 

[rancke]

I think a lot of the problems can be solved by interpreting the Aslan deisre for "Land" as a desire for "Territory". There is absolutely no requirement for that territory to be Rural. After all Edo in feudal Japan was one of the largest cities on Earth.

Whether the Aslan land hunger is actually genetic or just cultural, I think it's pretty well established that it primarily concerns real land. However, it's obviously possibly to sublimate those desires (After all, 72% of Aslan males (the non-nobles) live their lives with no holdings at all). So some other forms of holdings will be acceptable substitutes (Note that, for example, business holdings are not acceptable).

The up shot is you get a group of traditional patriachal families, moving to a hi pop world & using their power to, at first indirectly (think Mafia), then directly (modern Mexico & Columbia are heading this way) influence Government & law enforcement. In time they become the defacto & ultimately the actual government.

The thing is, Aslans began moving into the Marches somewhere around the late 6th Century (Darrians give land to Aslans in 585). And then they stalled. 500 years later they're still only half-way up the Trojan Reach. They haven't even managed to infiltrate the Buffer Zone, the band of independent worlds lying between the Hierate and the Imperial borders. If your theory of political takeovers was sound, the Aslans should be infiltrating Vargr worlds by now.

What difference does it make in a political scenario like the one you posit that the world is down to its system defenses and all it's starships are off defending against the Zhodani? None.

I could come up with various surmises why Aslans can't just move to a high-population world and take over, but I won't bother, because it's evident that they haven't done so in the 500 years they've had to try it out. So whatever the reasons, they can't do it.

At which point the world turns it's back on the Imperium and start to look to the Hierate. The non Aslan population are effectively disenfranchised, bending their knee to their feudal overlords.

And even if such a takeover was possible, this is, of course, the point where the Imperium decides that it don't want to lose the taxes that world pays and sends a fleet to oust the secessionist government and install a new, loyal government. Or, of course, extract oaths of fealthy from the new Aslan leaders. But one way or the other the Imperium is going to get its taxes. Its high-population members are the mainstay of Imperial power.

In the long term this is at least a threat to Norris as the Vargr.

Well, the Vargr aren't a real threat either, but that's a different discussion. The root cause is the same, though: Both Aslans and Vargr are constitutionally prone to balkanization.


Hans

 

[jatay3]

I could come up with various surmises why Aslans can't just move to a high-population world and take over, but I won't bother, because it's evident that they haven't done so in the 500 years they've had to try it out. So whatever the reasons, they can't do it.




Hans

Because Aslan, despite their reputation are not really all that much better then humaniti at warfare and if anything they are not as good because humans are better at the number-crunching side of war. Also, because it's not really possible to transport enough Aslan at once to maintain the possibility of conquering high-pop worlds. Also because high-pop worlds are not attractive because the Aslan want space, and even if they conquered those worlds, space could only be gotten by removing the locals. Most clans really don't have the Genghis Khan mindset. Whereas low pop worlds have enough space and it is often possible to live in amicable relation with the Ihaiti especially if the Aslan provide protection against other neighbors.

 

[Dragoner]

IMTU (imperium 1133) a lot of Aslan become trapped or scattered in the marches or trojan reach after the Imperium comes back. The hierate itself pulls a 3rd axis 4th ally romania type switch sides (as ruh roh, when a big Imperial fleet shows up). But aslan that either had their ships confiscated or wound up pows and then unceremoniously dumped out of camps to make room for zho's, then just had to find a way to survive in the post-occupation zone that's filled with Imperials, zho refugees, vargr and solomani transportees as well as the various and sundry denziens of the marches pre-outworld coalition occupation.

it makes for a good rpg mix, pc's can be anything they want.

 

[kafka47]

Norris wants the Aslan in but only the clans that are the most Imperial. I take my cue from Gateway to Destiny when I say that most of the children of immigrants want to their children to become Imperialized. So, on the frontier there are extensive frontier patrols that allow Aslan immigrants but they must take an Oath to serve the Emperor rather than Clan Ko. The Imperium would then through aegis of the Ministry of Colonization break up clans and families and send them to their respective home worlds. Citizenship would depend upon the receiving world, although, the Ministry of Immigration would provide each world with some loose and unenforceable (unless Imperial High Laws are broken) guidelines.

 

[rancke]

Norris wants the Aslan in but only the clans that are the most Imperial. I take my cue from Gateway to Destiny when I say that most of the children of immigrants want to their children to become Imperialized.

An Aslan ihatei admiral wants land. If he has to swear fealthy to another overlord, like the Emperor, he'll do it. But I don't think he nor his subjects will want to become any more like the barbarians than absolutely ncessary.

So, on the frontier there are extensive frontier patrols that allow Aslan immigrants but they must take an Oath to serve the Emperor rather than Clan Ko. The Imperium would then through aegis of the Ministry of Colonization break up clans and families and send them to their respective home worlds.

Two problems there. I've already pointed out the first one: that the member worlds on the border has been strongly anti-Aslan for five centuries. Norris can't publicly do anything to help new Aslan settlers, because that would alienate all the border worlds. The second is that no Aslan admiral will accept having his clan broken up under him. That would be a deal-breaker.


Hans

 

[BwapTED]

Don't pay the Dane-geld, Norris, for you'll never be rid of the Danes if you do!

:0

 

[daryen]

Holy Resurrection Batman!

Anyway, the whole ihatei thing in the Rebellion was a total foobar, and whatever you have to do to make it work is gonna be pretty hokey. Not much you can do about that. Hans' idea is at least as good as any idea I ever saw and better than most. When I had the chance to figure it out, I used lots of avenues that all combined together. (I took at as a war of opportunity from belligerent Aslan clans and a defection of convenience by the Duke of Tobia.)

But, hey, at this point it doesn't matter what reason you use. Pick something that makes sense to you and run with it!

 

[jatay3]

An Aslan ihatei admiral wants land. If he has to swear fealthy to another overlord, like the Emperor, he'll do it. But I don't think he nor his subjects will want to become any more like the barbarians than absolutely ncessary.


Two problems there. I've already pointed out the first one: that the member worlds on the border has been strongly anti-Aslan for five centuries. Norris can't publicly do anything to help new Aslan settlers, because that would alienate all the border worlds. The second is that no Aslan admiral will accept having his clan broken up under him. That would be a deal-breaker.


Hans

The first problem is not really a problem; the Imperium is theoretically based on local autonomy. The main problem is the locals. Logically that shouldn't be a problem; looking at Behind the Claw, there are a lot of low pop worlds that have plenty of room, and Ihaiti, once settled, will often change from a threat to an asset. In Jewell subsector for instance they will become military colonists; Archduke Norris barely even has to make that part of the agreement as they will defend the Imperium by defending their new homes. Worlds with a low CR will get a cheap constabulary service; while Aslan justice is likely to be rather "abrupt", the tribal cohesiveness will make sure they get their way over lawless other colonists and keep order among themselves. And of course once settled the Ihaiti become an obstacle to further incursions by other Ihaiti. The main disadvantage is local prejudice against Aslan.

The Ihaiti are a difficulty, but they don't always have to be a threat and often can be an asset.

 

[jatay3]

Don't pay the Dane-geld, Norris, for you'll never be rid of the Danes if you do!

:0

That assumes that it is always a zero-sum game. There are plenty of ways to negotiate with incomers without losing reputation for the Imperium in Aslan eyes. I have given some examples. It is not always in the Imperium's interest to "be rid" of Aslan and often in it's interest to have some. Ihaiti are potentially worthy citizens. That thing about all male aslan being warriors is awkward because the Imperium theoretically wants there to be peacetime sometime. However the Spinward Marches are a nasty place at best and even if that were not the case, Aslan can be useful providing Aggressor teams for Imperial forces. They could be settled near naval and military bases and provide the opposition for wargaming sessions. Aslan would probably consider that to be quite honorable employment.

The Imperium is capable of absorbing a lot of Aslan. If nothing else, they can terraform some of the outer worlds. That can't be more expensive then warfare, not least because the Aslan will be providing a lot of the labor themselves.

 

[rancke]

Two problems there. I've already pointed out the first one: that the member worlds on the border has been strongly anti-Aslan for five centuries. Norris can't publicly do anything to help new Aslan settlers, because that would alienate all the border worlds. The second is that no Aslan admiral will accept having his clan broken up under him. That would be a deal-breaker.

The first problem is not really a problem; the Imperium is theoretically based on local autonomy. The main problem is the locals. Logically that shouldn't be a problem; looking at Behind the Claw, there are a lot of low pop worlds that have plenty of room, and Ihaiti, once settled, will often change from a threat to an asset.

I disagree. The populations of every border world, including high-population worlds like Tobia and Gazulin, will be upset if the Aslans are let in anywhere. Think of how the US would have reacted to Soviet settlers (Commies!) in Mexico. Or in Argentina for that matter.

In Jewell subsector for instance they will become military colonists; Archduke Norris barely even has to make that part of the agreement as they will defend the Imperium by defending their new homes. Worlds with a low CR will get a cheap constabulary service; while Aslan justice is likely to be rather "abrupt", the tribal cohesiveness will make sure they get their way over lawless other colonists and keep order among themselves. And of course once settled the Ihaiti become an obstacle to further incursions by other Ihaiti. The main disadvantage is local prejudice against Aslan.

Yes, but I'm trying to keep the retcons down to a minimum and to use as much of the MT material as possible. That means putting whatever Aslans do make it across the border rimwards of the border indicated on the maps as the coreward limit of Aslan influence.

The Ihaiti are a difficulty, but they don't always have to be a threat and often can be an asset.

Well, yes, that's the rationale for my proposal of Norris secretly colluding in getting some of them settled in his domain.


Hans

 

[jatay3]

I disagree. The populations of every border world, including high-population worlds like Tobia and Gazulin, will be upset if the Aslans are let in anywhere. Think of how the US would have reacted to Soviet settlers (Commies!) in Mexico. Or in Argentina for that matter.





Hans

You're right and in fact I miswrote. The locals reaction would be a problem. The Clan's insistance on not fully assimilating wouldn't, given Imperial ideology.

 

[jatay3]

Yes, but I'm trying to keep the retcons down to a minimum and to use as much of the MT material as possible. That means putting whatever Aslans do make it across the border rimwards of the border indicated on the maps as the coreward limit of Aslan influence.





Hans

Not an implausible retcon. They do not have to reach Jewel subsector themselves. They can reach the border of the Imperium, and be told that the Archduke has land for them-which by curious chance is right opposite the Zho's in the bloodiest part of the Spinward Marches.

 

[rancke]

Not an implausible retcon. They do not have to reach Jewel subsector themselves. They can reach the border of the Imperium, and be told that the Archduke has land for them-which by curious chance is right opposite the Zho's in the bloodiest part of the Spinward Marches.

Not implausible at all. 'Why not settle Aslans on the Vargr border?' suggestions have been around for decades. But canon doesn't mention Aslans in the coreward Marches.

Canon explicitly state that the Aslans muscled their way 10 to 20 parsecs into Imperial space. The problem with that is that common sense says that the ihatei wouldn't have the strength to do so, that the big clans would be too busy defending their core territories against their neighbors to send fleets 20+ parsecs away to help their ihatei, and that if the Aslans somehow managed to threaten Norris' industrial support, he'd have to risk weakening his defense against the Zhodani in order to protect the worlds that maintain his fleets. (Though he'd probably do it by redirecting some of the plethora of recommisioned and newly built ships his 34 subsectors would be churning out as soon as he went on a war footing rather than weakening his armada in Vilis and Jewell).

So I'm trying to come up with an alternate explanation that still has the Aslans get into the regions they canonically got into but has it happen in a way that isn't so starkly incredible. Getting them to places canon doesn't say they got to is not on my agenda.


Hans

 

[Uxi]

Canon explicitly state that the Aslans muscled their way 10 to 20 parsecs into Imperial space. The problem with that is that common sense says that the ihatei wouldn't have the strength to do so, that the big clans would be too busy defending their core territories against their neighbors to send fleets 20+ parsecs away to help their ihatei,

I've always had it that there were a couple combined blocs/alliances of Tlkukhu clans giving overt support. Officially, it was "ihatei" but it was in reality a de facto invasion of major clans capitalizing on the chaos in the Imperium, both to settle old scores and/or otherwise combine their agendas. Telling the public it's ihatei keeps the idea of formal war off the table and it's more of police actions to contain it.

Definitely not a bad idea for Norris to also use the situation to his advantage, as well, especially if he's rightfully more concerned about what the Zhodani might do.

 

[McPerth]

I think a lot of the problems can be solved by interpreting the Aslan deisre for "Land" as a desire for "Territory". There is absolutely no requirement for that territory to be Rural. After all Edo in feudal Japan was one of the largest cities on Earth.

An urban Aslan might well consider a city block as his "turf", and have the status of having a couple of thousand of beings in his fief is every bit the equal of an equivalent clan with a traditional vast rural estate on some back water world.

The up shot is you get a group of traditional patriachal families, moving to a hi pop world & using their power to, at first indirectly (think Mafia), then directly (modern Mexico & Columbia are headig this way) influence Government & law enforcement. In time they become the defacto & ultimately the actual government. At which point the world turns it's back on the Imperium and start to look to the Heirate. The non Aslan population are effectively disenfranchised, bending their knee to their feudal overlords.

In the long term this is at least a threat to Norris as the Vargr.

Well, we have the precedent of de Darrians inviting Aslan to colonize part of their territory in excahng for military service, and that's not the way their history has taken.

I guess the Aslan can be depended on, as Darrians have been doing for some centuries, if they are accepted and treated as equals (at least).

The thing is, Aslans began moving into the Marches somewhere around the late 6th Century (Darrians give land to Aslans in 585). And then they stalled. 500 years later they're still only half-way up the Trojan Reach. They haven't even managed to infiltrate the Buffer Zone, the band of independent worlds lying between the Hierate and the Imperial borders. If your theory of political takeovers was sound, the Aslans should be infiltrating Vargr worlds by now.

I may well be wrong, but I've always understood that the Aslan have accepted (eithre officially or as a kind of consensus) that the peace of Ftaharl also applied to the Aslan/Imperial border behind the claw. That's, as I see it the reason they've not tried to conquer the buffer zone in those past 500 years.

 

[jatay3]

Aslan don't have to be treated as equals AS SUCH as they regard vassalage as an honorable state and a reasonable demand from the host state. They do have to be treated in a dignified manner though.