Interstellar Banking

[R_Kane]

OK, this may be in some past incarnation of Traveller or in the new T20 book, but since I don't have the latter yet, and I haven't memorized the former...

How is banking handled interstellarly when updates between planetary branches would be restricted to updates by courier ships (or some such) with weeks or months between updates?

Do people have to withdraw all their money when they travel to have access to it? Only having access to it when they are on the planet (or in the system)where they originally deposited the money?

Do owners of an account in a bank that has many branches in many systems carry a card (or other data storage) that has all their current transactions and blanaces, from branch to branch?

Do the banks send courier ships on a continual circuit from branch to branch updating accounts from each branch's data, and use insurance to offset any overdrafts etc that occur?

Are there any big interstellar banks that cover huge expanses? or only smaller versions say covering systems within a 4 or 5 parsec diameter?

OK, I guess that's it for now. I personally am leaning toward the "carrying an uber-ATM card" option. Of course there will be safeguards against counterfieting (sp?), but as we all know, any countermeasures can be countered themsleves...possibly leading to embarassing moments for the characters.

I welcome any comments/suggestions.

-Roger

 

[TheColonel]

That's a very good question. My hypothosis would be that a traveller would have to carry any funds he/she/it would need form system to system. I'm sure in a high tech sector there would be more allowances for credit. Many interesting senarios come up with your questions. Banks would want to keep your funds with them for as long as possible. The intersteller traveller would be a small number of their customer base but probably a wealthy minority. So perhaps they would issue traveller's checks. They would be honored on the system you travel to. Well, because of the travel time, the bank has two weeks for interest to gain on that money.

another possibility, is small scale trading. Let's say that you want to travel to another system that is tech poor/natural recourse rich. You tell your bank that you want funds from your account for the trip. Well, they offer you a discount on your passage if you take you money in traveller's checks. They take your $, convert it to goods, ship it with you and have the "local" branch give you equivilent local currancy. They sell those goods and pocket the profits. The opposite would be done on your return trip. You go to the bank to convert what you have left back to traveller's checks. The bank converts it to valuable ore and sends it with you. Apon arrival, the process goes all over again. Perhaps this idea might help explain the large amount of traders that alos carry passangers.

 

[Father Fletch]

How is banking handled interstellarly when updates between planetary branches would be restricted to updates by courier ships (or some such) with weeks or months between updates?

The actual rate of update on data between planets along a main would be more likely on the level of once a day if not hourly. When the volume of trade going through a system like Glisten or Capital is considered there are literally hundreds if not thousands of ships arriving daily. This means that those coming in with either mail contracts or by x-boat will have the latest downloads from neighboring systems and subsectors. The large megacorps, which also likely own all the banks of note, would own courier fleets that would be in constant use.
You need to consider that commodity and stock markets were in use in Western Europe during the 18th century. Even the Romans engaged in speculative trade that might take months to get news of possible returns.
IMTU the major systems would get at least one update per day from each Class A and B port within up to 4 Jumps. The largest financial markets (Vland, Terra, Capital, Deneb, Vega, Daibei, etc. would find it cost effective to have fleets of J6 couriers meaning that they would have information from as far out as J6. In fact there are probably Free Traders in the core sectors who have no cargo bays, just rack upon rack of data banks, and they standby to do last minute transfers of sensitive data, for a price. They probably do quite well. There could even be free traders that make a living shipping legal and financial documents between major worlds.

Do people have to withdraw all their money when they travel to have access to it? Only having access to it when they are on the planet (or in the system)where they originally deposited the money?

Most likely there would be an account with a major bank in the system where the ship was commissioned and financed out of. Payments wend their way back to the bank through the x-boat network. That major bank would likely issue a letter of credit (likely in the form of the Uber-ATM you discuss) that characters could draw upon when they come to a system that would honor the card.

Do owners of an account in a bank that has many branches in many systems carry a card (or other data storage) that has all their current transactions and balances, from branch to branch?

There was a card like that discussed in a JTAS article. It had a chip implanted into it that kept track of all transactions and the character could draw upon the balance listed within. I would say that would work for amounts below a certain threshold, say Cr.5000, but for larger amounts it would require the verification facilities available at a class A or B Starport. The IISS and IN would likely have the necessary verification equipment as well.

Do the banks send courier ships on a continual circuit from branch to branch updating accounts from each branch's data, and use insurance to offset any overdrafts etc that occur?

YES!!

Are there any big interstellar banks that cover huge expanses? or only smaller versions say covering systems within a 4 or 5 parsec diameter?

Probably. The megacorp Hortalez et Cie is, IIRC, almost a purely financial corporation. There is also a Villani Megacorp, Zariinkariush, which handles large financial transactions. The other megacorps probably have to own lesser banking entities within various subsectors just to handle things like purchasing and payroll. Tukera lines and all of its subsidiaries would have an important role to play considering how much traffic they handle. IIRC a Megacorp write-up of Tukera in both the Traveller Adventure, Library Data and in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia all discuss the fact that Tukera makes most of its money on speculation, not straight cargo shipping. This means that they are major players in the goods and commodities markets. This means that they also benefit from up-to-the-minute (or hour or day) financial data. This would as a side effect include the routine transmission of transactions, debits, deposits and withdrawals.
Perhaps this belongs on an Econ board, but I wonder if the Speed of current banking and financial data has only accelerated the pace and volume of trade and wealth (I know a vague concept) on this planet, but NOT the importance. The Knights Templar, Acciaiuoli, Bardi, Medici and Peruzzi all likely were as good a banker as the titans of wealth today. They were just limited by the size of the accessible markets and the speed of communication in their time.

 

[TheColonel]

Father Fletch, I think you are wrong on one account (bad pun

). Even if there were daily runs between systems, the data transported would still be a week old. In the end it may not matter because the data stream would be continuos but, some may be uncomfortable with the time lag. So let's say I was looking for help on a project. If investors from another system wanted to take part, I would have to wait a minimum of two weeks to hear a response to a question or contract dispute.

 

[Father Fletch]

Absolutely true Sir, and it WOULD make a difference. This reinforces the "you're the guy on the ground, with the assets. You have to make the call." aspect of distributed decision making and leadership. Most high level financial decisions would be of the long-term trend/forecasting variety.
Though, the advantage of having a few fast J6 couriers at main hub systems would skew an advantage to the big boys.
How many Naval Couriers thought they were carrying vital orders when they were actually carrying stock market reports and orders for brokers from a noble "stuck" on the front lines?
This also shows how maybe the small trader with a hot deal is just the first innovator who recognizes a hot trend. The first Far Trader into a system that has just been introduced to Cabbage Patch Dolls or Beanie Babies or what have you and is able to off load his batch of dolls has made his payment for the month. Sure the big boys will move in and regularize shipments and then everyone and his little sister will have one, but the first couple of guys in will be the winners.
"Always be two jumps ahead of the big boys or your just shipping their s**t"
"Pappy" Fletch, Cap’n and Owner aboard of Imperial Mail Auxiliary, Sang-Froid, registered out of Junidy/Aramis.

 

[Bruce]

Witht eh distances and time needed to travel inbetween systems. You need to look at it more along the lines of the old west or in medieval times.

The gold is the power. You would need to actually TRANSFER the gold fromplace to place, ie the money.

So things are VERY localized and autonomous.

Just like how system governors and sub-sector governors are.

There would be a transfer of informaion abck and forth, justlike in the old west along telegraph lines etc, but it just takes longer.

So, when an establishment says, takes your credit stic and siphons off the credits for your purchase, they are assuming alot of trust.

That is why the credit is still in use, you can carry it. And in fact, i would see that the most SECRET and highly protected cargos would be the credits themselves, say a free trader wtih tons of credits in cargo escorted by the navy..because that's the lifeblood of the Imperium...trade.

just some random thoughts...
Not anywhere near official in ANY capacity...

Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain

 

[Father Fletch]

To risk repeating myself

The need for travelling money has always been with us. From the copper lumps that the Iceman of Austria/Italy carried almost 5000 years ago to the coils of silver and gold found in Viking treasure hordes (snipped of sections as they went) to the rings and jewelry of the middle ages there has been a need for portable wealth. Currently in the USA there are families of Vietnamese immigrants who still keep large amounts of gold in the family home. Just in case they need to pack up and move quickly. Nothing like 20 oz of bullion to get you passage out of a bad situation.
So gold, (or lanthanum, or Uranium chips, or silicon chips, or TL12 antibiotics) will still have a place in the Traveller universe. As stated here, earlier in the topic, on high tech worlds, with stable economies, there are electronic asset transfer systems in place to handle paychecks and groceries. Ships would likely have letters of credit, drawn on Hortalez et Cie or Instellarms or any other sector or Imperium wide agency. (Adventure Idea: Characters come across a Navy Bearer Bond worth many many credits, but they can only redeem it at the nearest Depot due to its age. They have to protect it and carry it across the parsecs, adventures along the way. Humorous Irony being that they have this great wealth but their actual cash is so low they have to work odd jobs just to collect the monies.)
Part of the fun and little details that could make a game great would be making the characters look up in the library data what the most popular item of exchange on the next planet in would be. This could sort of be like the Trader or Broker skill where the future value of the cargo can be somewhat predicted, but it would be a more stable commodity. Like "Onesium is a low tech world and gold, silver and jewels do well. Twosium is a high tech world with iron poor soil so iron coins are popular. Threesium is a desert world so bring water. Foursium has an early TL 7 technology so bring Zero G manufactured Silicon Chips set to IMPNAVSPEC 12-b and you can get a hotel room and a meal for the night."
This is something the referee can make up randomly, base on the planet info, UWP, Tarot cards, what have you. IT would add color and be in keeping with being paid in "Credits"
Two forms of credit or actual cash money that would be popular in the Imperium: MegaCorp Chits, useable in any nearby MegaCorp chain store at full listed face value; IISS Mail vouchers, good for sending mail any where in the Imperium at posted rates. People would be able to use those as a standard against which to buy and sell goods. Indeed the IISS mail vouchers might just BE Imperial Credits. It is one of the only universal standards within Traveller that is consistent and Imperium wide. It even extends into the extra-Imperial regions. Since X-Boats are the most reliable form of business communications, they would be sought out everywhere. The Imperium could even have the job of printing Credits assigned to the IISS. There is a job for your Detached Duty scouts! "You have been reactivated to take this shipment of Credits to BFE. By the way every con artist and corsair in the surrounding 3 subsectors has somehow found out about this shipment. Good Luck!" Hilarity ensues.

 

[Rodina]

I think an individual traveller who was travelling a safe route - say from Mora to Regina - would have to pay for personal overdraft insurance in order to access their accounts in front of the informational wave front. I think you would indicate your proposed itinerary and have a letter of credit drawn up and secured against your account.

You would pay interest on all withdrawls on that letter of credit, but as the banking information caught up with the local branch, those would be paid off and the interest (and the actual withdrawls) debited form your account.

Now, if you are a travelling man, those fees will be costly after a while - it's probably 6 weeks each way between Regina and Rhylanor at J-3 (I don't have a map handy) - and you don't want to pay 12 weeks interest on every dollar of your own you take out. So, instead, you'd have a few bank accounts with a real location along your route.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
Absolutely true Sir, and it WOULD make a difference. This reinforces the "you're the guy on the ground, with the assets. You have to make the call." aspect of distributed decision making and leadership. Most high level financial decisions would be of the long-term trend/forecasting variety.
Though, the advantage of having a few fast J6 couriers at main hub systems would skew an advantage to the big boys.
How many Naval Couriers thought they were carrying vital orders when they were actually carrying stock market reports and orders for brokers from a noble "stuck" on the front lines?
This also shows how maybe the small trader with a hot deal is just the first innovator who recognizes a hot trend. The first Far Trader into a system that has just been introduced to Cabbage Patch Dolls or Beanie Babies or what have you and is able to off load his batch of dolls has made his payment for the month. Sure the big boys will move in and regularize shipments and then everyone and his little sister will have one, but the first couple of guys in will be the winners.
"Always be two jumps ahead of the big boys or your just shipping their s**t"
"Pappy" Fletch, Cap’n and Owner aboard of Imperial Mail Auxiliary, Sang-Froid, registered out of Junidy/Aramis.

_____________________________________________
CJ Cherryh (authoress) makes good use of the information checking speculative data from INSATS when coming into system in her Merchanter's Luck, & Pride of Chanur series.
Meaning, check the local data on the markets, see whats hot, whats not as you enter system (and prepare to sell what you have when you hit orbital station/ dirtside. You got the time, coasting in from Jump/ decellerating, might as well use it wisely.

"Yah snooze, yah lose," Angus McCall, merchanter, SS "Breaker Morant", VILIS/Vilis/Spinward Marches

 

[trader jim]

....just a random thought or question.....earlier in this forum/board...we discussed the gold question....got me thinking....commodites markets....what do we have that inhabinets of another world would truly want from us...to buy or trade?????....after all they are self sufficient...they were self sufficiant before and after space flight....therefor...they probably dont truly need much or even anything from us....
EXCEPT.....WATER....WATER as a medium of exchange??...think about it....

dont know where i am going with this.....just thinking of the future.....

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by trader jim:
....just a random thought or question.....earlier in this forum/board...we discussed the gold question....got me thinking....commodites markets....what do we have that inhabinets of another world would truly want from us...to buy or trade?????....after all they are self sufficient...they were self sufficiant before and after space flight....therefor...they probably dont truly need much or even anything from us....
EXCEPT.....WATER....WATER as a medium of exchange??...think about it....

dont know where i am going with this.....just thinking of the future.....

_________________________________________
For Water worlds, nope--for Dry/Desert/ Hydrosphere 1-0 worlds, you have something there, TJ. Especially if no gas Giant is present to scoop up Hydrogen combine with O2 to make it with.

Might I direct your scholarship to the ancient but trustworthy TL-7 Laarusaliin Roughneck Frontier Fuel harvester (can be maintained as low as TL-6 though the LPO rockets come at higher prices and aren't as safe (ask the V-2 Rocket boys of WW2 that question!).
Three of these Low tech STL's,, an orbital station to process the Hydrogen skimmed, and glean off the Plastics & Propane rain (providing for other resources, not to mention occaisional Rare Noble gases-$$$McR) can set up such a world on the cheap (under 10BcR).

Those worlds without GG's of course are where you turn round and SELL the stuff off to!

 

[Father Fletch]

Liam, my comrade in arms, you of course are as astute as always. Let us not forget the ice on the moon, moons, comets, etc., which with enough effort are harvestable at TL7-8 for a reasonable cost.
The whole Battletech universe was based to some degree on the relative scarcity of free flowing water in the universe, and often one of the strategic targets of the mech wars was seizing water processing plants. I think that TJ is correct that some planets would pay top credit for H2O.
I always liked the degree of detailed background that the folks over at FASA came up with for the Battletech universe. Lets not forget, FASA was originally a Traveller supplement developer before they built their own playground.
FASA-Freedonian Aero-Space Administration

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Aparantly FASA entire reason-etre was to bankroll it's creators REAL mission. The making of a Ship's Bridge simulator that he encountered in merchant marine training into a cool game. (basically the mechwarrior series of games.)

Everything else was just a way to pay the R&D on the above (supposedly)

In the t20 book it dicusses intersteller money breifly...

to summarize from memory:

Cash is still needed.

High tech places use people's comms as 'electronic wallets'

some companies exist literally as credit/escrow agencies, using their massive resources to back your debts and then charging a fee for the service.

other companies depend on accounts at each outpost and must trust the local factor as a result.

(kinda reminds me of The Hudson's Bay Company, and the North West Company here in my nation around 1800's)

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
Liam, my comrade in arms, you of course are as astute as always. Let us not forget the ice on the moon, moons, comets, etc., which with enough effort are harvestable at TL7-8 for a reasonable cost.
The whole Battletech universe was based to some degree on the relative scarcity of free flowing water in the universe, and often one of the strategic targets of the mech wars was seizing water processing plants. I think that TJ is correct that some planets would pay top credit for H2O.

_________________________________
Aye, IMTU, we have the "Skimmers" (Lhyd fuel harvesters; the "Skummers" (deep diving ships for the rare noble gases, and occaisional Diamond rain caused by pressures at those depths (usually an UM/RCV tethered down to those depths to scoop em); the sedentary "Ice-Picks" (Ice asteroid miners), then the true "Belters"(asteroid belts) And the "Diggers"(miners dirtside/Underwater) involved in these various money-making ventures.

 

[mheacock]

When you're 20 or 30 or 40 parsecs away from your homeworld and you have to make payments on your 200 ton Free Trader once per month, it makes it nigh impossible to meet those payments using the X-Boat system (which is the only system available). People that are barely surviving month to month via trade and exploration are almost forced to stay very very close to home, otherwise default on those payments becomes inevitable.

 

[Geonee]

Originally posted by R_Kane:
How is banking handled interstellarly when updates between planetary branches would be restricted to updates by courier ships (or some such) with weeks or months between updates?

This is how I dealt with this, as it affects PCs:

Debit Cards

Comments welcome.

 

[womble]

Mheacock said:

When you're...parsecs away from your homeworld and you have to make payments on your...Free Trader once per month...nigh impossible to meet those payments using the X-Boat system...People that are barely surviving...are...forced to stay...close to home, otherwise default...becomes inevitable.

IIRC it says somewhere that the finance company won't put a repo note out on a ship unless a payment has been missed for 12 months (and I'd imagine that if the notice outbound met a payment inbound, it'd be cancelled. Unless some system glitch meant they didn't tally up...). The ship mortgage lenders are aware of and will have allowed for the comms delay.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

There is than low tech soltion to this problem discover and use in tech 1 societry which you hight tech people donot know about. When I was very young you could take than silver cert bill issue by the federal Resever Bank go to any bank an it they have than silver dollar coin get one 1 troy ounce of 900 fines(90%silver10%copper) coin worth 1 dollar.

In my Traveller Universe there is than Imperial coinage system that mint coins thoughtout the Imperium with mints in each subsector an bank can issue they own bank coinage good anywhere.
1 Kilogram of silver is worth 1000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of gold is worth 25000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of irridium is worth 40000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of platinum is worth 50000 cr/kg

Coins in each metal is issue in 1 grams, 5 grams, 10 grams, 20 grams and 30 grams size.

Silver series the most common in the Imperium.

1 gm coin worth 1 cr
5 gm coin worth 5 cr
10 gm coin worth 10 cr
20 gm coin worth 20 cr
30 gm coin worth 30 cr

Gold series the second most common in the Imperium

1 gm coin worth 25 cr
5 gm coin worth 125 cr
10 gm coin worth 250 cr
20 gm coin worth 500 cr
30 gm coin worth 750 cr

Irridium series mint by the Imperial only

1 gm coin worth 40 cr
5 gm coin worth 200 cr
10 gm coin worth 400 cr
20 gm coin worth 800 cr
30 gm coin worth 1200 cr
these coin are 100 % pure Irridium is harder than steel by many time.

Platinum series

1 gm coin worth 50 cr
5 gm coin worth 250 cr
10 gm coin worth 500 cr
20 gm coin worth 1000 cr
30 gm coin worth 1500 cr
Coin are (90% platium and 10% irridium as hard as steel.

with hight tech purerity detector availablie at tech level 9 and above but available thought out the Imperium coin can be test for purerity easy.

 

[mheacock]

Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
There is than low tech soltion to this problem discover and use in tech 1 societry which you hight tech people donot know about. When I was very young you could take than silver cert bill issue by the federal Resever Bank go to any bank an it they have than silver dollar coin get one 1 troy ounce of 900 fines(90%silver10%copper) coin worth 1 dollar.

In my Traveller Universe there is than Imperial coinage system that mint coins thoughtout the Imperium with mints in each subsector an bank can issue they own bank coinage good anywhere.
1 Kilogram of silver is worth 1000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of gold is worth 25000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of irridium is worth 40000 cr/kg
1 kilogram of platinum is worth 50000 cr/kg

Coins in each metal is issue in 1 grams, 5 grams, 10 grams, 20 grams and 30 grams size.

Silver series the most common in the Imperium.

1 gm coin worth 1 cr
5 gm coin worth 5 cr
10 gm coin worth 10 cr
20 gm coin worth 20 cr
30 gm coin worth 30 cr

Gold series the second most common in the Imperium

1 gm coin worth 25 cr
5 gm coin worth 125 cr
10 gm coin worth 250 cr
20 gm coin worth 500 cr
30 gm coin worth 750 cr

Irridium series mint by the Imperial only

1 gm coin worth 40 cr
5 gm coin worth 200 cr
10 gm coin worth 400 cr
20 gm coin worth 800 cr
30 gm coin worth 1200 cr
these coin are 100 % pure Irridium is harder than steel by many time.

Platinum series

1 gm coin worth 50 cr
5 gm coin worth 250 cr
10 gm coin worth 500 cr
20 gm coin worth 1000 cr
30 gm coin worth 1500 cr
Coin are (90% platium and 10% irridium as hard as steel.

with hight tech purerity detector availablie at tech level 9 and above but available thought out the Imperium coin can be test for purerity easy.

That's a little too D&D for me.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

In one of the older traveller book they did menond that the Imperium and many bank did issue coinage of
valuable metal like silver, gold, Irridium, and platinum as they where everywhere inside the Imperium
and outside the Imperium as a measure of wealth and value.Too many people nowday think you all me than complex hight tech solution to all problen when than
low tech one will work perfect well with less problen. Some planet's did issue paper money they said where back by valurely metal when in fact they where not at all.