InterPlanetary Exploitation

[Captain Zoom]

This smacks of a "prime directive" which, as MWM and others have often pointed out, does not exist in the OTU
If the natives had something worth trading there would be trade, there are plenty of low TL planets that aren't interdicted.
IMHO a megacorp could easily "win" the rights to develop the other worlds in an interdicted system, provided that the Imperium isn't hiding something

Just because something "smacks" of the prime directive from another setting and there is no prime directive in this setting, doesn't invalidate the idea of protecting unique undeveloped cultures. That's a logical fallacy. Yes, there is no official governmental directive in Traveller that prohibits interference with local or undeveloped cultures, but there's evidence in the game that some government agencies tend to worry more about undeveloped cultures than other government agencies, and certainly there are individuals and groups that are concerned about the issue.

It's been said that the Scouts have a tendency to interdict worlds to protect developing cultures (as opposed to the Imperial Navy which has a tendency to interdict worlds for punitive reasons). Also remember, that Imperial agencies must petition for Interdiction status, so the Imperial government does get to weigh the costs and benefits, so it's not something that some bureaucrat (scout/navy or otherwise) can simply sign off on.

If the Scout Service interdicts a system, I've had the impression they mean the whole system. If it comes to ordinary mining or other general activities, there are plenty of other places to go. If the system had something truly unique or rare, not just valuable, then maybe politics might allow a megacorp to "negotiate" the ability to exploit the resource despite the interdiction. Space is vast, and nickel iron ore from one asteroid belt isn't any better than nickel iron ore from another asteroid belt. Besides, a space blockade is easier to maintain if you simply don't let anyone near. If there are ships zipping about, a few might get lost and end up on the Interdicted world.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

<snip of much goodness>

Provided that the money keeps coming in the Imperial navy remains neutral and enforces the rules of war.

I agree with almost all of Sidd's position. Except . . .

ALL IMTU:

Fighting in space has to take place within the jurisdiction assigned to the worlds in question (usually, inside the 100 diameter limit), but outside traffic lanes to the Imperial Starport, and not threatening those traffic lanes, either.

IMTU: Most such concerns are handled in the Count's subsector court; and if a megacorporation is involved, it usually winds up at the Duke's sector court. Alternately, it may be played out in front of MoJ judges.

When a world is admitted to the Imperium, its jurisdiction over bodies in its own starsystem is established. If it has spaceflight capability on its own, it usually is ceded jurisdiction over all bodies, except . . . .

If the world is pre-spaceflight but not red-zoned, then Imperial Citizens or organizations may have occupied other star system bodies. If so, they usually retain jurisdiction over those other bodies when the pre-existing world is admitted. In a twist, it may be possible for a group of Imperial Citizens to settle in an asteroid belt (or whatever), mine and expand, grow in population, and have themselves admitted into the Imperium as the mainworld, and all the while in the habitable zone of the star system is a pre-spaceflight world that isn't yet admitted into the Imperium (for whatever reason).

However, in most cases, pre-spaceflight worlds that aren't yet ready for contact, much less trade and admission to the Imperium are red-zoned, and settlement on the other bodies in the star system is banned.

One of the things that handles most of these situations is the process of becoming a Member World. It involves becoming an Imperial Client State. At this point, the Candidate Member World (CMW), is granted many legal considerations. Tentative jurisdiction over bodies in the star system is assigned at this point. If pre-spaceflight, the world usually only gets the 100D limit. If space-capable, the world may apply with the Duke's Office for additional jurisdiction over other bodies in the system. Oddly, these decisions tend to get made quickly, though they're often heavily influenced by existing power groups. Once jurisdiction is assigned, everything else follows after that.

If a mainworld had jurisdiction over the only asteroid belt in the system, then, technically, corporations must go through whatever legal processes the mainworld government has in order to begin exploitation.

Of course, a big fat megacorporation may well choose to do an end-run around the rules.

Since jurisdiction over bodies is controlled by the Imperium, effectively at the sector level via the Duke, then a megacorporation who sees an unexploited body with no settlers on it may well try and persuade the Duke to reassign jurisdiction. Such a claim would receive serious consideration. Additional economic exploitation would mean greater tax revenues, something the Duke is always after. The Margrave over the star system may attempt to assist or resist such actions (which would, in turn, be influenced by how close the Margrave was to the government of the world or to the megacorporation), and the Count of the subsector will weigh in, as well. Political infighting galore will ensue. Historical precedence in such cases tend allow such shifts in jurisdiction, if the body is fallow and unused/unexploited. The most common course in cases where it looks like jurisdiction will be shifted is for the government with current jurisdiction to strike some type of deal with the megacorporation in question (either retaining the jurisdiction and allowing the megacorporation to take effective control; or ceding jurisdiction for some price).

Military action over jurisdiction may come into play, but is the rarest reason for two parties to go to war. Megacorporations have enormous resources at their disposal, but running military ops saps away at the bottom line, and is abhorred whenever possible. Covert ops in support of jurisdiction switches are far more likely . . . adventure, anyone?

 

[mike wightman]

Can mercenaries be written off as tax deductable???

What if the low TL world full of natives not ready for contact happens to have the richest lanthanum/zuchai crystal/space goat egg deposits in the sector?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
What if the low TL world full of natives not ready for contact happens to have the richest lanthanum/zuchai crystal/space goat egg deposits in the sector?

I'm sure some way could be found to accelerate their readiness.

 

[Captain Zoom]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Can mercenaries be written off as tax deductable???

What if the low TL world full of natives not ready for contact happens to have the richest lanthanum/zuchai crystal/space goat egg deposits in the sector?

I suspect they'd be out of luck in most cases. The Scout Service doesn't simply request Interdiction for all low TL natives. IF the Scout Service determined that there was something unique about the low TL natives that warranted Interdiction, THEN the Scout Service might ask for Interdiction, THEN there probably would be a political tug of war at the Imperial level between those who want to exploit the resources versus the Scout Service.

It's not entirely clear that the megacorp would win. The Emperor might have his/her own reasons to allow the Interdiction. This might be a petty reason (to punish the likely megacorp exploiter because one of its noble-directors snubbed the Emperor in some way). This might be simply because the Emperor likes the pictures sent back by the Scout Service, or the Emperor perceives some value in protecting the culture, or the Emperor might have a personal scientific bent and thinks it makes him look science friendly to grant the Interdiction despite the pressure from the megacorps, or if the culture is not human, it may placate non-human factions. The reason might even be economic - perhaps, although these minerals are rare, there are sufficient existing sources of the minerals and the Emperor's advisors think its a better long-term solution to bank the resources for future use (besides, megacorp X might not like the drop in profit they get on their existing mines when megacorp Y opens up new mines, so supporting Interdiction helps their bottom line). Imperial politics is fun, ain't it?

 

[LordVince]

Thanks, RainOfSteel. Your answer most closely fits what I had thought the case might be. I've been attempting to resolve the APPARENT conflict between "The Imperium makes no claims on Planets, but on the Space between them" and "The Imperial Nobles are responsible for Administration of the Worlds of Imperium".

The general consensus seems to be that the Imperium WOULD take an interest in non-Mainworld development of other bodies in a starsystem. DEPENDENT upon the PERCIEVED NEED of the Mainworld's population/industries, the Imperium would "administer" such activities to the benefit of all. If the Mainworld is Low-Tech/non-spacefaring, then the Imperium will make non-Mainworld exploitation deals ITSELF. If the Mainworld has a higher-Tech/Spacefaring capability, then the Imperium will often leave such dealings to the Mainworld authorities, but MONITOR the deal closely.

This all came up as an intellectual excercise, one day, between myself and a player playing a Merchant, who asked "Is there anything that would stop me from landing on some uninhabited Moon of a Gas Giant, building a Tank Farm, having a small fleet of fuel-skimmers gather hydrogen for free, and then selling it?"

My answer, at first, was "Well, maybe you might want to make some kind of a real estate deal with the Mainworld." To this, my Merchant replied, "Why? The Mainworlders are Tech-3 groundlings who barely keep open a Class D Starport. What can they do to stop me?"

And that started this thread.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
Thanks, RainOfSteel. Your answer most closely fits what I had thought the case might be.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
My answer, at first, was "Well, maybe you might want to make some kind of a real estate deal with the Mainworld." To this, my Merchant replied, "Why? The Mainworlders are Tech-3 groundlings who barely keep open a Class D Starport. What can they do to stop me?"

Well, I hope the TL-3 groundlings don’t apply to their local Marquis, who happens to be married to the subsector duchess’ daughter, whose mother happens to be best friends with Strephon from the days of their youth on Capital . . .

Excerpt from a letter by Duchess Enkirii to Strephon:
under Strephon’s personal encryption keys
Dear Strephon,

I’m having a little problem with Sternmetal Horizon’s local representatives and their attempts to illegally seize a gas giant in a starsystem with a mainworld inhabited by technologically disadvantaged Imperial Citizens.

I could use your help . . .

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
ALL IMTU:
[SNIP]

Beautiful stuff, will go into the Interstellar Law 101 syllabus IMTU's Merchant Academy. Very well thought out, and with just the right amount of reality to ring true.

 

[LordVince]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
ALL IMTU:
[SNIP]

Beautiful stuff, will go into the Interstellar Law 101 syllabus IMTU's Merchant Academy. Very well thought out, and with just the right amount of reality to ring true. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah. THAT'S what I meant to say!

 

[Wayne]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire.

In MTU, some of the Interdicted/Red Zone worlds have nothing to do with the "natives not being ready for Interstellar contact" and are only interdicted because a mega-corp paid the sub sector and/or sector noble(s) gobs of money and/or contract kick backs to have exclusive control of what is in system at the expense of the "natives" and all other mega-corps.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Wolfman:
In MTU, some of the Interdicted/Red Zone worlds have nothing to do with the "natives not being ready for Interstellar contact" and are only interdicted because a mega-corp paid the sub sector and/or sector noble(s) gobs of money and/or contract kick backs to have exclusive control of what is in system at the expense of the "natives" and all other mega-corps.

And that's an entirely reasonable assumption. Sometimes, no wait, a lot of the time the "little people" get stepped on by the big boys.

 

[mike wightman]

This fits MTU vision of how the Imperium does things perfectly.
Thanks Wolfman

 

[Ran Targas]

One thing I've had in MTU for a long time was the concept of Imperial trading stations.

On worlds with low TL and goods worth trading for, the Imperium constructs a trading station where it can control outside access to the natives and the natives access to high tech gear. They are a modular walled structure, designed to support only small traders and in limited numbers, hold a company sized garrison of Imperial troops with vehicles (to maintain order and discipline), and are administered by a member of the Imperial Scout Service. As the natives advance socially and technologically toward full Imperial citizenship, the station would grow incrementally into a true starport and center of Imperial power.

I tried to model it after the Roman frontier and specifically on the Hudson Bay and East India Companies with their trading outposts/forts on the fringes of the British Empire. I assumed though, that the Imperium would act responsibly to prevent the social upheaval and the imbalance of power that normally follows first contact and gentrification; using these stations to introduce the native population to the concepts of interstellar society.

Also from these stations, the Imperium could represent the interest of the natives and broker agreements with mega-corps or other business interests wishing to access the resources of the system.

In a mirror universe, these stations could be licensed to different trading companies for their exploitation, providing them with a monopoly on a system's resources or products, for as long as the tax revenues flow. Mercenary units might find them useful as recruiting depots or supply bases, where food, water, and other necessities are extorted for protection or traded firearms or military assistance.

 

[Antony]

The East Rimward Trading Company
The Star Coreward Bubble scandle

 

[LordVince]

Actually, Ran, the concept of a "Trade Station" makes a lot of sense -- it helps explain all those Tech 2-4 worlds out there with Class D+ Starports. I mean, Stop-over refueling Starports only go so far.

Maybe Malenfant could add a new Starport Classification in his updated UWP work -- A Class T (for Trader) Starport: it has the "ship service" capabilities of a Class D, but has improved Mods concerning Trade/Barter rolls.

 

[Burocrate]

>Self appointed wet blanket and thread ender for CotI (is it just me?)
>Ran Targas

Know the feeling. Seems that threads just loose momentum once they are covered fairly throughly. Don't dispair and please keep posting your thoughts.

 

[Ranger]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I have a question that relates I think. Wasn't there a "one system rule" that prevented any local government from having political control over more than one system?

P.S. I really like the Trading Station idea. It would fit right in with a progressive system of Imperial representation with Trading Stations evolving into Embassies and then Legations (Imperial government representatives) once the system achieves member world status. It also explains why SPA would run so many starports outside but close to the borders of the Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think there was such a rule, and if so it was broken by the Spinward Marches Supplement which puts Vilis in control of Garda-Vilis.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Ranger:
I know I'm late to this thread, but I have a question that relates I think. Wasn't there a "one system rule" that prevented any local government from having political control over more than one system?

Government Code 6: Captive Government, has been around since book 3.

If there is no Imperial law that prevents one world from being in control of another politically or militarily, there is also no Imperial law preventing a world from rebelling successfully.

IMTU: The Imperium frowns on conquest in any form, and has many methods, both overt and subtle to deal with worlds that transgress. And let us not forget, that since it'll be the Sector or Subsector Duke making decisions about, "Bringing a trangressing world to task," then we can be certain that if the appropriate noble approves of the actions taken, then Imperium will take little or no action. Usually what happens is some government or other collapses and massive humanitarian problems ensue. The Imperium doensn't want to deal with it, so it gives implicit permission for a nearby world to "take over". If that world doesn't do its job right, the target world can legally rebel, so in the long run, to the Imperium, it really doesn't matter (so long as neither world is engaging in human rights violations that make the press).

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Exactly, the average sub-sector governor is under a lot of pressure to maintain order and the flow of tax revenue, not to generate expenses; civil war or rebellion are generally not as profitable (in the grand scheme of things) as economic stability.

WRT trade stations; should we start another thread? Maybe flesh out this idea a little more?

I think it could be a great foundation for a ground-side campaign or adventure arc (even an introductory adventure). Imagine parking some PC's at a frontier trading station, assigned to support diplomatic, trade, or scientific missions in addition to exploring the planet.

Could be good gaming for almost any type character, with plenty of opportunity for interaction with natives and eachother.

- Merchies looking for trade goods or valuable resources.

- Scouts exploring the planet and making first contact with native groups.

- Military types acting as bodyguards or liaison.

- Scientists researching the culture, biology, and geology of the planet.

- All being the first Imperials to uncover the secrets of the planet.

- All with separate (and perhaps contractual) motivations for being on the planet in the first place.

What do you all think? Worthy of further development?