Improved Low Berths?

[Rerednaw]

Hi folks!
I was just wondering if there ever was a supplement on Improved Low Berths?

AFAIK the mortality rate in classic only factors: Endurance and medical skill.

With improved medical technology, advancements in TL, were there any supplements (or maybe a JTAS article) that covered this?

Thanks!

 

[McPerth]

While this article was for MT, I guess it would not be difficult to adapt to CT (after all they are quite compatible in most aspects, craft design excluded), at least IYTU:

There's an interesting article about hibernation and low berths in TD #21, where we're told there are two kinds of it:

• until TL 11 the most used is the chill berth, where the user is effectively hibernated, and he/she is colled to nearly fozen.
• at TL 12+, the availability of the fast drug antidote allows the cold berth, where the user is put under fast drug, slowing his/her metabolism by a factor of sixty, and the antidote is given to reanimate him/her.

My guess is that in the case of cold berth, the users are also put to sleep to avoid them to become dizzy due to how fast (relative to them) things would occur arround them (imagine what would be to hear noises accelerated 60 times, or to see things moving 60 time faster).

 

[Rerednaw]

MGT eh? Well it's a start let me hunt for it thanks.

Anything from the Classic era?

 

[McPerth]

MGT eh? Well it's a start let me hunt for it thanks.

No, not MgT, but MT (MegaTraveller). BTW, that is quite close to Classic Era (in fact, I played Classic Era with MT rules).

And fast drug (the one allowing this) was also in CT rules (even in the more basic ones, as it is in The Traveller Book)...

 

[Spinward Scout]

advancements in TL

I always thought there should be a plus to the survival roll for this.

 

[kilemall]

I've just assumed a lower mortality rather then layer on TL advancement. In general I just don't see many people taking such a risk on voyages.

Now, what I do is have a risk of damage, on freezing and thawing so to speak, so the combination might kill.

So on failure of either end of the process, 3D damage.

This approach is particularly dangerous for kids, the elderly or the wounded, so many parents will pay at least mid-passage and at least one parent takes low passage.

Also means a common issue for low passage passengers is recovery time from the trip.

 

[GypsyComet]

The original context can be useful here. Cold Berths and the Low Lottery were inspired by the Dumarest books, where the technology is intended for livestock transport and is meant to be done on massive scales where the inherent loss just means a Landing BBQ. The use for humans was unintended and illegal, but the fringers did it anyway, giving the desperate a way to travel cheaply with some risk.

Within Traveller, the medical supervision is an important detail. As Marc writes in Agent of the Imperium, always tip your cold sleep attendant going in...

 

[LeperColony]

The degree of danger presented by Low Berth varied by edition as well. In TNE it was notably less perilous, for instance.

I think even at its most lethal, Low Berth danger was mostly an game play artifact, where the system didn't actually reflect the world, but the odds were heightened for play purposes. Just like certain statistics (like Soc) were generated using a system meant for PCs, rather than reflecting the world (so 1/36 of all people weren't SOC 2 and weren't SOC 12 in the setting).

For instance, certain sources mention Imperial Navy vessels potentially carrying an entire spare crew (the "frozen watch"). If Low Berth had a large mortality rate, that would be a death sentence.

 

[BlackBat242]

If there is supposed to be some kind of testing & certification of the low berths I have not seen anything in CT materials to spell that out clearly.

As far as I am concerned, the low berth mortality rate reflects old poorly-maintained equipment on old poorly-maintained ships (the kind of 40+ year old merchants and converted scouts that PCs can afford to buy passage on or buy themselves).

Add in crew with little or no experience in actually operating the low berths (even PCs with Med skill won't have had much if any formal training in cryo-techniques), and you have a recipe for "death by misadventure"*.

Aboard military vessels, with high maintenance & training standards, and with medical personnel specially trained in cryo-techniques, and with subjects in good-excellent physical condition and with well-documented medical conditions and records, the "frozen watch" is a process with an acceptably-low failure risk.

Medium-large passenger liners also have highly-maintained equipment, highly-trained medical personnel & attendants, and demand in-depth medical records on passengers requesting "cold-sleep passage".




* A death by misadventure, as recorded by coroners and on death certificates and associated documents, is one that is primarily attributed to an accident that occurred due to a dangerous risk that was taken voluntarily.

 

[kilemall]

If there is supposed to be some kind of testing & certification of the low berths I have not seen anything in CT materials to spell that out clearly.

As far as I am concerned, the low berth mortality rate reflects old poorly-maintained equipment on old poorly-maintained ships (the kind of 40+ year old merchants and converted scouts that PCs can afford to buy passage on or buy themselves).

Add in crew with little or no experience in actually operating the low berths (even PCs with Med skill won't have had much if any formal training in cryo-techniques), and you have a recipe for "death by misadventure"*.

Aboard military vessels, with high maintenance & training standards, and with medical personnel specially trained in cryo-techniques, and with subjects in good-excellent physical condition and with well-documented medical conditions and records, the "frozen watch" is a process with an acceptably-low failure risk.

Medium-large passenger liners also have highly-maintained equipment, highly-trained medical personnel & attendants, and demand in-depth medical records on passengers requesting "cold-sleep passage".




* A death by misadventure, as recorded by coroners and on death certificates and associated documents, is one that is primarily attributed to an accident that occurred due to a dangerous risk that was taken voluntarily.

Not unreasonable, but I would expect a higher fare for safer passage, if nothing else covering the cost of better/newer equipment and medical personnel.

Probably different terminology too- cold/frozen vs cool/refrigerated or some such.

 

[ady]

Maybe also consider making use of a world's medical facilities? Low berth passengers arriving at a high population TL15 world with a high social consience and 'health care for all' might have a better revival rate than those being woken on a primitive E class frontier outpost.

 

[coliver988]

Maybe also consider making use of a world's medical facilities? Low berth passengers arriving at a high population TL15 world with a high social consience and 'health care for all' might have a better revival rate than those being woken on a primitive E class frontier outpost.

I've always assumed that the defrost cycles was onboard, as well as the sleep. That the low berths were basically part of the ship, requiring dedicated power lines and such. Of course, there are more portable versions with batteries or an independent power source, but I would assume they take more space. Regardless, all the medical stuff is done in-house vs at the origin/destination planet. So that it does not matter if you are TL 2 or TL F when defrosting. Unless you bring in some local doctors & equipment...yeah, never really thought through the process a whole lot.

Note: I've only used cold berths once in a Mongoose game I ran as that was how the adventure started. Never used them otherwise, so never really thought overly much about them. Especially as in Classic they are pretty lethal.

 

[spank]

Not unreasonable, but I would expect a higher fare for safer passage, if nothing else covering the cost of better/newer equipment and medical personnel.

Probably different terminology too- cold/frozen vs cool/refrigerated or some such.

Well, MT and TNE add this little tid bit: "Commercial starship lines offering low berth passage typically guarantee that deberthing will be conducted by a physician of at least skill level 3"

Which makes alot of sense, Passengers put in Low Berth are put into it before departure and revived after arrival, so it will likely be local doctors at the Starport doing the job. It makes no sense that a physician would be on hand at the Starport and not be utilized to debirth sleepers. Much easier {and safer} to keep a few qualified doctors on hand at the Starport, rather than trust the job to a ship's medic, or stock each ship with a medic of skill 3+.

Considering the survivability of Low Berth in MT it's fairly reliable. The Task is Routine, EDU, Medic, 1 min (fateful). So 7+ base, +3 medic guaranteed, +EDU which will be +0,+1,or+2.

So your survival chances look like this:

Physician	EDU	Check
Medical 3	0 -4	4+ 91%
Medical 3	5 - 9	3+ 97.2
Medical 3	10 - 14	2+ 100%

 

[spank]

LOL,
Just yesterday I was considering how to integrate TL with revival success. I came up with this:

TL	Revival mod
9-10	-1
11-12	0
13-14	+1
15-16	+2

That way your base TL 11-12 Free/Far trader has basic unmodifed Low Berths, a lower TL ship will have a worse survival rate, and a higher TL ship coupled with a Doctor will pretty much guarantee survival. Even a Doctor with a low EDU.

Maybe also consider making use of a world's medical facilities? Low berth passengers arriving at a high population TL15 world with a high social consience and 'health care for all' might have a better revival rate than those being woken on a primitive E class frontier outpost.

 

[Rupert]

Well, MT and TNE add this little tid bit: "Commercial starship lines offering low berth passage typically guarantee that deberthing will be conducted by a physician of at least skill level 3"

Which makes alot of sense, Passengers put in Low Berth are put into it before departure and revived after arrival, so it will likely be local doctors at the Starport doing the job. It makes no sense that a physician would be on hand at the Starport and not be utilized to debirth sleepers. Much easier {and safer} to keep a few qualified doctors on hand at the Starport, rather than trust the job to a ship's medic, or stock each ship with a medic of skill 3+.

Except that the doctor will cost. Cheaper for the ship to thaw you themselves and pocket the doctor's fee. Now, in travel to a well-regulated system, that won't happen. In a not so-well run one, where there's little oversight or plenty of corruption, well...

In TNE medical-3 is nothing special - a doctor can manage to not have it in a single medical skill if they work at it (i.e. They take Medical (Truama Aid)-3 and Medical (Surgery)-3 at Med School, and that's your fresh-out-of-school doctor), but really they'll have 6 in one speciality and 3 in the other two, and get better from there. A non-doctor health-care specialist will be much the same unless utterly green.

Anyway Medical-3 on top of EDU6 (average) is gives Medical (Diagnosis)-9, which means there's a small (2.25%) chance of an Outstanding Failure (and death). That minimum qualification won't save you from the poorly educated or demented practitioner.

Of course, out in the wilds if the guy doing the reviving has any medical skill and isn't an alcoholic, you're ahead.

 

[Black Vulmea]

Considering the survivability of Low Berth in MT it's fairly reliable. The Task is Routine, EDU, Medic, 1 min (fateful). So 7+ base, +3 medic guaranteed, +EDU which will be +0,+1,or+2.

Travellers Digest 21, which is also MT era, has it as Difficult. Does GDW have it differently?

 

[spank]

TNE is a very different system, flat probability, different success rates, and more effects from failed (but not catastrophic) checks.
I rather like the failure chart from TNE, It gave a good range of results from slightly injured to organ damage.

 

[Rupert]

Travellers Digest 21, which is also MT era, has it as Difficult. Does GDW have it differently?

Yes, MT2, p.87 says:

Low Passage: Transportation while in cryogenic sleep (suspended animation) is possible at relatively low cost to the passenger. The passenger is placed in a low passage berth before the ship takes off and travels the entire journey in a state of suspended animation. He does not age, and requires very little life support. Unfortunately, the low passage system involves some intrinsic dangers to the passenger, and he runs some risk of not surviving the voyage. Surviving uses the following UTP:

​

To survive a low passage voyage: Routine, Medical, Edu,​

1 min. (fateful).​

​

Referee: The Medical skill and Education characteristics used as modifiers to this task roll are those of the attending physician at the time of deberthing, not those of the character at risk. Various affects occur for any mishap (roll 2D): Superficial Mishap: The subject temporarily suffers 1D wounds for 1-6 days, after which healing is automatic; skin loses some of its tone and color for 1-6 weeks, having a gray, wrinkled appearance. Minor Mishap: The subject temporarily suffers 2D wounds for 1-6 days, after which healing is automatic; subject experiences motor function problems for 1-6 weeks with corresponding loss of 2 points of dexterity during that time. Major Mishap: The Subject suffers 3D permanent wounds; the subject’s internal organs are damaged; and the Subject must undergo medical diagnosis and treatment to restore full health. Destroyed Mishap: This is not possible on a 2D mishap.

Commercial starship lines offering low berth passage typically guarantee that deberthing will be conducted by a physician of at least skill level 3; TAS advises all travellers to exercise caution when travelling low berth.

With a skilled Medic the odds of something seriously nasty happening are very low, and for a character to die would require something extraordinary that caused the referee to rule that mishaps are rolled on 3D, and that a mishap roll then results in 15+. So in MT low passage isn't life threatening if you're in decent shape (i.e. you physical stats total 19+).

TD21 makes the experience potentially more risky, not just because the revival roll is harder, but because there's that initial roll. On the other hand, it says unskilled rolls are OK (in the MT2 task, they're not and so will be Difficult)

 

[Black Vulmea]

Yes, MT2, p.87 says . . .

Huh. That's odd.

Low berths are a kinda big deal in Traveller; strange that DGP and GDW were on different pages on that.

Thanks, Rupe.

 

[spank]

Huh. That's odd.

Low berths are a kinda big deal in Traveller; strange that DGP and GDW were on different pages on that.

Thanks, Rupe.

Yes, MT2, p.87 says:



With a skilled Medic the odds of something seriously nasty happening are very low, and for a character to die would require something extraordinary that caused the referee to rule that mishaps are rolled on 3D, and that a mishap roll then results in 15+. So in MT low passage isn't life threatening if you're in decent shape (i.e. you physical stats total 19+).

TD21 makes the experience potentially more risky, not just because the revival roll is harder, but because there's that initial roll. On the other hand, it says unskilled rolls are OK (in the MT2 task, they're not and so will be Difficult)

The MT Player's Manual says on page 37 "To revive a low passage passenger: Routine, Medical, Edu, 1 min (fateful)" That's what I was going off of.

I think Rupert's looking at the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Page 87.