Imperial Crust Defence or Defence in Depth

[rancke]

I've always thought Norris kept a reserve status (with commisions promptly arriving mostly because his civil status) and was reserve aldmiral at the start of the war (and off course CiC of the Regina Planetary Navy). If so, at the declaration of Martial Law, he is reactivated from reserve with a high rank enough to take the command of the 1st fleet.

You mean that having left the IN, they kept promoting him anyway? Well, that's possible, I suppose, but I never even considered it. Which is why, when I did a writeup of Norris for "A Festive Occasion", I mentioned that as a subsector duke he ranked ex officio as a fleet admiral.

EDIT: Missed this the first time around: Norris wouldn't be CiC of the Regina Planetary Navy. The planetary forces belong to Regina, and Norris has nothing whatsoever to do with the government of Regina. But he would be in charge of the Duchy of Regina Navy (assuming for purposes of argument that it exists). But then, if that's the source of his naval rank, all the other high dukes will likewise be in charge of their respective ducal navies and thus likewise in possession of naval rank. Ex officio, as it were.

This is my how I've always seen it, but I have no hard proof in canon to support it. Just makes me more sense than seing him, just as a noble (albeit a high one) to override teh IN Chain of Command, and the local Aldmiral bowing to that.

There's historical precedence for that. Royal governors gave orders to generals and admirals stationed in their provinces in their capacity as direct representative of the king. (Of course, over a period of several centuries and between half a dozen or more European powers there were considerable variation. In some cases a governor would be his own captain-general, which would, of course, give him a military rank as well as his civil rank.)

Norris isn't "just a noble". He's the local duke, the direct representative of the Emperor, exercising the Imperial Mandate (according to Nobles) in all matters pertaining to his duchy. Even the sector duchess can only give him orders that pertain to sector-wide matters; when it comes to his own duchy she is merely his peer and her Imperial Mandate does not overlap his in such matters. I really don't see anything incongruent in him being able to tell a fleet admiral "go", and have him going. (And do note that he does NOT outrank sector admirals).

AFAIK (I repeat I'm not in the military), when military units are out of communications to higher command, the seniorest officier takes command and a loal Chain of Command is organized.

In TU, due to the delay in communications, this is the usual state of affairs, and so I think is quite logical any Aldmiral accepts orders form a Senior Aldmiral, if not totally contadictory with his own orders (or those given to him by an even Seniorest Aldmiral).

The question is, if Sector Admiral Santanocheev at Mora tells Commodore d'Example to take his squadron to Regina and report to the Fleet Admiral commanding the 193rd Fleet and d'Example calls at Rhylanor on his way to Regina, can the fleet admiral commanding the 212th Fleet say "Hey, I could use an extra squadron; d'Example, you're with me!"? The boardgame implies that he can, but I doubt it, and I very much doubt he would even if he could. And if he did, I think he'd need a very good excuse to avoid being broken.


Hans

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

AFAIK (I repeat I'm not in the military), when military units are out of communications to higher command, the seniorest officier takes command and a loal Chain of Command is organized.

In TU, due to the delay in communications, this is the usual state of affairs, and so I think is quite logical any Aldmiral accepts orders form a Senior Aldmiral, if not totally contadictory with his own orders (or those given to him by an even Seniorest Aldmiral).

the question is, if Sector Admiral Santanocheev at Mora tells Commodore d'Example to take his squadron to Regina and report to the Fleet Admiral commanding the 193rd Fleet and d'Example calls at Rhylanor on his way to Regina, can the fleet admiral commanding the 212th Fleet say "Hey, I could use an extra squadron; d'Example, you're with me!"? The boardgame implies that he can, but I doubt it, and I very much doubt he would even if he could. And if he did, I think he'd need a very good excuse to avoid being broken.

the whole point of the military chain of command is that thier is an established list of who outranks who and who is in charge when nobody higher is present.

as to Commodre d'Example, I think it's best to look at historical examples form the age of sail, which show us that commanders would, could, and did do exactly the sort of thing your suggesting (reinforcing another fleet for a specific op while passing though thier AOR), provided it did't interfere with thier previous orders to much. So, if Sect Adm Santanocheev had said "you are to reinforce 193rd fleet with haste, arriving no later that <date>", then Commodre d'Example could turn down the 212th admiral, citing orders form sector, but if his orders were just "reinforce 193rd fleet", then he would be able to join the 212th for their attack if it didn't delay him too much.

also, even in the frist example ("get thier by <date>"), he could still work with the 212th if doing so did not prevent him form completing his orders ("sir, i can join the attack, but i must leave within 3 weeks or i will miss my link up with the 193rd").

 

[rancke]

the whole point of the military chain of command is that thier is an established list of who outranks who and who is in charge when nobody higher is present.

But someone of higher rank IS "present", in the form of his written orders.

as to Commodre d'Example, I think it's best to look at historical examples form the age of sail, which show us that commanders would, could, and did do exactly the sort of thing your suggesting (reinforcing another fleet for a specific op while passing though thier AOR), provided it did't interfere with their previous orders to much.

That's just the crux of the matter, isn't it? I'm talking of countermanding Admiral Santanocheev's orders.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

You mean that having left the IN, they kept promoting him anyway? Well, that's possible, I suppose, but I never even considered it. Which is why, when I did a writeup of Norris for "A Festive Occasion", I mentioned that as a subsector duke he ranked ex officio as a fleet admiral.

Well, I see it (more or less) like a Solomani naval officier joining the Home Guard Navy after mustering out, and being able to be promoted as reserve officier in the Home Guard, that's what I meant.

EDIT: Missed this the first time around: Norris wouldn't be CiC of the Regina Planetary Navy. The planetary forces belong to Regina, and Norris has nothing whatsoever to do with the government of Regina. But he would be in charge of the Duchy of Regina Navy (assuming for purposes of argument that it exists). But then, if that's the source of his naval rank, all the other high dukes will likewise be in charge of their respective ducal navies and thus likewise in possession of naval rank. Ex officio, as it were.

You're right here. My mistake confusing Regina Planetary Navy with Regina Subsector Navy.

There's historical precedence for that. Royal governors gave orders to generals and admirals stationed in their provinces in their capacity as direct representative of the king. (Of course, over a period of several centuries and between half a dozen or more European powers there were considerable variation. In some cases a governor would be his own captain-general, which would, of course, give him a military rank as well as his civil rank).

Most of this fleet was assigned as on station on the colony in question, becoming 'de facto' colonial forces. I'm not sure they could do that in larger forces sent there for specifica missions and seen as main elements of the fleet.

Anyway the borderline was more thin that represented in TU, both in colonial/imperial forces and in civilian/military chain of command.

Norris isn't "just a noble". He's the local duke, the direct representative of the Emperor, exercising the Imperial Mandate (according to Nobles) in all matters pertaining to his duchy. Even the sector duchess can only give him orders that pertain to sector-wide matters; when it comes to his own duchy she is merely his peer and her Imperial Mandate does not overlap his in such matters. I really don't see anything incongruent in him being able to tell a fleet admiral "go", and have him going. (And do note that he does NOT outrank sector admirals).

True, and he is also a Naval Officier (albeit a Reserve one) and (as discussed before) a CiC for a reserve/subsector fleet. See most of the Sector Dukes are not represented on FFW as officiers. I guess is because most of them hold no Naval Rank, have no Naval experiencie, and are wise enough to keep their noses out of where they don't belong.

BTW, in MT, Lucan meets the two first criteria, but not the third, and results are on OTU history...

The question is, if Sector Admiral Santanocheev at Mora tells Commodore d'Example to take his squadron to Regina and report to the Fleet Admiral commanding the 193rd Fleet and d'Example calls at Rhylanor on his way to Regina, can the fleet admiral commanding the 212th Fleet say "Hey, I could use an extra squadron; d'Example, you're with me!"? The boardgame implies that he can, but I doubt it, and I very much doubt he would even if he could. And if he did, I think he'd need a very good excuse to avoid being broken.

But orders Sector Aldmiral gave to Commodore d'Example may well be outdated when Fleet Aldmiral asks him to join... Maybe if Sector Aldmiral could know about the situation of the 193rd fleet he would have sent him there...

That's the problem with such lapse in communications, and it's because so I said commanding officiers have to have quite a free hand in exercising initiative (until they go wrong in doing it).

Remember, Grouchy obeyed the orders given him by Napoleon, not listening to Gerard, who advised him to march to the guns...

But someone of higher rank IS "present", in the form of his written orders.

Written orders that may well be obsolete...

Keeping with age of sail examples comparative, remember the film Captain Hornblower, where he keeps his orders of collaboring with "El Supremo", orders made obsolete by the peace and alliance between Great Britain and Spain.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

But someone of higher rank IS "present", in the form of his written orders.


That's just the crux of the matter, isn't it? I'm talking of countermanding Admiral Santanocheev's orders.


Hans

Your not countermanding orders, your modifying them in relation to unforseen events. Thats not just a semantics thing, it's how they (age of sail navies) had to work

in a situation where the next rank up is several weeks away (i.e. age of sail earth, or traveller), then most ranking officers (captian and above, at the very least), will be expected to, chosen for, and required to use thier discretion and initative to decide what to do. this can mean going agianst the wording of the orders, or even outright ignoring them, in order to acomplish "the greater good".

to belabour the d'Example.

Commodore d'Example orders, form the sector admiral, are to meet with the 193rd fleet, based in Regina, and take futher orders form OC 193rd.

their may be other parts to the order (travel via these bases, conduct patrols in these systems, send my regards to duke norris, etc), but the key elements are that Commodore d'Example needs to get to Regina and join the fleet thier.

en route, a situation has developed near Rhylanor, while Commodore d'Example is in-system (0r otherwise in contact with the 212th fleet admiral). the fleet admiral wants Commodore d'Example's CruRon to help deal with the situation.

Can the Admiral of the 212th give a direct order to Commodore d'Example to make him join 212 fleet?

No, he can't, Commodore d'Example is not in his chain of command (either he's directly attached to Sector, or to 193rd fleet, nither of which OC 212th has authority over)

Can the Admiral of the 212th make a request to Commodore d'Example to make him join 212 fleet?

Yes, he can. Commodore d'Example then must choose, based on his own judgement, wether he can lend aid without impairing his ability to complete his standing orders. if he thinks that he can help the 212th without breaking his orders, then he can, and should, lend aid (even if it's just aggreing to dely for a 3weeks to guard Rhylanor while the 212th is away). If cannot, then he is prefectly able to say no.

If the situation his bad enough, Commodore d'Example may choose to go with the 212th, even though this will prevent him form completing his orders form Sector, becuase the reasoning behind those orders is no longer valid due to the changes of situation.

in No point is he overstepping his authority as the CruRon commander. the Imperial navy has given him command of the CruRon because they think his is smart enough, capable enough, and trustworthy enough to be given control of that asset and direct it as needed, without reference to higher authority,

to summarise:

the Fleet admiral of the 212th cannot order someone to ignore orders form Sector. However, a officer may choose to ignore orders form above if he feels that it is the end result is worth it.

 

[Maccat]

Crust vs defense in depth, never thought of the follow on to the crust being "in depth" per se, more an "islands of resistance" sort of thing.

With the legacy (and possibility!) of more entire wars occuring and ending before capital is informed, and numerous emporers of the flag, in some sense i see the falling back thing being more a matter of...

All the admirals are drinking the good champagne at the depot fighting over custom designed fleet set ups (and associated budget wars) to say nothing of jockeying for position within the military imperial navy structure in *addition* to trying to maintain/improve their capital-based noble allegiances and ranks, all the while being worked against (and monitored) in the fear they may "make the bid" to become the next emporer.

The big corridor "response" fleet is more of an attempt to prevent the next emporer of the flag having a straight run to capital lol. As in the structure of the imperial naval fleet forces is more a byproduct of the structure and politics of the imperiums internal workings, with some skein of justification vs "external" threats.

Also the widely disparate differences in the worlds, the people budget TL and value/influence of the large high pop high TL worlds outweighs most all else for any military naval issue.

It always struck me there was an element of loss of TL advantage of the Imperial forces as a factor as well. Maybe there was a whole in depth crust based on J3, which took forever and tons of resources to implement, which then got thrown out the window and bypassed when higher jump ships became the fleets. Possible as well the inability to devote that many ships and resources, or maybe regina just said no the ships we're buying through the tax, you *will* station a defensive fleet here as opposed to some 100 pop Megacorp mining outpost.

IMTU there is no network(s) of J6 courier comms, i do like the fake freighter as imperial family secret thing. I can understand that it "makes more sense" in many ways to do it that way, but there *is* an X-Boat network, and even it's route layout is horribly inefficient. You want faster commision charter or order a ship to make the journey, take the adventure of running a high priority message on a courier run, form a tsak force, whatever. I take the J4 Imperial Navy "standard" as being quite high, tend to prefer J3 ships with 2x jump fuel, and/or redundant power/drive systems ala the exploratory cruiser. Rather than having J3 trade as it being "most efficient" there are 1kt 3kt 5kt 10kt, maybe even some larger J4 freighters following the X-Boat routes.

I see some ship pilot in a bar saying "I've made the Regina to Rhylanor run in 10 parsecs"

 

[Matt123]

the Fleet admiral of the 212th cannot order someone to ignore orders form Sector. However, a officer may choose to ignore orders form above if he feels that it is the end result is worth it.

Nicely put (the entire post, not just the bit above). The same logic is applied to the Nobility. A suitably high ranking Noble may request the use of the Emperors assets, but cannot demand.

But if requested there should be a very good reason for the Officers refusal, not necessarily expressed to the Noble, but definitely to his senior officer.

 

[Matt123]

How do you know what is the norm for interstellar trade?

I'd like to see the canon that states it consists predominantly of low jump traders travelling many parsecs past good ports to deliver rare cargos to far flung destinations.

According to FT, the BTN for Muan Gwi and Mora is 7 (rounded down to 6.5)+6.5 minus the distance modifier if 4.5 (Muan Gwi to Capital is 120 parsecs and Capital to Mora is 131 parsecs) or 9. That works out as between 50,000 and 100,000 dT of goods per year. Not a lot, but still not exactly nothing. And you can bet it's all going to be high-end luxury goods.

So you are suggesting that a trader loads up at one destination then travels 120-131 parsecs (30 weeks at jump 4, 20 weeks at jump 6) before selling his cargo... Thats one or two deliveries a year, assuming you can get a similarly high value cargo heading back.

I think you need to explore other logic to explain that phenomena. For example the transfer of gifts between the Noblity on Capital and the Nobility of the Marches would likely occupy a good chunk of that 50,000 plus dton a year. Add goodwill gifts within and between Megacorps, shifting top secret components from Capital to the Marches, the personal effects of those who do make the pilgramage or decide to retire in a far flung place and of course products that originated in Capital but have taken decades to be traded along the route and almost accidentally arrive at Mora.

I might add that time-critical usually means perishable. Time critical, perishable = small cargos, shipped often. Meaning it becomes really hard to fill a trader, but you must maintain the service. Of course that assumes there is such a thing as a perishable cargo by TL13-15.

You can't grow genuine Terran foodstuff anywhere but on Terra (well, you can, but you get busted for fraud if you're found out). Come to that, you can't manufacture genuine Terran goods anywhere but Terra either. Why do you think the British didn't just grow their own tea at home? And paid more for Ming china than for Sheffield?

If I wanted Terran Roses on Muan Gwi, I'd build hot houses, not send a buyer to Terra and pay a premium for a dedicated trader earning no other income for that period. If I have to I'll buy a licence to grow and use the Terran brand name. I definitely would not import them.

On tea, the British climate is poor for tea growing, something about it being too cold. The British did grow their own potatoes rather than import them. Which leads me to the observation that it is far more likely over long distances, that interesting imports will be copied or licensed by high tech, high population worlds rather than imported. Coca-cola is not exported from the US can by can. Coca-cola exports licenses for factories and Coca-cola is made locally. McD's exports a restaurant brand and a system, the burgers are made locally using local labor and ingredients.

On china, France imported far more Sheffield china than Ming china. Ming china was worth a premium because of its rarity in Europe and because examples worth shipping to Europe had art value. However by far the bulk of the trade by international shipping was between Britain and Europe.

Rhylanor to Mora has a BTN of 10 (6+6-2). That's between 1 and 5 million dT per year. If only one part in a thousand of that is time-critical, you can keep a 100dT payload J6 ship occupied hauling that all year long. And that's before we take a look at the passenger traffic.

Hmmm, ok lets look at that.

Thats a J6 jump to Fosy's Class A starport, refuel and a J5 jump to Mora. A Book 5 975ton J6 M2 Trader will do that carrying 100 ton of cargo.

The cargo is time critical, so needs regular departures, say 7 days a week. To cover time in jump space 14 days, refueling at Fosy say a day, discharge cargo, crew shore leave and embark new cargo say 4 days. Total 19 days each way. We need 38 ships. Allow for ships out of service for maintenance and we need 40 ships. Enough so we can justify a ship construction discount

Ship cost is 573.8MCr (with construction discount) crew=8
Costs per month are;
2.400 MCr -Mortgage
0.887 MCr -Refined Fuel (high end service) (ave 17.6 parsecs/mth @ 97.5ton/parsec, total 1716 + PP fuel 58.5 = 1775 x 500Cr)
0.016 MCr -Life support @ 2000Cr/crew
0.048 MCr -Maintenance (.1% of ship cost/12 months)
0.040 MCr -Salaries, Pilot (6000Cr), Navigator (5000Cr), 5.1 x Engineer (4000Cr), Medic (2000Cr) plus 20% on salaries for experienced & reliable crew.
3.391 MCr -TOTAL Expenses per Ship per Month
x 40 ships
135.64 MCr TOTAL Expences per month for the Fleet
+30% to generate profits, cover admin expences, etc.
176.33 MCr INCOME Needed for the Business.

Income.
100ton delivered every day x 30 days, 3000 ton per month.

176.33 MCr / 3000 ton delivered = 58,800 Cr charged per cargo ton.

If passenger traffic, then 23 high passage (remainder go to Steward staterooms) will be delivered per day. 690 per month.
176.33MCr / 690 passengers = 255,500 Cr per trip. 511,000Cr per High Passage round trip.

"Normal" traders will deliver cargo at 11,000 Cr per cargo ton (based on 1,000 Cr per ton/parsec). And travel by J4 liner along x-boat routes = 50,000Cr (5 weeks vs 2 weeks). 100,000 Cr per High Passage round trip.

What's a J6 dunger?

Milenium Falcon equivalent, looks like crap, goes like stink.

 

[McPerth]

Nicely put (the entire post, not just the bit above). The same logic is applied to the Nobility. A suitably high ranking Noble may request the use of the Emperors assets, but cannot demand.

But if requested there should be a very good reason for the Officers refusal, not necessarily expressed to the Noble, but definitely to his senior officer.

I gues the noble issue would be (AFAIK, aside form not being into military, neither I am US citizen, so forgive me if my assumptions are wrong) as a State governor asking Federal troops/ships to obey him. While he has command over NG troops, he has none over Federal troops, and while the US people (so US sovereign) representative there, he still has no authotity over this Federal asset.

The main difference is that the Federal commander can ask for orders at the Federal Government/JCS just with a radoi call, and the IN commander cannot.

But if the Federal commander could not contact higher officier (or when historically he couldn't), should he go out of its way to obbey the State governor?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I gues the noble issue would be (AFAIK, aside form not being into military, neither I am US citizen, so forgive me if my assumptions are wrong) as a State governor asking Federal troops/ships to obey him. While he has command over NG troops, he has none over Federal troops, and while the US people (so US sovereign) representative there, he still has no authotity over this Federal asset.

The main difference is that the Federal commander can ask for orders at the Federal Government/JCS just with a radoi call, and the IN commander cannot.

But if the Federal commander could not contact higher officier (or when historically he couldn't), should he go out of its way to obbey the State governor?

no, he should not bend over backwards to appealse the local government, but he should take thier requests seriously.

(i must state that i am not a US citizen, but i am a member of the British army)

a Imperial commander is not required to obey any orders that come a non Imperial.e. himself, his subsector commander, the sector command, etc). he is not required to obey an order form a Imperial commander form outside his direct chain of command (what i was on about before with Commodore d'Example and the OC 212th fleet. the Admiral isn't in d'Example chain of command, so he can't just order d'Example to follow him, but has to convince d'Example to do it on his own accord)

he will, however, be expected to co-operate with the local, non imperial assets in the area he works in (namely, the planetry goverments, thier armed forces, and the local noble representatives). this means that if the local planetry govenor comes to him asking for a few patrol cruisers to support the planetry navy in a anti-pirate sweep, then the imperial navy will expect the commander to say yes.

if the govenor asks for a squad of marines to act as his personal bodyguard and toy soldiers to show off at parades, the Navy will tell the govenor to shove off.


the above assumes that the Imperial forces have not been given orders to the effect of "the planetry govenor is in your chain of command, and is your superior"

 

[rancke]

I'd like to see the canon that states it consists predominantly of low jump traders travelling many parsecs past good ports to deliver rare cargos to far flung destinations.

I take it you don't actually have any canon source for your statement then?

Since I haven't suggested that this would be the predominant form of trade, there's luckily no need to provide a canon source to that effect. What I am saying is that there will be some long-distance trade; the volume will drop drastically with distance, but there will be some. Source: GT:Far Trader.

So you are suggesting that a trader loads up at one destination then travels 120-131 parsecs (30 weeks at jump 4, 20 weeks at jump 6) before selling his cargo... Thats one or two deliveries a year, assuming you can get a similarly high value cargo heading back.

It's more likely that he'll travel several subsectors with a contract to deliver the freight, then unload and return to his home port with another contracted load of freight. The original load of freight will be transferred to another ship that will travel several more subsectors, and so on.

I might add that time-critical usually means perishable. Time critical, perishable = small cargos, shipped often. Meaning it becomes really hard to fill a trader, but you must maintain the service. Of course that assumes there is such a thing as a perishable cargo by TL13-15.

If nothing else there's always passengers.

If I wanted Terran Roses on Muan Gwi, I'd build hot houses, not send a buyer to Terra and pay a premium for a dedicated trader earning no other income for that period. If I have to I'll buy a licence to grow and use the Terran brand name. I definitely would not import them.

Then they wouldn't be Terran roses, they'd be Muan Gwi roses.

On tea, the British climate is poor for tea growing, something about it being too cold.

Exactly.

On china, France imported far more Sheffield china than Ming china. Ming china was worth a premium because of its rarity in Europe and because examples worth shipping to Europe had art value. However by far the bulk of the trade by international shipping was between Britain and Europe.

Exactly.

Thats a J6 jump to Fosy's Class A starport, refuel and a J5 jump to Mora. A Book 5 975ton J6 M2 Trader will do that carrying 100 ton of cargo.

More likely a J6 to Fosey and transfer the cargo to a J5 ship. Using a J6 ship on a J5 route is wasteful.

The cargo is time critical, so needs regular departures, say 7 days a week.

Or once every 40 days with the cargo prepared for shipment just before each departure.

To cover time in jump space 14 days, refueling at Fosy say a day, discharge cargo, crew shore leave and embark new cargo say 4 days. Total 19 days each way. We need 38 ships. Allow for ships out of service for maintenance and we need 40 ships. Enough so we can justify a ship construction discount

Load cargo and depart from Rhylanor, 1 day; time in jump, 6-8 days; land on Fosey and unload cargo, 1 day; load onto other ship and depart Fosey, 1 day; time in jump, 6-8 days; land on Mora and unload, 1 day. Return to Rhylanor, same in reverse. Total average 18 days each way.

Ship cost is 573.8MCr (with construction discount) crew=8

That's probably where our biggest disagreement is. I'm using the T4 ship design rules (QSDS1.5) as having the fewest flaws. One difference is that power plant fuel doesn't take up the several percents of ship volume that HG rules demand. At the low end it doesn't make much difference to the cargo capacity, but for J6 ships it makes a big difference.

The resulting costs are roughly four times more per parsec for jump-6 than for jump-3 (And jump-3 costs are lower than Cr1000/dT). Passenger costs are similar. I can't find the file right now -- I think it's on my old computer -- so I can't be more specific than that.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

I take it you don't actually have any canon source for your statement then?

Since I haven't suggested that this would be the predominant form of trade, there's luckily no need to provide a canon source to that effect. What I am saying is that there will be some long-distance trade; the volume will drop drastically with distance, but there will be some. Source: GT:Far Trader.

And likewise I'm not suggesting that goods from Core wouldn't end up on Mora. I do believe that the volume will be so low as to be near insignificant, which you (& GT:FT) seem to agree with. Its the nature of those goods (50,000 dtons plus) and the mechanics of getting them there that we have turned to discussing.

And all in the framework of answering the question, is there likely to be a commercial reason for a J6 route between Core and Mora.

It's more likely that he'll travel several subsectors with a contract to deliver the freight, then unload and return to his home port with another contracted load of freight. The original load of freight will be transferred to another ship that will travel several more subsectors, and so on.

I don't have a problem with that. I can easily envisage cargo traveling via J4 x-boat routes that way.

The difficulty now though, is to justify the J6 route, you now need to justify a separate J6 business case at every system stop en route. And if that can be done, or close enough that the entire route is profitable, we would have Canon mention of a MegaCorp doing it in cheaper and more efficiently.

Then they wouldn't be Terran roses, they'd be Muan Gwi roses.

True, unless I bought or stole the use of the brand name Terran.
Here's an article on a French winery happily making and selling "Kiwi Cuvee" in Europe. There are no Kiwi's or Kiwi produce involved in the making of French "Kiwi Cuvee".
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article6980336.ece

Or once every 40 days with the cargo prepared for shipment just before each departure.

Obviously perishable then. They are likely to have extended the lifespan of perishable goods by a few weeks by TL13, specifically so the slower cheaper route can transport the goods to foreign markets at an economical price. The cost savings can be significant and led to earlier developments like refrigerated shipping for meat exports. And more recently the introduction of Carbon Monoxide into meat packaging.

Sure, stuff will still perish, but we cope today with fruit & veg from around the world arriving in our fridge with a shelf life of a week. If by TL13 the product can cope with a 3 or 4 week journey and still arrive in our fridge with a week of shelf life left, I think the exporters will use the cheaper route and pocket the tens of thousands of credits saved per ton shipped.

As examples, two of the most time sensitive bulk cargos (using aircraft rather than ships) leaving NZ are flowers and fish. Flowers, we take advantage of our reversed seasons to sell them north of the equator (obviously not a driver to export flowers multi-parsecs) and for fish we sell particularly high value tuna -chilled but not frozen, direct to Japanese fish markets. But it is unlikely Muan Gwi will have developed a taste for fresh NZ tuna. If it does though I'm sure investment in preserving the lifespan of the fresh product will follow.

Return to Rhylanor, same in reverse. Total average 18 days each way.

I thought I may have been a bit generous with the shore leave. I should have instead costed in extra crews to allow for time off and holidays.

That's probably where our biggest disagreement is. I'm using the T4 ship design rules (QSDS1.5) as having the fewest flaws. One difference is that power plant fuel doesn't take up the several percents of ship volume that HG rules demand. At the low end it doesn't make much difference to the cargo capacity, but for J6 ships it makes a big difference.

The resulting costs are roughly four times more per parsec for jump-6 than for jump-3 (And jump-3 costs are lower than Cr1000/dT). Passenger costs are similar. I can't find the file right now -- I think it's on my old computer -- so I can't be more specific than that.

No problem. It sounds though, as if you have found an inconsistency (one of many of course across all the systems) where T4 J6 ships may be commercially viable and in earlier versions of canon they are not.

I'm intending to pick up that cd from MM at some stage. If you are using it I'll take that as a recommendation

 

[rancke]

No problem. It sounds though, as if you have found an inconsistency (one of many of course across all the systems) where T4 J6 ships may be commercially viable and in earlier versions of canon they are not.

The discrepancy, however, is that earlier versions of canon features fusion power plants of unbelievable inefficiency. The change isn't a mistake; it's a deliberate, considered retcon. As such, I'm very much inclined to feel that T20 and MGT are the ones that are in error when (if? I don't know if MGT does it too) they go back to having power plants guzzle tons of fuel in weeks.

I'm intending to pick up that cd from MM at some stage. If you are using it I'll take that as a recommendation

Just to be clear: T4's Starships is a trainwreck. It was so bad that it inspired Guy Garnett to create a fan project to fix the multiple issues. The result was Quick Ship Design System. You can find the latest version of that available for download on the BITS site here: http://www.bitsuk.net/Archive/GameRules/GameRules.html.


Hans

 

[Matt123]

Hmm, I can't argue with that logic lol.

I'll pop over to the bits site over the weekend & have a look at that link. I'll be picking up T4 regardless, I've already got several PDFs & enjoyed them (PE & M0 for example).

 

[Murph]

The more I think about it, the more impossible the Vargr results in the Rebellion become. Any large system would have at least a megaton of SBDs ranging from the 400 ton ones, to 19,999 ton 6g battleship killers. There is no TL 11/12 Vargr corsair who can take these, especially TL 13/14/15. I look at the there being a light crust defense, with larger forces in the interior which show up as the local non-jump forces wear down the attacker.

 

[Omnivore]

A few possible scenarios for Vargr success:
1) Stealth through misdirection - the corsairs jumped into system a few at a time following normal trade routes masquerading as merchants. This could even be extended to faking emergency situations resulting in the SDB's being pulled out of position and into ambushes.
2) Barbarian horde strategy - while not very well supported in any Traveller starship combat rules I'm aware of, given sufficient odds lower tech should be capable of countering higher tech if they are willing to take a high number of casualties in the process.

A case in point for the barbarian horde strategy - consider the use of 'casaba howitzer' type nuclear warheads - shaped nuclear charges emitting extremely high temperature plasma and wide spectrum radiation which are capable of standoff attack. These warheads can be constructed from late TL6 onwards. If the corsairs fired off a few cargo holds full of missiles with this type of warhead off at relatively short ranges, even a TL15 SDB would be in serious trouble.

 

[rancke]

A few possible scenarios for Vargr success:
1) Stealth through misdirection - the corsairs jumped into system a few at a time following normal trade routes masquerading as merchants.

How would they do that? Since they're not merchant ships, they can't behave as merchant ships (i.e. arrive at the jump limit, indetify themselves, get a flight path assigned, and proceed immediately to the starport, undergo customs inspection, conduct trade, and leave again).

This could even be extended to faking emergency situations resulting in the SDB's being pulled out of position and into ambushes.

Possible, although the lone corsair (more than one ship getting into trouble simultaneously sounds awfully suspicious to me) had better hope he don't attract more rescures than he can handle. That's assuming he attracts any SDBs at all and not a dedicated rescue vessel.

2) Barbarian horde strategy - while not very well supported in any Traveller starship combat rules I'm aware of, given sufficient odds lower tech should be capable of countering higher tech if they are willing to take a high number of casualties in the process.

Some Vargr worlds have TL15. The real problem with corsairs raiding defended systems is that a warship costs a lot more to buy than a horse, so the number of barbarians is severely limited and battle damage costs a packet. Repairs comes out of a corsair's profits. Defenders, OTOH, are likely to be national ships and be able to pass the cost along to taxpayers.

Don't forget that the original portrayal of Vargr corsairs had the Kforuzeng, the biggest corsair band in Uthe Subsector be a score of small ships unable to match a single light cruiser together.


Hans

 

[RainOfSteel]

The more I think about it, the more impossible the Vargr results in the Rebellion become. Any large system would have at least a megaton of SBDs ranging from the 400 ton ones, to 19,999 ton 6g battleship killers. There is no TL 11/12 Vargr corsair who can take these, especially TL 13/14/15. I look at the there being a light crust defense, with larger forces in the interior which show up as the local non-jump forces wear down the attacker.

The results of the Rebellion were largely accomplished via authorial fiat.

My personal (and unsupported) guess is: The exact nature and composition of local system defenses was not really thoroughly considered in the 1987 era when the Rebellion was conceived. The Rebellion was authored for the purpose of shattering the Imperium in order to set up a more dynamic "international situation" amongst the stars. Apparently there was a vocal group of Traveller fans who felt the OTU was too static and therefore boring, and the Rebellion was GDW's answer to these concerns.

Regrettably, another group arose after the publication of the Rebellion, one that really did not like it because they felt that some of its events made no sense or could not have occurred as they were described.

While I fit into the later group, my real problem with MT, the one that kept me from spending my money (in very limited supply for me at the time) on it, was all the errata. I am the type who is offended by the appearance of a single typographical error, much less entire products riddled with actual rules errors.

 

[Garyius2003]

Like most empires, the 3I wants defense in depth (see every command and/or staff college ever) but they end up having the local baron/count convincing the duke to convince the sector admiral that world X is so special they need three forward based cruisers and a battlewagon...

and soon enough you have America with a defense in depth theory and half the military within the range of short range nukes (fleets).

 

[McPerth]

The more I think about it, the more impossible the Vargr results in the Rebellion become. Any large system would have at least a megaton of SBDs ranging from the 400 ton ones, to 19,999 ton 6g battleship killers. There is no TL 11/12 Vargr corsair who can take these, especially TL 13/14/15. I look at the there being a light crust defense, with larger forces in the interior which show up as the local non-jump forces wear down the attacker.

I fully agree with you at this point.

A few possible scenarios for Vargr success:
1) Stealth through misdirection - the corsairs jumped into system a few at a time following normal trade routes masquerading as merchants. This could even be extended to faking emergency situations resulting in the SDB's being pulled out of position and into ambushes.

I guess the Imperium don't trust the Vargr enough for this strategy to work. I guess near the Vargr frontier, any Vargr merchant is carefully watched, and any emergency would be responded by sending more than one SDB. If the system is importan enough, I guess any such emergency response would be backed by (at least) a heavy SDB (in fact a BR in SDB role).

2) Barbarian horde strategy - while not very well supported in any Traveller starship combat rules I'm aware of, given sufficient odds lower tech should be capable of countering higher tech if they are willing to take a high number of casualties in the process.

For important worlds, defenses would be quite difficult to evercome.

I really laughted when read about the loss of Gemid (Vland 1903 A423979-G). With about 7 billion inhabitants, and so close to the Vargr border, I guess they have quite a large Planetary Navy. They can afford several TL 16 30 kdton BRs as a planetary fleet, and I guess one of them may make short of a full squadron of TL 12 CAs as shown in Rebelion sourcebook.

Those BRs, armed with a J or N rated MG, with Good agility and 10 rated computers would have a kill ratio of about 30-35 ships on 36 turns, while, due to agility and computer diference would be imprevious to enemy fire.

Using MT rules (CT:HG rules would give you similar results):

any shoot form the BRs (assuming J rated MGs) would have to roll a 11+ (difficult) to hit, with a +9 modifier for table and +4 per computer difference. Even if the CA has agility 6 (quite difficult in MT, more so at TL 12 with a jump capable, spinal armed ship), it would hit on a 4+, penetrate its Meson screen (at TL 12 maximum MS is 1) with a modifier of +6 per table and +4 per computer difference (so +8, that is the maximum, failing to penetrate on eyes), penetrate its configuration with at least +3 per table (if config 7, that is unlikely, more probably +5 per config 1) and +4 again per computer, so failing on eyes too (3- if dispersed structure), and roll 10 times in radiation and interior explosion tables (so acheaving most times a Fuel Tanks Shattered result and 1-2 criticals). Now imagine with N rated MGs...

the CAs fire, on the other hand, would be penalized with a -4 modifier to hit and penetrate for computer difference, agility would be easier to attain for lack of need for jump fuel (remember, they are BRs), and Meson Screens (if the Vargr have meson guns at all) would be quite stronger, with cupled with the computer diference would make mesons nearly useless. If heavily armored, PAs would be equally ineffective, and missiles would have a hard time to penetrate even factor 5-6 defenses (let's say a fusion gun on defensive role).

Even if those BRs were defeated, you must then force your way against the deep meson sites (and those would not be J rated).

Sure the Vargr are capable to buid TL 15 ships (after all there are some TL 15 planets on the extents), but as the Vargr raider bands are portrayed on OTU, I have serious dubts the yhave many cruisers, and less so many TL 15 ones

Of course this barbarian horde strategy could work on lesser worlds, but the critical ones would be nearly immune to it, and some mobile forces (hunter-killing TFs would find them sooner or latter. The control of a zone is achieved by controlling the HiPop worlds.

I keep on thinking that the Vargr invasion is impossible using the HG/MT rules, as they would be defeated and repulsed quite soon.

A case in point for the barbarian horde strategy - consider the use of 'casaba howitzer' type nuclear warheads - shaped nuclear charges emitting extremely high temperature plasma and wide spectrum radiation which are capable of standoff attack. These warheads can be constructed from late TL6 onwards. If the corsairs fired off a few cargo holds full of missiles with this type of warhead off at relatively short ranges, even a TL15 SDB would be in serious trouble.

In order to launch those missiles, the ships would have to close with the Planetary Navy ships, and, being in full war rules of engagement as they are, I don't believe they could do so. If a Naval squadron detects a fleet of 'merchant ships' closing, I guess they would first warn them to keep away and, if not obeyed, destroy them at long range, before those weapons could be launched. If launched at long range, anti-missile defenses would make short of them.

The results of the Rebellion were largely accomplished via authorial fiat.

My personal (and unsupported) guess is: The exact nature and composition of local system defenses was not really thoroughly considered in the 1987 era when the Rebellion was conceived. The Rebellion was authored for the purpose of shattering the Imperium in order to set up a more dynamic "international situation" amongst the stars. Apparently there was a vocal group of Traveller fans who felt the OTU was too static and therefore boring, and the Rebellion was GDW's answer to these concerns.

Regrettably, another group arose after the publication of the Rebellion, one that really did not like it because they felt that some of its events made no sense or could not have occurred as they were described.

While I fit into the later group, my real problem with MT, the one that kept me from spending my money (in very limited supply for me at the time) on it, was all the errata. I am the type who is offended by the appearance of a single typographical error, much less entire products riddled with actual rules errors.

Fully agree on that too. We accept Vargr invasions as an act of faith to allow the Rebellion setting to be as it is, not because we feel it possible (at least with the same starship combat rules MT offers us).