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IISS Special (Combat) Rescue

oh sure, they'll respect them all the live-long day happily and enthusiastically. so long as the imperium itself is, and it's owners are, respected first.
The Imperium stood quietly by and allowed Nebelthorn, a member nation (and a relative pipsqueak of a member nation), to sentence Sergei hault-Oberlindes, the heir to an Imperial baron, to twenty years' prison for striking a local police officer. Marc hault-Oberlindes was forced to resort to extra-legal means to break his son out of prison.


Hans
 
The Traveller Adventure has many instances where imperial citizen 'rights' are ignored due to local law/custom.
Not by the Imperium itself. The member nations are allowed internal autonomy. This would include freedom from the Imperium meddling with the rights of member citizens.

Here's my (non-canonical) explanation of Imperial rights:

Imperial Edict 9

Edict 9 is often referred to as the Imperial Bill of Rights or, more often, the Imperial List of Obligations. It is essentially a restatement of the Sylean Federation's Bill of Rights with a few cosmetic amendments and one crucial addition, article 31:

Article 31

Nothing in this Edict may be interpreted as implying for the Imperium any right or obligation to enforce any of these rights withing the jurisdiction of any member world, except as provided for in individual treaties of membership of the Imperium.​

The edict was Cleon's way of reassuring the citizens of former Sylean Federation worlds that they would not lose their civil rights while at the same time reassuring the governments of prospective member worlds that the Imperium would not impose those very same civil rights on them.

The Imperium does not undertake to enforce the rights of individual citizens of member worlds. But it does uphold them when and if an Imperial citizen comes before an Imperial court or administrative instance.

Example: A world has laws giving the head of a family complete control of all members. A family member enters the Imperial Consulate and joins an Imperial organization. The family head demands that his errant child be returned to him. The Imperium tells him to take a hike.​
This neatly reconciles canonical mentions of rights of Imperial subjects with canonical examples of member worlds and nations violating the very same.


Hans
 
I'm not really sure where the law enforcement aspect arose. I was thinking more of a SEALs / Delta Force / USAF Special Operations, extraction / anti-terrorist unit, but perhaps more focused on extracting personnel in very alien territories.
It arose from the two canonical descriptions of Scouts quoted by Whulorigan in post #4 of this thread.


Hans
 
Not by the Imperium itself. The member nations are allowed internal autonomy. This would include freedom from the Imperium meddling with the rights of member citizens.

Here's my (non-canonical) explanation of Imperial rights:

Imperial Edict 9

Edict 9 is often referred to as the Imperial Bill of Rights or, more often, the Imperial List of Obligations. It is essentially a restatement of the Sylean Federation's Bill of Rights with a few cosmetic amendments and one crucial addition, article 31:

Article 31

Nothing in this Edict may be interpreted as implying for the Imperium any right or obligation to enforce any of these rights withing the jurisdiction of any member world, except as provided for in individual treaties of membership of the Imperium.​

The edict was Cleon's way of reassuring the citizens of former Sylean Federation worlds that they would not lose their civil rights while at the same time reassuring the governments of prospective member worlds that the Imperium would not impose those very same civil rights on them.

The Imperium does not undertake to enforce the rights of individual citizens of member worlds. But it does uphold them when and if an Imperial citizen comes before an Imperial court or administrative instance.

Example: A world has laws giving the head of a family complete control of all members. A family member enters the Imperial Consulate and joins an Imperial organization. The family head demands that his errant child be returned to him. The Imperium tells him to take a hike.​
This neatly reconciles canonical mentions of rights of Imperial subjects with canonical examples of member worlds and nations violating the very same.


Hans
The Imperium turns a blind eye to the 'rights' its citizens have - otherwise they would have to enforce said rights and intervene in a lot of worlds...
 
The Imperium turns a blind eye to the 'rights' its citizens have - otherwise they would have to enforce said rights and intervene in a lot of worlds...
The first line of article 1 of the Imperium's foundation document (the Warrant of Restoration) prohibits it from enforcing anything within the jurisdiction of member worlds, except as provided for in Imperial law. Which is why I posit that Imperial law does not provide for such enforcement.


Hans
 
But it doesn't even enforce so called Imperial law if The Traveller Adventure (not to mention most of the double adventures) are anything to go by.

The Imperium turns a blind eye providing you pay your taxes...
 
The first line of article 1 of the Imperium's foundation document (the Warrant of Restoration) prohibits it from enforcing anything within the jurisdiction of member worlds, except as provided for in Imperial law. Which is why I posit that Imperial law does not provide for such enforcement.


Hans

But it doesn't even enforce so called Imperial law if The Traveller Adventure (not to mention most of the double adventures) are anything to go by.

The Imperium turns a blind eye providing you pay your taxes...

Reading the JTAS articles on law in the Imperium I get the impression that "Imperial Law" is way way above the level of individual sophont rights and is concerned more with insuring the cohesion of the whole Imperium. Allowing the rights of individuals to be over looked in the interest of the greater good might be a principle of Imperial Law.

Things we know about Imperial Law
- It's concerned with treason against the Imperium
- It allows member worlds great autonomy within their own jurisdiction.
- It outlaws slavery.

That last one on slavery might at first glance seem to be concerned with a human or sophont right to freedom, but its probably actually more about economics and outlawing production through slave labor thats would unbalance the trade model in the OTU.

Perhaps we make the mistake of assuming the people in the Imperium have the same inalienable rights that we are supposed to have. In a feudal society rights only go with responsibilities between master and serf.
 
Interesting, although I did try to put forth the idea of scouts as having military operative powers when in territories (or in times of war) that had loosely defined jurisdiction.

I'm not really sure where the law enforcement aspect arose. I was thinking more of a SEALs / Delta Force / USAF Special Operations, extraction / anti-terrorist unit, but perhaps more focused on extracting personnel in very alien territories.

I think what you originally described fits perfectly with the description of S-3 or the Special Security Service.

I'd add to your list the FBI's HRT (Hostage Rescue Teams) and the CIA's "Operators".

I think that idea of the Scouts as an "Intelligence Agency" with its own in house "trained killers" and the idea that the Security Branch have, to quote Marc's and Loren's original JTAS #06 article "the widest powers of any Imperial law enforcement agency" have sparked off thoughts about what kind of shadowy tool of empire the IISS actually is.

Is it the Dark Side of the Imperium? There are all kinds of modern day parallels which I'm not going to go into outside The Pit with intelligence agencies and the transmission of data, but there's also the fact that the acronym for the service itself contains the letters "SS" :devil::CoW::devil:

Oh and don't the Scouts have a youth wing called Space Cadets? All that time spent fearing the SolSec guys and we never suspected the Scouts.
 
I think what you originally described fits perfectly with the description of S-3 or the Special Security Service.

I'd add to your list the FBI's HRT (Hostage Rescue Teams) and the CIA's "Operators".

actually, more likely it would be one-off teams assembled to deal with extra-jurisdictional interplanetary brigands/pirates/otherwise-lawless who have access to jump. get a report, assemble a team and a ship, spend six months tracking them down and shutting them down. now that indeed might be a scout service function.

that sounds like a good adventure.
 
actually, more likely it would be one-off teams assembled to deal with extra-jurisdictional interplanetary brigands/pirates/otherwise-lawless who have access to jump. get a report, assemble a team and a ship, spend six months tracking them down and shutting them down. now that indeed might be a scout service function.

that sounds like a good adventure.

Except that doesn't reflect whats written.


GT: First In
Security Branch members tend to remain in Security for most of their careers, set aside from the rest of the Service by their special training and responsibilities. A few members are recruited for the Special Security Service, an elite commando detachment whose task is to recover IISS personnel or equipment when they fall under hostile control. “S-3” is not on a par with the Sylean Rangers or Imperial Marines, but within their limited sphere of responsibility they are quite formidable.

You can't convince me that an ad-hoc team of Scouts assembled for a single mission qualify as an "elite commando detachment" who will have trained together and practiced their roles in a focused area of combat search and rescue (CSAR), hostage rescue or assets recovery.

CT: Book 06 Scouts
The Security Branch is charged with providing security and law enforcement for the Scout Service. Security Branch Scouts serve as police enforcers on Scout property, as commandos or shipboard light troops, for special Scout activities, and as clandestine agents for Intelligence Branch. Agents of the IISS Security Branch have great authority to arrest, detain, or question individuals suspected of violations of Imperial law, and can demand cooperation from local authorities as the need arises.

Likewise I can't fathom why in the Imperium that "rules the space between the stars" any crime would be considered extra jurisdictional. Imperial Law (or High Law or law that is above subsector and local/planetary law) is chiefly concerned with crimes against the Imperium such as treason and espionage.

Brigands and pirates with starships are a hazard to safe navigation and should be pursued and prosecuted with the guns of the Imperial Navy.

Other law breakers have to make planetfall at the end of a jump. If they are detected at a Starport the Starport security or migration control can detain them and hand them over to MoJ agents.

If you're thinking about tackling a large criminal organization well there are plenty of real world examples of multi-agency task forces. Scouts (coastguard), FBI (MoJ) USN and RN (Imperial Navy) and international police organizations (MoJ and planetary LEOs) all co-operate to tackle drug smugglers in the Caribbean.


Just to be quite clear: Scouts are not the "Imperial Police Force", what we've discovered is that they are an Imperial agency with intelligence gathering and law enforcement powers with a paramilitary wing to execute those powers.
 
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About IISS intelligence, remember that in MT, the "True Strephon" is said to ressort to them when made his stance, as IN and other agencies hadalready choosen sides (Rebellion Sourcebook, page 41).
 
Except that doesn't reflect whats written.

well, I was thinking along the lines of something that 1) might actually work and 2) be interesting to players. come on! don't you want to be like the texas rangers and get a good piece of horseflesh - er, j4m6 ship - under you and the brand new six-gun - er, battledress and fgmp-14 - in your hand and go tear-assing around after the bad guys? power, authority, and righteousness! it doesn't get any better than that ....
 
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well, I was thinking along the lines of something that 1) might actually work and 2) be interesting to players. come on! don't you want to be like the texas rangers and get a good piece of horseflesh - er, j4m6 ship - under you and the brand new six-gun - er, battledress and fgmp-14 - and go tear-assing around after the bad guys? power, authority, and righteousness! it doesn't get any better than that ....

Yeah okay I hate being the guy that says "but to quote the holy book of canon"....

In a Space Opera setting the posse of Scouts mounting their ship and heading out into the deep black on the trail of the asteroid rustlers works.

But the thing I like about the Imperium is the government and its agencies are painted in broad enough strokes to fit them to the situation the players find themselves in.

The Navy hunts Pirates....Local law deals with most crimes....Imperial Law is about treason, sedition and crimes by nobles....Scouts scout....S-3 is the CSAR arm of the IISS


Interesting aside for anyone who's interested in the whole law enforcement in the Imperium. i've been reading T4 Milleu 0 which mentions the Sylean Constabulary, the police force on Sylea which after Year 0 comes under the control of the Ministry of Justice.

The Texas Rangers and several other mounted police forces were inspired by the Royal Irish Constabulary. Maybe there is a role for the Sylean Constabulary as an origin point for Imperial Rangers/Constabulary?
 
In a Space Opera setting the posse of Scouts mounting their ship and heading out into the deep black on the trail of the asteroid rustlers works.

works in a "realistic" setting too. I might try running this ....

The Navy hunts Pirates

they could hunt outlaws, and probably do just for the experience. "give the lieutenant a boat, see what he can do." but their primary mission is external security, and looking for some jumping miscreant somewhere would involve not only ship's gunnery but lots and lots of ground activity too, and of an undefined nature and an indeterminate duration. anything that could be defined as a navy would have little patience with that. so yeah, if an outlaw wanders into naval gunsights they'll shoot, but to go looking for them where they live would be well within scout training and service authorization.

so. there's your scout special. maybe not rescue, but combat certainly.
 
Most Imperial law enforcement will be MoJ, and have cooperative agreements, bilateral or multilateral, with member worlds. So while the local world may have the Imperials stop at the 10D, and/or the XT line, usually they won't. MoJ folks will have locals do most of their strong-arm stuff, usually through a joint Imperial-local task force, which is about 5%/95% on the manpower, and 80%/20% on the money and tech. Such Task Forces will normally have mutual cooperation agreements between worlds in neighboring systems, and may thus be multi-jurisdictional. That is not to say that these are required or even strongly encouraged by the MoJ, but rather they are found to be mutually beneficial in most cases by most parties. The MoJ's stock in trade is garnering cooperation while respecting the sovereignty of the member worlds. The IISS is almost always sought for their wide contacts and expertise, and are free with intel support for such law enforcement endeavors, but usually they keep their relatively minor muscle for their own in-house pet projects.

Scouts hunt pirates, and the IN kills them. Scouts have law enforcement powers, but more important things to do, usually, than to focus on law enforcement. Combat Search and Rescue is usually part of the combat force, which is to say IN. CSAR in the IISS is an outgrowth of the fact that sometimes agents get snatched. Of these cases, usually there is either an exchange, or a covert rescue attempt, if the agent is valuable enough. Sometimes, rarely, an asset or agent that is valuable enough may be held in a secure enough facility or missing in a hot enough area that the S-3 may used in a CSAR or HR role. This is the exceptional case, though. If the local IISS has a pet project, he may actually send S-3 folks on it; or he may decide that they are too valuable, and the pet project too obscure to use such high profile assets, and cobble something together out of DD's. Stranger things have happened in the black....
 
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Scouts hunt pirates, and the IN kills them.


that could work too. but don't think "pirates", think "outlaws". that broader view brings the issue into sharper focus.

here's another aspect. the perfidious zhodani will have quite a few intel operations going - insurgency support, economic subversion, contact rigging - along the fringes of the imperium. navy and marines and local law enforcement would be a poor counter to this, but the scouts would be right there in evaluating and opposing it.
 
well, I was thinking along the lines of something that 1) might actually work and 2) be interesting to players.
That argument might fly if you couldn't have adventures that worked and was interesting to players with the canonical setting. But you can, easily.

The existence of elite Scout teams with the authority to make arrests doesn't mean that you can't have situations where such teams are unavailable. That's when you make up and ad-hoc group of PCs and friendly NPCs.


Hans
 
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